Future of games like WITP

[siRkid]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

A Demo covering the attack on PH would last about 2 minutes and not even give them a taste of the game.

They want a demo, tell them to buy UV. If they like that, they will love WITP. There is the Demo.

If I had my way, I'd make UV a free demo.

[siRkid]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Hey Kid, great to see you up and running, all cleaned up from the storm?

Yep, getting my life back together. Still have not got the insurance check. Sad thing happened. My adjuster was working another claim and fell from the roof and broke his neck. He did not survive.[:(]

[siRkid]

Actually Terrible Swift Sword has been done. Talonsoft's "Gettysburg" title in their Battleground series certainly looked and felt like a great port of the SPI monster game. In fact, the entire series was great... Shiloh, Antietam, Bull Run, and Chicamauga plus the four Napoleonic titles. And the really neat thing was the way designer John Tillett programmed a 32 bit patch and posted it on his website to update the games alolng with an editor package!

Funny I've been playng Napoleon in Russia this week for a break. Still a great game.

[rhondabrwn]

A fundamentally solid game can provide outstanding play value for eternity, despite weakness in meeting current "state of the art" grahics standards, but a weak game coupled with flashy graphics and animation will quickly die away from sight.

Talonsoft's Battleground series has met the test of time and is always fun, challenging, and educational to play. I've got plenty of games with more flash, but nothing pulls me in like a campaign game of Gettysburg. I think WITP is going to have that same kind of ultimate staying power.

It's also ironic that of all the computer wargames that I have owned and played in my lifetime, Grigsby's original "Guadalcanal" game has always stood out in my memory. It's no wonder that WITP excited me as soon as I heard about it.

It would be really sweet if UV was a free "demo" game though! I can't afford to buy it on top of WITP, but I would like to play it and relive some of my nostalgia for the original "Guadalcanal"!

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: Kid

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

A Demo covering the attack on PH would last about 2 minutes and not even give them a taste of the game.

They want a demo, tell them to buy UV. If they like that, they will love WITP. There is the Demo.

If I had my way, I'd make UV a free demo.

Oh YES! Good thinking there. UV as a free download would really be a great vehicle to pull more people in "the Matrix". Actually, it was the Steel Panther's freebie that brought me to Matrixgames in the first place and then I got excited by all of the projects underway and now it's my #1 stop for future game purchases! Count me in for GG's World at War AND the future World in Flames project!

[Desertmole]

Let me tell you about revisionist history. My eldest daughter (now 22) was taking a World History class as a HS Junior, and it got to the WWII part. The teacher started in about how the US started WWII so that they could drop nukes on Japan. She protested and asked why he hadn't mentioned Pearl Harbor (most students responded with "What's a Pearl Harbor?" [:(]). She and the teacher got into an arguement over it and she was thrown out of class, with threat of a three-day suspension. Can you guess the discussions that went on in the Principal's office when I got there? Needless to say, that teacher no longer teached World History.

[LittleJoe]

My History teacher last year thought the D in D-Day stood for Dunkirk [:@]

We had about 2-3 Lessons on WW2 both about Hiroshima and Nagasaki [8|]

[fbastos]

The teacher started in about how the US started WWII

He cut only 10 years (1931 and the Mukden incident)... not to talk about the re-militarization of the Ruhr in 1935, which might have clipped Hitler's ambitions should France and England have reacted to that...

F

[ColFrost]

In 1991, when I was student teaching in the Reading (PA) School District, on December 2nd, I asked my AP history (Advanced Placement) class what fifty year anniversary was going to happen in five days. No one could tell me. So I made an assignment, to all my classes, to go home and watch one hour of television on Pearl Harbor, and write a paragraph on it. I suggested David Brinkley's special on ABC.

I received an official complaint from the best female student's mother in my AP class, that I had told her daughter that she had to watch Brinkley, and it was on at the same time as Knot's Landing, and how dare I cause the mother to miss the show when she pays my salary? I was not allowed to give an imcomplete to the student.

And people wonder why no one knows anything about history.

[Rob322]

ORIGINAL: MadmanRick

I seems to me that the lack of interest in wargames is a fairly complex problem. It isn't as simple as stating that RTS games or Nintendo have taken away their interest, although this is surely a truism. I think it also has to do with the fact that for anyone under the age of 30, Vietnam is ancient history not to mention the Second World War. Also keep in mind that with history revisionism, not as much emphasis is truly placed upon the Second World War nowadays. I mean I remember growing up and after studying WW2, I searched out every book I could find (particularly on the Pacific Theatre). You rarely find that type of interest anymore. The wargaming hobby is far from alone in this type of problem, scale modelling is also going through the exact same thing. That hobby also tends to blame its' woes on video games et al, but again I think the problem is much more complex.
For most of us, we read about the wars in school, then we came across the books and then later the great board games drew us in and we were hooked for life. Nowadays, you aren't as likely to spend a month or more learning about WW2, the books are there, but how many libraries can afford to have the selection that they had when we were young? I won't even start with the lack of great board games. I mean I love computer games, but nothing can replace having those maps/counters in front of you. I used to just look at all the different counters from my games (when I couldn't find an opponent) and dream of them (ok, so I'm a freak). But, mere sprites on a screen can't quite attract the way those cardboard and paper items could. I'll never forget the first time I saw SPI's War In The Pacific actually set up, I finally TRULY realized how huge the Pacific theatre really was! Before that I knew, but I didn't know. So anyway, that is my take on some of the problem and I am sure that I didn't touch on the complete issue.

Rick

Couldn't resist responding to this. It's not surprising, humans don't seem very good in general in dealing with complex systems or basically anything that's not directly in front of their nose. Throw in the element of time and it's all gone. The sad truth is, Americans are increasingly uneducated about ALL history, not merely military. This blind spot will likely cause us more problems in the future.

My feelings as to why the general gaming public doesn't seem to get off on games like WITP and what should be done about it are decidedly mixed. I mean, part of me is glad that most computer gamers out there aren't interested in this game. I believe that if there were a greater market for this, it would inevitably start the process of dumbing the game down. Turns would become 1 week or 2 weeks long at minimum, graphics would be enhanced but likely at the expense of deph of gameplay, and individual ships, planes, commanders, etc. would be subsumed into a generic spread. You could get through the whole war in a couple of weeks without killing your life. It would result in a cliff notes version of the game. Entertaining? Maybe. But not the game that I (and I sense many on here) want.

And to me that is inevitable. You would need to dumb it down for the masses. And don't blame DOOM. DOOM only gives the masses what they've always wanted. It's sad I suppose but that's the reality of our world. I was a board gamer in the 70s and 80s and was in a tight circle of dedicated gamers, who loved history and sci-fi and all of that. We wanted realism and dedication to the way things were. Risk and Battleship were good enough to play with your idiot cousin but just try breaking out Squad Leader when company comes over! Even then, we knew we were an extremely NARROW circle. We were those nerds in the library playing on the weekend to the jocks of the world who were always more amused by the surface elements of life. It's not like DOOM and other games like that came upon a literate and engaged culture on historical matters and transformed them into a gob of twitch and click drones. People back then were not all that interested in wargames, same as today. A family friend who ran a game shop confessed freely that it was always the other products, the models, the rockets, the mass market games, etc. the kept him in business, not wargames. If computer wargames had a better day in the past it was because I suspect that computers used to be the province of the hobbyist (growing up in the Silicon Valley I remember going to Homebrew Computer club meetings with my dad). The computer hobbyist was often quite similar to the true grognard wargamer, not exactly the most popular kid in school but smart, curious, and excited about their hobbies. Wargames and computers were a natural match. The graphics of course sucked, but a deep gameplay and a dedication to realism has typically been more important to the true grognard than anything else. They never made that much money since not that many people had a home computer in the 80s. When computers went mass market (to the great dismay of more than a few hobbyists who saw their joy being dumbed down for the masses as well) it was inevitable the gaming industry would too.

So I say let them have DOOM. It isn't that bad when you need mindless fun. And who caes if they don't like games like WITP? We just need to stick together to support our love. Trust me, we don't want the general public to get too turned on by all of this, or else it'll just get ruined for the rest of us. [:-]

Cheers,
Rob [8D]

[2Stepper]

You know its funny... Joel Billings made a point about a "crass appeal for money" in his post early in the thread that I think has a lot of merit. "Money" point not withstanding... LOL!

The reality guys? Is that we're probably the best sellers of wargames that you can find. I've seen a lot of really valid points about the classics. Be they board games or early computer games. I can remember COUNTLESS hours playing games like Rise and fall of the Third Reich by AH, and getting my tail handed to me by a friend while playing Flattop (aka EARLY board version of UV). That list goes on and on...

Point I'm getting at is that games like this and UV and eventually WaW are the staple for the best advertising campaign around. Simple word of mouth. I mean people can say what they want about other company's endeavors... Won't go into titles, but I'm sure some of you can think of a few... Point I'm getting at is those games sell. Just like WiTP does... The reason they sell well for the smaller end companies is word of mouth... People see something that peeks their interest and they go out and buy it... They fall in love with either the game or at least the potential if it starts out a bit buggy at first. They talk about it... Interest spreads among like minded people... Heck, it even grows in a few NOT-like minded ones.

And just like the flu in a room full of people, it spreads... am I saying we're all "sick" for loving our wargames? LOL!! Well... maybe a little. [;)][:D] But seriously... Matrix and other companies count on forums like this to keep strong a good sense of community and above all communication. I'll tell two friends, and they will too and so on... before long, Matrix has another 400 or 500 units sold... or an even bigger customer base for their NEXT game endeavor.

Keep talking em up guys... The genre of wargames may ebb and flow a bit, but I think it'll be around for a LONG time! [8D]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn


Actually Terrible Swift Sword has been done. Talonsoft's "Gettysburg" title in their Battleground series certainly looked and felt like a great port of the SPI monster game. In fact, the entire series was great... Shiloh, Antietam, Bull Run, and Chicamauga plus the four Napoleonic titles. And the really neat thing was the way designer John Tillett programmed a 32 bit patch and posted it on his website to update the games alolng with an editor package!

They are getting hard to find these days, but what a treasure.




Tiller is still at it. Working with HPS Simulations now. Check out his Panzer Campaings series. Beautiful simple to play yet realistic turn based games. Great art, great maps, excellent OOBs and constantly being patched. Really appeal to an old board gamers. And....there are no pieces to pick up afterwards[:D]

I have all the old Tiller Civil War and Napoleonic titles. Don't play them much but don't really want to get rid of them. If you are missing any send me an email and I will burn you a copy. They have been out of print so I don't think anybody will care.

[fbastos]

Tell me wrong, but the original Steel Panthers sold a lot of copies, didn't it? It's not like the general public doesn't like historical wargames; it's just that WiTP just isn't a game, and doesn't intend to be.

I may be speaking for myself, but I would prefer much more to have a more detailed land combat system than the eye candy of nice graphics.

The public, on the other side, can't stand spreadsheets with 10,000 leaders on a game, because, by definition, that is historical research rather than game.

What really amazes me is that we (wargamers) spend so much effort on bringing research as a cooperative effort, while other people (say medics) don't care for that (never heard of a medical simulation with 5,000 possible diseases and 5-years long scenarios)

F.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Kid

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

A Demo covering the attack on PH would last about 2 minutes and not even give them a taste of the game.

They want a demo, tell them to buy UV. If they like that, they will love WITP. There is the Demo.

If I had my way, I'd make UV a free demo.

Why dont they release your tutorial in WITP or a smaller scenario as a demo???

[Tankerace]

Because, *in theory*, you could download user scenarios, rename them to the name of the tutorial's name, and play them. I did this with the TOAW vol 1 demo.

For some reason, on the WFBP1 CD, the idiots at Talonsoft put the TOAW demo on it, and also put all the scenarios. All you had to do was rename any scenario you wanted to play to the Korea 50-51 scenario, and then you could play it. I could have easily gipped them out fo 30 bucks. But then I went and bought TOAW deluxe (or some repackaging), and then bought TOAW:ACW a year or 2 later.

As to wargame development, I would agree that they are (or at least seem to) be harder to develop than any other genre of game. It seems to me that West Front, East Front II, and Panzer General were the only wargames I have ever bought that didn't need fixing right out of the box, or that didn't need some glaring bug fixed a few months down the line. Consequently, I think Hidden and Dangerous was the only shooter game I have bought that was screwed out of the box. I don't play that many shooters though, mainly WW2 or military themed ones, so I can't say how some of the other ones fared.

[Tankerace]

Oh yeah, it seems I have everyone beat on age. 19 baby, booyah! I think playing Koei's Pacific Theater of Operations when I was 11 ruined me for life. [:D]

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: MadmanRick

I seems to me that the lack of interest in wargames is a fairly complex problem. It isn't as simple as stating that RTS games or Nintendo have taken away their interest, although this is surely a truism. I think it also has to do with the fact that for anyone under the age of 30, Vietnam is ancient history not to mention the Second World War. Also keep in mind that with history revisionism, not as much emphasis is truly placed upon the Second World War nowadays. I mean I remember growing up and after studying WW2, I searched out every book I could find (particularly on the Pacific Theatre). You rarely find that type of interest anymore. The wargaming hobby is far from alone in this type of problem, scale modelling is also going through the exact same thing. That hobby also tends to blame its' woes on video games et al, but again I think the problem is much more complex.
For most of us, we read about the wars in school, then we came across the books and then later the great board games drew us in and we were hooked for life. Nowadays, you aren't as likely to spend a month or more learning about WW2, the books are there, but how many libraries can afford to have the selection that they had when we were young? I won't even start with the lack of great board games. I mean I love computer games, but nothing can replace having those maps/counters in front of you. I used to just look at all the different counters from my games (when I couldn't find an opponent) and dream of them (ok, so I'm a freak). But, mere sprites on a screen can't quite attract the way those cardboard and paper items could. I'll never forget the first time I saw SPI's War In The Pacific actually set up, I finally TRULY realized how huge the Pacific theatre really was! Before that I knew, but I didn't know. So anyway, that is my take on some of the problem and I am sure that I didn't touch on the complete issue.

Rick

P.S. To illustrate what I mean about counters etc, I own the complete set of Assault games by GDW, although I've never actually played that game (too complex, no opponent etc). I can tell you however, that the counters a fairly worn from me spending SO much time going through them and handling them!

Another thing to add to the cultural issues causing problems for the genre, it has been over 15 years since the US (and the "west" in general) has had a capable enemy in a traditional sense, that enlisted fear of military defeat for the culture. Warsaw Pact games were numerous in the 1980's. when the Soviet Union fell along with it went an entire set of fascinating realistic wargaming scenarios and we were left to fall back on WWII. There are only so many WWII based games you can have before all the possibilities have been exhausted. And when is the last time a major title was released that employed modern weaponry? The few Persian Gulf titles that came out were lame because they had to grossly exagerate Iraq's capabilities and tactics to make the games remotely playable. Alas, for all the good the fall of the Soviet Union caused, it was a major blow to the turn based wargaming industry...

[forranger]

ORIGINAL: Desertmole

Let me tell you about revisionist history. My eldest daughter (now 22) was taking a World History class as a HS Junior, and it got to the WWII part. The teacher started in about how the US started WWII so that they could drop nukes on Japan. She protested and asked why he hadn't mentioned Pearl Harbor (most students responded with "What's a Pearl Harbor?" [:(]). She and the teacher got into an arguement over it and she was thrown out of class, with threat of a three-day suspension. Can you guess the discussions that went on in the Principal's office when I got there? Needless to say, that teacher no longer teached World History.

A little hint to all you guys beyond the pond: There's a CRUCIAL vote coming up. Think back: When did the downslide on education in the US start? Who benefits from keeping the voting masses dumb? Which one of the two big political parties in the US has made cuts on educational budgets time and again? Who's trying to cut down on human and civil rights and succeeding to do so? Go out and get all eligible folks around you to vote and put an end to this........

[MadmanRick]

Another thing to add to the cultural issues causing problems for the genre, it has been over 15 years since the US (and the "west" in general) has had a capable enemy in a traditional sense, that enlisted fear of military defeat for the culture. Warsaw Pact games were numerous in the 1980's. when the Soviet Union fell along with it went an entire set of fascinating realistic wargaming scenarios and we were left to fall back on WWII. There are only so many WWII based games you can have before all the possibilities have been exhausted. And when is the last time a major title was released that employed modern weaponry? The few Persian Gulf titles that came out were lame because they had to grossly exagerate Iraq's capabilities and tactics to make the games remotely playable. Alas, for all the good the fall of the Soviet Union caused, it was a major blow to the turn based wargaming industry...

I agree with this, especially those of us who grew up in the '50's and '60's. When the spectre of the "Red Menace" was at its' nadir and we were watching duck and cover films in school and putting shelters in our backyards. Nothing like a little fear to truly stimulate interest in a subject. I know that despite ALL the anti-war hysteria and madness surrounding the Vietnam War, that I had decided by the age of 10 that I wanted to join the military just AS soon as I was old enough. Sure enough I joined exactly 1 month after graduating HS and spent 8 years in the USAF. Again I believe traceable back to the interest stimulated by watching movies (Tora, Tora, Tora was a BIG one for me), reading books and then playing the games. Long before I was old enough to even know of the wargame genre, one of our favorite pasttimes in the summer (besides baseball), was to play army. We began with plastic armymen and tanks and eventually we worked our way up to using the neighborhood as our battlefield. Of course, later the board games took over. But that was a few years in the future. Things have surely changed, as now the military is seen as a "job opportunity" (of last resort), rather than an "honorable" thing. But, I guess this progression is natural in some ways.

Rick

[Zeta16]

So you are saying the liberials are the ones to blame. They have made education one were there can't be winners and have one has to feel great. In the classrooms I have been in they want you to water everything down for the worst students and teach this way to the whole class. Schools have enough money and waste it on the crazist things. They spend money on all of these sensitivity training and PC crap. The waste a lot of money and want more and more every year, and the teaching keeps getting away from history to PC agenda issues. The books now cover the whole world war two for two chapters and WWI for 1, then spend 1 chapter one the whole cold war. Then after the chapter on the cold war there is a couple of chapters talking about the counter culture and PC issues. The issue on American eduction is not money being spent on it is how you use it. It has seemed to go away from teaching to a place for Liberal and PC ideas are being introduced to the students. I was in high school in mid 90's and am in the schools and it is so much easier for these kids to get good grades. Kids these days should never fail a class unless they do nothing, but half of the time they pass these kids any ways because the parents complain.