Campaign Collective

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:03 am

Just wants to make the 100th post <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Seriously, A_B supposed to mail out the campaign for testing last month, but haven't heard anything.

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:13 am

well that would make me the 101st!!! Airborne! Urr-AAAAAHH!!

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:41 am

I guess I owe an apology to everyone waiting out there. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Apparently, I suffer from attention deficient disorder combined with obsessive-compulsive syndrome. Either or, I’ve been manically trying to beat Shogun Total War at expert level for two weeks straight - taking time out only for the occasional work call or kids soccer game.

I'm burning out on it though, and if I’m flooded with emails today and tomorrow, I’ll sheath my samari sword long enough to compile the first ten battles.

Sayonara

AB

PS, Darroch has been really hanging in there, and he deserves some kudos for that.

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Sat Oct 27, 2001 1:59 am

How about if I point my T-34's main gun at you and see if you don't sheath that samurai sword, eh? Just kidding...

Seriously, I *wanna* contribute to this thing. Give me something to start on!!

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Sun Oct 28, 2001 5:53 am

A_B: what battles have been finished and what battles have been assigned?

I think you said you had battles 1-11 and I'm finishing testing on 14 and 15

Do you have someone for 12 and 13?

Is anyone doing 16 or higher yet?

Should we start a second "wave" of battles yet?

Cheers

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 8:25 pm

Hmmmm... why didn't I read this thread before? Perhaps because it was so big. This project looks veeeeerrrrry interesting. If there is still any work to be done, I will take some of it. 16 and 17 look good to me, if nobody has claimed them.

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 9:31 pm

yeah, war don't need one man, you can stay in recovery A_B <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

But we should really get somekinda sitrep of what is done. What is to be done is totally up to designers <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

I know battles from 1 -13 are quite ready, unless I did misunderstood. So, who has specific info on this ???

mosh

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Tue Oct 30, 2001 11:40 pm

While A_B is compiling the first battles (status?) I will try and regroup with the information I have. Please review the following and confirm or correct the battle status and assignments:

Great Patriotic War: Battle Assignments and Status:

Battle 1 - AB
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling.
Battle 2 - Mosh
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling.
Battle 3 - Tomo
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 4 - Darroch
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling.
Battle 5 - Mike (the General)
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 6 - Lu Pham
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 7 - Wild Bill
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 8 - AB
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 9 - Eric Aube (slayer)
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 10 - Stuart Mills
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 11 - Kordolius
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 12 - Mucius
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling?
Battle 13 - ???
Status: Unknown
Battle 14 - Darroch
Status: Done. Tested. Ready for compiling.
Battle 15 - Darroch
Status: Done. In Test. Ready November 5
Battle 15a - Darroch
Status: Done. In Test. Ready November 10

Battle 16 - unassigned (Penetrator?)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 17 - unassigned (Penetrator?)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 18 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 19 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 20 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 21 - unassigned (Mamayaev Kurgan 1)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 22 - unassigned (Mamayaev Kurgan 2)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 23 - unassigned (Mamayaev Kurgan 3)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 24 - unassigned (Mamayaev Kurgan 4)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 25 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 26 - unassigned (goes with 27)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 27 - unassigned (goes with 26)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 28 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 29 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 30 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 31 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 32 - unassigned
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 33 - unassigned (goes with 34)
Status: Incomplete.
Battle 34 - unassigned (goes with 33)
Status: Incomplete.

New designers confirm your battles with A_B and myself: brad.darroch@trw.com

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:07 am

I will post a list of the storyboarded battles that I have been able to assemble:

A_B did the first bunch and Gallo Rojo did the second bunch.

Our little story ends at Rostov on or about January 1943...

If we all agree that this list is THE LIST, then...

What comes next? Is it the Kuban front or back to the Center? Or do we run for the Dnieper? Leningrad anyone?

We still need battle designers and storyboard authors.

A question for all of us to consider: can the core force become too powerful or too big to be fun anymore?

Probably a matter of personal taste but we need to develop a consensus in order to make decisions:

1) Do we have one mega-campaign with a super core force storming Berlin in '45? or '44?!

2) Do we have agree on some sizing rules and build point limits to maintain a fun core force within reason?

3) Do we let each player decide how many build points and the designers will have to assume some basic core force for testing?

4) Do we produce 4 campaigns, about a year long, with a new core force every January?

What do you think? The decision mainly affects battle designers and how hard they need to make scenarios to provide enough challenge for the players.

Brad

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:31 am

OK, and here's the list - A_B says he has maps through the end of 1942...and permission to use Bryan Melvin's Stalingard maps.

You'll note that there are four Mamayaev Kurgan battles that probably ought to use the same map and have the same designer for consistency - anybody out there able to lock themselves up for a couple months?

Also, battles 26 & 27 as well as 33 & 34 are the same maps...

Battles 25-34 have not been organized into "operations" yet - we could treat it as one big operation (i.e. no rebuild breaks) or break it into two operations....preferences?

Also, adantas is working on two battles that would occur in between battles 4 and 5 of the original storyboard (Oct 2-3, 1941) - they are big muddy brawls and the first is in testing and the seocnd is in design as we speak...

I'm not sure how these will be inserted but with the campaign editor, all things are possible!

here's the latest list:

Operation 1

Battle 1: Dubno, June 25th, 1941 - Russian Counter attack

Battle 2: Sluzk, June 25th, 1941 - Russian Counter attack

Battle 3: East of Slonim, July 1st, 1941 - Breakout and Escape

End of Operation 1

Operation 2

Battle 4: Pripet Marshes, August 16th, 1941 - Russian delay with possible counter attack

Battle 5: Kolotchky Station, Oct 13th, 1941 - Russian raid of railhead

Battle 6: Near Tula, Nov. 16th, 1941 - Russian delay

Battle 7: Outskirts of Moscow, Dec. 5th, 1941 - Russian delay followed by a counter attack.

Operation 3

Battle 8: Kaluga, December 25th, 1941 - Russian advance with defense against flanking counter attack

Battle 9: Kaluga, December 28th, 1941 -. Russian defense against flanking counter attack.

Battle 10: West of Kaluga, January 5th, 1941 -. Russian advance against weak opposition.

Battle 11: Borodino, January 15th, 1941 -. Russian deliberate assault against fortified town.

Battle 12: East of Vyazma, February 25th, 1941 -. Russian Raid

Operation 4

Battle 13: East of Orel, April 1st, 1942 - Ambush of German Column

Battle 14: Orel, April 3rd, 1942 -. Russian assault

Battle 15: Orel, April 4th, 1942 -. Russian river crossing and assault. Must win to get to 16.

Battle 15a: Orel, April 5th, 1942 - Russian fighting withdrawal

Operation 5

Operation overview: Your core force moves south to support the Kharkov offensive. The German counterattack starts prior to your involvement, so you are spared encirclement. Your force is one of the few veteran units that can be use to delay the German drive on Stalingrad. Delay the Germans, but it will be critical to preserve the fighting strength of your core force, because rebuild points will be almost non-existent. All of the maps come from the Stalingrad campaign, but have been expanded to accommodate larger battles.

Battle 16: Near Millerovo, July 29th, 1942 - Delay battle along dry river bed.

The front is very wide, and the Germans can attack anywhere. A mobile defense will have to be used to be successful. Advance if draw or better, otherwise go to 18 (hard)

Battle 17: Morozovsk, July 29th, 1942 - Russian defense

Defense of village at creek crossing against German assault. Another wide front to hold with limited forces. Advance if draw or better, otherwise go to 18 (hard)

Battle 18: Don River, August 2nd, 1942 -. Escape Battle.

Break out at night through German lines, and attempt to cross the Don river at a ford. Relief forces will launch a diversion from the Russian main lines. Draw or better takes you to next operation, otherwise you skip next operation

Battle 18 (hard): Don River, August 2nd, 1942 -. Escape Battle.

Blitzkrieg through dwindling German opposition. Same battle as 18, but Germans have had more time to dig
in and prepare the defenses. Draw or better takes you to next operation, otherwise you skip next operation

Operation 6

Operation overview: Your core force, or what is left of it, has only a short time to refit, prior to being called on to continue to defend the approaches to Stalingrad. All of the maps come from the Stalingrad campaign, but have been
expanded to accommodate larger battles.

Battle 19: Gumrak Station, August 22nd, 1942 - Delay battle

Attempt to hold Gumrak station. Advance if draw or better.

Battle 20: On the steppe in front of Stalingrad, September 2nd, 1942 - Russian raid on German Artillery.

Night raid against German artillery position near Stalingrad. Advance if draw or better.

Battle 21: Kurgan Hill #1, September 14th, 1942 - Defend battle

First of four battles for Kurgan hill. These are the only Stalingrad City battles. Your job is to hold out as long as possible. The four battles will get progressively harder. Unlike most battles in the campaign, the player will have a lot of support points, so they can construct the defense that they choose. Advance if draw or better. Otherwise, go to battle 24 (hard).

Battle 22: Kurgan Hill #2, September 14th, 1942 - Defend battle

Second of four battles for Kurgan hill. These are the only Stalingrad City battles. Your job is to hold out as long as possible. The four battles will get progressively harder. Advance if draw or better. Otherwise, go to battle 24 (hard)

Battle 23: Kurgan Hill #3, September 14th, 1942 - Defend battle

Third of four battles for Kurgan hill. These are the only Stalingrad City battles. Your job is to hold out as long as possible. The four battles will get progressively harder. Advance if draw or better. Otherwise, go to battle 24 (hard)

Battle 24: Kurgan Hill #4, September 14th, 1942 - Defend battle

Final of four battles for Kurgan hill. These are the only Stalingrad City battles. Your job is to hold out as long as possible. The four battles will get progressively harder. Advance to next operation if draw or better, otherwise skip next operation.

Battle 24 (hard): Kurgan Hill #4, September 14th, 1942 - Defend battle

Final of four battles for Kurgan hill. These are the only Stalingrad City battles. Your job is to hold out as long as possible. The four battles will get progressively harder. Advance to next operation if draw or better, otherwise skip next operation.

Operation 7

Operation overview: Your core force has had two months to refit and train your new recruits. Now is the time to go on the offensive.

Note: this campaign is based on the operations of the General Romanenko's 5th Tank Army, under General Vatutin's South Western Front (the northern pincer of Operations Uranus and Saturn). This storyboard was created by Gallo Rojo and entitled: The Bear's Hug (Campaign on 1942 Soviet's counter offensive at Stalingrad -Uranus & Saturn Operations)

Battle 25: Near Don River, November 19th 1942, 0800 hours. Russian Assault

Background: Uranus Operation has begun. This is the attempt to encircle the German VI army and relieve Stalingrad. Gen. Zhukov's plan is to attack the flanks of von Paulus' VI Army with two pincers: Southwest Front (Gen. Vatutin) and Stalingrad Front (Gen. Andrei Yeremenko). The two pincers should link up at the town of Kalach, with the only intact bridge over Don River and Sixth Army's main communications to the rear.
As a part of 5th Tanks army (attached to Gen. Vatutin's Southwest Front) the player should hammer the weakest link of German's northern flank: the sector defended by Rumanian forces.

Weather: Snowstorm
Axis Forces: elements of 3rd Rumanian Army (Infantry, ATG and some Czech built tanks) supported by elements of German 22nd Pz Div (around 20 tanks were involved). Note: I have this scenario already done and tested but for an smaller OOB.

Battle 25 Results:
If minor victory go to Battle 26
If major victory go to Battle 27

Battle 26: Kalach, November 22nd 1942, noon. Russian Advance.

Background: The town of Kalach was the main objective of Operation Uranus. This is the only operational bridge that links the VI Army with the rest of the German forces. If the Soviets take this bridge the supply line for the German forces at Stalingrad will be cut of. Note: in the real battle, the 5th Tank Army was the unit which took the bridge.

Note: on the real battle Soviet used some captured German's tanks to infiltrate German positions, therefore the use of some German Captured PzIII from the Soviet OOB that appear as reinforcement behind German lines will be recommendable to give some historical flavor. I have read an old post at the Forum that someone of the Matrix team has an Icon of a pontoon bridge. It should be nice to have it and use it.

Battle 27

Same than battle 26 but easier: less German forces, smaller caliber ATG, etc

Results:

If decisive victory go to Battle 29
If Minor Victory go to Battle 28

Battle 28: Kalach, November 23rd 1942. Russian Advance

Background: it is assumed that Soviets took the Bridge but didn't take Kalach. Player should try to take the city again and link up with the other soviet pincer.

Soviet auxiliary units: Troops from Stalingrad Front (the southern pincer) have reached Kalach by the southeast and join the battle.

Note: historically, November 23rd was the day when Southwest and Stalingrad Fronts linked up, encircling Paulus VI Army

Battle 29: West of Chir River. December 4th 1942, Noon. Meeting engagement

Background: Operation Saturn has begun. This plan calls for the liquidation of German Troops in Stalingrad and the bend of the Don, and finally the cutting off the German forces in Caucasus.

Axis Forces: Elements of 48th Pz Div + Infantry (See Mellenthin's Panzer Battles for detailed information and tactical maps) and plenty of artillery. Note: Germans won the real battle, so this should be a real task for the Russian player. Germans had much more artillery than Soviets in the real battle.

Result: minor defeat or better to advance to Battle 30

Battle 30: River Myshkova December 18th. Meeting engagement/Advance

Background: Counter attack against Winter Storm Operation. German forces of Hoth's Panzer Corps under Field Marshal Von Manstein have launched "Winter Storm Operation". This is an attempt to relieve the VI army at Stalingrad. Germans have launched their attack from Kotelnikovo and progressed quickly. However, Soviet 5th Shock Army have stopped them at Myshkova River. Soviet Forces at Myshkova are under great pressure. Our player should attack Army Group Hoth, stop its advance and relieve the 5th Shock Army.

Note: this is a key battle: a loss here will cause the failure of the entire Uranus and Saturn Operation.
Results: Draw or defeat: Hoth's Army Group has broken the ring around Stalingrad and relieved the VI Army. The Player is sent to Siberia (campaign ends!)

Minor Victory: Go to battle 31
Major Victory (very difficult to achieve): Go to Battle 32

Battle 31: Tatshinkaya Airfield. December 24th. Raid

Background: this is the last available airfield for the Luftwaffe's supply flights to the trapped VI Army. Its capture will end virtually all air supply for the Germans trapped at the city. Note: historically 175 Ju-52s were at the airfield and the Soviet tanks caused the destruction of over 50 planes.

Axis Forces involved: Luftwaffe field troops

Result: Minor Victory or better go to battle 34

Text should say that the fall of Tatshinkaya Airfield has been a decisive factor in the defeat of the German VI Army at Stalingrad. Although that the major portion of German Forces in the Caucasus have withdrawn, the Russian player should proceed to Rostov to take part in the liberation of that city.
Note: this should be a very easy battle for Russian player.

Battle 32: Donets River, December 28th. Assault River Crossing

Background: The smashing victory against Hoth's Panzer Corps have given the Soviets the chance of making a major breakthrough the German lines. The Russians threaten all German Forces on Caucasus. The player should cross the Donets River and advance deeply behind German lines. A success in this scenario should enable the liberation of Rostov and the possibility of cutting off the withdrawal of German Army Group A from the Caucasus.
Note: this should be a hard battle for the Russians.

Results: Decisive victory go to battle 33. Minor Victory go to battle 34. Draw or defeat ends the operation.

Battle 33: Rostov. December 31, 1942. Russian Hasty Assault

Background: Decisive Victory on the previous battle allows the Red Army to attack Rostov before the German Armies in the Caucasus have withdrawn. A success in this battle results in the encirclement of more German forces. Therefore Germans will face the loss of not only the VI Army in Stalingrad but also the loss (or diversion through the Crimea) of two other Armies. A major catastrophe for German Army.

Results:
If Decisive Victory: Soviet player is awarded the Order of Lenin Order and nominated as Hero of the Soviet Union.
Any other result (besides decisive defeat): Rostov has been liberated but the Germans have managed to withdraw. Our player receives a big clap and a second line medal but nothing more.

Battle 34: This is the same battle as 33 except that the delay suffered on battle32 allowed the Germans in the southern Caucasus to evacuate north via Rostov before the Russians reached the city. So the battle is to liberate the city, but the chance of a great strategic victory has been lost

Gallo Rojo: My storyboard for Operation Saturn ends here. Following Battles will include the final push of German Army from the Caucasus and the its pursuit towards the North until Manstein's counter attack on Kharkov.
If you need some extra info or have a question please e-mail me. If you like this storyboard feel free to e-mail it among the team or post it at the your Campaign Collective post at the Forum -just say that was me the one who did the work

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:41 am

Whew!

Let me know what you think of all of the above.

Hope to hear from everyone.

If you don't mind, I would love to get the individual battles. If you don't want them re-used, I'll certainly respect that. The Stalingrad maps would be awesome too, A_B...

So, how's the first installment coming?

<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:41 am

Whew!

Let me know what you think of all of the above.

Hope to hear from everyone.

brad.darroch@trw.com

If you don't mind, I would love to get the individual battles. If you don't want them re-used, I'll certainly respect that. The Stalingrad maps would be awesome too, A_B...

So, how's the first installment coming?

<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 1:11 am

Great job darroch. I thinks the Soviet who fought through these will definitely be supermen. We may have to readjust the strength of the opposition to keeps it from becoming a cake walk.

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Wed Oct 31, 2001 2:38 am

My two cents about the core force:
I think it needs to be kept small, and substantial auxiliary forces in most battles. Assume that the core will become an all tank force of heavy hitters. Limiting rebuild points is worse than the disease I think. Get messed up in one battle and you never get back on track... and who didn't get messed up in 1941? Otherwise such a large campaign quickly becomes very unpredictable, unless there is a new core every year... a rather dull prospect.

darroch · Post by **darroch** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 12:37 am

new designers:

Battle 16: Penetrator

Battle 18 (two versions): Jorgen Vausshaug

Battle 17 anyone?

I tend to agree with Penetrator's concerns - one approach to solving this is to reduce the number of original build points and then add AUX units to each battle to offset the loss of strength.

The battles are balanced for battalion-sized core so if the core shrinks, AUX units must be added to preserve the balance without a complete redesign.

What do the rest of you think?

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 12:50 am

Mymy, someone agrees with me, that is not every day <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
But seriously, I think it would be best to just bite the bullet and nail the core down to a tank company (!). There is no point in having support units in the core, they just get upgraded to monster tanks at the first opportunity.

color · Post by **color** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 1:48 am

I think a good solution to the core force problem would be to decide upon a 'default core force' upon which we base all our designed scenarios, and include just the necessary points to purchase such a force. Later battles would have to take into account that this core force would be more experienced and have newer equipment. This way a large core force can still be created without de-balancing the battles too much.

Upon starting the campaign we warn the player that choosing a core force different from the one suggested will de-balance the designed campaign and detract from the fun and challenge. A kind of simulated MegaCampaign restriction to the core force.
People can choose, and suffer the consequences from their decision. If they want to create a super ahistorical composition latest-technology force to chrush all the opposition we designed for them and get bored to death by winning all the time, they can do that. It would be like playing a computer generated one, equally fun.

Or they can have more fun being real men and try to win with the forces the campaign was designed to be a challenge for.

Color

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 5:17 am

Agreed. If I am going to do a scenario, I really need to know just about the size of force that could be facing my 'attackers/defenders' or whatever. So that would mean knowing, generally, the core force points at START and also what the rebuild point levels might be. From there I can deduce a number of different type of possible enemy force compositions.

So I would say

1. Get a consensus on core force size.

2. Another one on rebuild points.

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 5:21 am

One way to limit the player from creating a superman task force that rolls over everything with ease:

Keep the core force limited. Emphasize support points and/or give them AUX troops already in a scenario. This is what I am doing in my campaigns. This makes sure that the majority of their troops in any given battle are considered status quo for experience/morale purposes. This is also more realistic and challenging. That will create more equal fighting and also make them really appreciate each and every superior unit them have.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 8:43 pm

I tend to agree with Penetrator's concerns - one approach to solving this is to reduce the number of original build points and then add AUX units to each battle to offset the loss of strength.

The battles are balanced for battalion-sized core so if the core shrinks, AUX units must be added to preserve the balance without a complete redesign.
QB]

This is going over old material that was decided on by consensus earlier. The core force decided on was too big, but mostly because once aux. forces were added, the game didn't have enough slots to allow crews to bail (that is a lot of forces). The reason for the big core were;

too many aux. means you just hide behind them to save your core. This makes for some really unrealistic 'gamey' tactics which we were trying to avoid.

This campaign is supposed to be a big, bloody brawl. The core force is intended to take a lot of losses if you expect to advance. In that sense it is quite different than most SP campaigns i've played, where my goal has been to preserve my core at all costs.

Many battles were meant to be started with your core force having many (up to 70%) of your forces disabled/destroyed.

All of this should help prevent the core from becoming supermen. A few units may become super, but many will be replacements.

SO, this campaign was going to be quite different - and definitely geared towards a 'russian' experience. A 'german' experience would have been more along the normal SP campaign lines; absolutely limit damages to the core as the only way to win.

Some problems with the campaign so far;
Too many battles are being added - it is just getting to damn big.
Whomever is the director (me at the start), needs to manage the scenario builders more (which i didn't do). One of the things we'll see is that most battles are desperately hard. This was not my intent when thinking of the 'story' flow. Some battles were meant to be relatively easy. Some would be easy until a massive counter attack on turn 18 or something. The battles that were really, really hard weren't meant to be balanced so you could win fairly easily with a good plan. They were meant to hurt, with the player occasionally having to conduct an unplanned withdrawal to avoid annihilation.

So if this sounds like a campaign for you, sign up. But lets not restart. I’ll reduce the core slightly on the first battle. I’ll also forward what supporting documents I have to people just joining in. Email me at christensen18@home.com I’ll be closing my earthlink account soon.

AB