PLEASE FIX AIR COMBAT!

[invernomuto]

Why Matrix does not produce a "WITP expansion pack" with tweaked land and air combat models and maybe some other improvements like a better interface and graphics? I think that the majority of us here on the forum would buy it.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Personally, the problem I have with tightening up deployment by HQ and Political Points is that the assignments and reinforcements (at least for the Allies) only make sense if the game proceeds nearly identical to real life.

Both sides tend to have abundance of PPs by spring 42, at least I do in my games from both sides. Allied player usually mis-use this abundance to totally denude West Coast sending everything up front, while Japanese players usually do the same with 4 homeland divisions, or dream of doing the similar thing with Manchurian army divisions.

Not to mention that most Allied players simply stop paying any attention to Brit withdrawal rule by April 42, since the abundance of PPs allows them to keep everything London wants back.

All this is gamey and another example of "candyland" rules we all live by, and some of us love [;)] If one plays by candyland rules (PDU & co.), one should be aware that box with candies may be in opponents hands on any given day.

O.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Personally, the problem I have with tightening up deployment by HQ and Political Points is that the assignments and reinforcements (at least for the Allies) only make sense if the game proceeds nearly identical to real life.

Both sides tend to have abundance of PPs by spring 42, at least I do in my games from both sides. Allied player usually mis-use this abundance to totally denude West Coast sending everything up front, while Japanese players usually do the same with 4 homeland divisions, or dream of doing the similar thing with Manchurian army divisions.

Not to mention that most Allied players simply stop paying any attention to Brit withdrawal rule by April 42, since the abundance of PPs allows them to keep everything London wants back.

All this is gamey and another example of "candyland" rules we all live by, and some of us love [;)] If one plays by candyland rules (PDU & co.), one should be aware that box with candies may be in opponents hands on any given day.

O.

I don't believe in playing "CandyWiTP" either. I withdraw RN ships even if I can afford to pay the PP penalty. I don't strip the west coast early in the game. And I think PDU was the worst feature addition the developers have done. (So far. I can't speak for the future yet. [;)] )

But to get vaguely back on subject, it sounds like you believe that without an overhaul of the PP system it is not a candidate for "fixing" air combat. Yes?

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

But to get vaguely back on subject, it sounds like you believe that without an overhaul of the PP system it is not a candidate for "fixing" air combat. Yes?

I believe if you play with ahistorical stuff you get ahistoric results. Then again, it's thin ice - it has always been and always will be for as long as wargaming lives - because part of the fun, and why we all play this stuff is getting ahistoric results [;)]

But yes, I believe those that obsesively wish to "fix" the game and make it more historical should start from PP system, and possibly production system (not only Japanese prod. system), before many other things (before A2A, before surface combat, and even before supply).

O.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Jim you need to bring more planes to the party, you will never win with inferior equipment at 1 to 2 odds. You may not win with superior equipment but at least it will be closer. It sucks, but its the way the game is built.

LOL after the loss of 250 other fighters, there were no other planes left to defend this rear area base. Imphal is the front line now and I couldn't afford more than 50 fighters for Dacca. Prior to this Dacca had another 50 hurricanes but they were needed at the front after massive losses decimated all my other fighters in theatre. Everyone keeps assuming I had a choice in the matter, this battle occurred at the end of a very bloody week of fighting, 300 of my fighters to 10 of his lost.

Basically any base in range of his Tony groups (no matter how many planes I could base there) are untenable. The air model will decimate my groups inside of 1 or 2 days and low replacement rates take months to rebuild the groups. I've tried bombing him with my heavies, but without escorts, he shreds them. My last big bombing raid saw half the heavies shot down and the mission aborted, and my heavies have experiience in the high 70's low 80's.

The closest battle we fought saw 125 of my best fighters (experience 70+ groups of Spit’s, Hurricanes and P-40E’s) against 140 of his Tony's. I lost about 80+ fighters and he lost about 5 planes.

Jim

[tsimmonds]

This is why I am going to play with pretty tight stacking limits , and CAP limits from now on!!!

Have you decided on something specific? Please tell us about it....

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Jim you need to bring more planes to the party, you will never win with inferior equipment at 1 to 2 odds. You may not win with superior equipment but at least it will be closer. It sucks, but its the way the game is built.

LOL after the loss of 250 other fighters, there were no other planes left to defend this rear area base. Imphal is the front line now and I couldn't afford more than 50 fighters for Dacca. Prior to this Dacca had another 50 hurricanes but they were needed at the front after massive losses decimated all my other fighters in theatre. Everyone keeps assuming I had a choice in the matter, this battle occurred at the end of a very bloody week of fighting, 300 of my fighters to 10 of his lost.

Basically any base in range of his Tony groups (no matter how many planes I could base there) are untenable. The air model will decimate my groups inside of 1 or 2 days and low replacement rates take months to rebuild the groups. I've tried bombing him with my heavies, but without escorts, he shreds them. My last big bombing raid saw half the heavies shot down and the mission aborted, and my heavies have experiience in the high 70's low 80's.

The closest battle we fought saw 125 of my best fighters (experience 70+ groups of Spit’s, Hurricanes and P-40E’s) against 140 of his Tony's. I lost about 80+ fighters and he lost about 5 planes.

Jim

Fundamentally, if you try to defend everywhere and make yourself weak everywhere, you will lose everywhere.

Why are you sending inferior forces against 100's of toprate fighters? You are only giving them more practice and greater experience. Let them fly against empty targets - they'll lose planes to operations losses.

Sit back, put up your feet, relax and let your opponent fly whereever he wants. You don't have to stop him everywhere. Ignore his planes and bomb his troops. Just don't give him freebies!

Tonys are not invulnerable. If you get superior numbers you can wipe them from the sky too. I just surprised a squadron of Tonys with most of the 23rd FG flying P-40Bs. There were 7 Tonys on CAP and the 60 P-40Bs went through them like s*h*i*t through a goose and shot them down one after another without a single P-40B getting a scratch. To add insult to injury, my bombers then destroyed another 9 Tonys on the ground and creamed the air field. So that entire squadron will now receive lousy pilot replacements.

My opponent is flying hundreds of other fighters as escorts at two bases that he is attacking. Who cares. I am not going to waste my good air units in a potential slaughter house. Instead I will continue to hunt his weak spots. He will either have to spread out his planes to more managable size pieces that I can fight on terms where I'll win, or allow me to control the air in all the bases where he doesn't send his Super Daitais.

Change your approach and you may well find that you can start to get things your way.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Change your approach and you may well find that you can start to get things your way.

Thanks ADavidB I'd already pretty much decided to do just that. It's just pathetic that in september of 1942 I have to surrender air superiority to Japan becasue the games air model won't allow me to be competative unless I fly against undefended bases.

As I said before, there is no possibility of a Cactus Air Force scenario in WitP, you either control the air or you don't, period. Pretty lame.

Jim

[ADavidB]

As I said before, there is no possibility of a Cactus Air Force scenario in WitP, you either control the air or you don't, period.

The situation in the Solomons in the early Fall of 1942 was one of limited resources for both sides. Both sides were at the limits of their supply chains and neither side was committing serious amounts of forces. The Japanese fighters were at their very limit of action over Lunga and the major problem for the US Marine fighters was naval bombardments. It took the US months to gain air control as both sides committed more and more forces.

What the US didn't do was to try to attack major Japanese air bases in 1942. When they started to in 1943 the results were close to a draw, but the US was able to slowly attrite the Japanese air power. But both sides were also nearly out of active carriers during the first half of 1943.

The big difference in the Game is that there is almost no way other than total stupidity for a Japanese player to lose his 4 best carriers in May 1942 and then have the rest of his carrier air groups attrited away during the remainder of the year. The presence of the KB Death Star in the Game prevents the Allied player from raiding with his carriers and also always leaves the threat of the KB coming in to change the air balance over any base with 300+ planes.

If you were to play the Fall 1942 scenario with limited carriers and historic aircraft numbers available (at least at the beginning) you would see a different situation that would be a lot more like what happened historically. (That would last until one side or the other made better use of supply, replacements and reinforcements and built a new Super Air Force.)

So it is simply the nature of the 1941 Campaign Scenario, along with the ability of the Japanese player to use his forces more effectively than history in order to build up a more powerful strike force, that puts such contraints on the Allied player. As the Allies, you simply have to not only live within those contraints, but be very careful not to "feed" the growth of a Japanese Super Air Force while you carefully and deliberately feed the growth of you own future Super Air Force.

Once again, good luck -

Dave Baranyi

[BLUESBOB]

Going back to the very first post.

This goes back to my main argument about the game. Since all combat is predicated on experience, I'm sure experience was THE deciding factor in this battle. (Not to mention 2:1 odds) I have no idea how the scenario was set-up, but I'm sure the Japs had 20-30 more points of experience than the Mohawks. Which brings me back to my most vocal argument...where did every Jap ship, plane, and land unit GET all this experience. The majority of Jap forces at the beginning of the war were just as green as the forces they were fighting.

[ADavidB]

This goes back to my main argument about the game. Since all combat is predicated on experience, I'm sure experience was THE deciding factor in this battle. (Not to mention 2:1 odds) I have no idea how the scenario was set-up, but I'm sure the Japs had 20-30 more points of experience than the Mohawks. Which brings me back to my most vocal argument...where did every Jap ship, plane, and land unit GET all this experience. The majority of Jap forces at the beginning of the war were just as green as the forces they were fighting.

It's the simplest of all things for the Japanese pilots to gain experience if the Allied player throws bad planes with bad pilots against him from Day 1. Everytime you see a one-sided air combat result you know that the winning side has just boosted its experience. Allowing one side to feast on your rookies only assures that the feast will be even better the next time.

If you play the Japanese side at all, you will quickly see that they are not all "Gods", but that it also doesn't take a lot to get them to that stage if they get free reign to wipe out weak, poorly training, poorly lead opponents. And a lot of the Allied pilots start out at lower experience levels than the equivalent Japanese pilots. But that can also be fixed if the Allied player has patience.

So what is the solution? Fight only when you are stronger and have an advantage of one sort or another. Never fight at a disadvantage - you only make your opponent stronger.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

[Sardonic]

I must chime in here and say this is not what I see in large air battles.

Then again, I play the AI.

Usually the AI will start attacking one point. It doesnt matter what the point is.
If it is resisted, it sends more.

Akyab is an excellent example.

Defending Akyab is the AVG with say 5X16 plane Hurricane
and at most (so far) 16 MoHawk.


The AI will send whatever it has handy, often this is quite a bit.

I tend to suffer 'less' losses than the AI.

Less being operative. It seems that the Betty fall apart if intercepted.
The Zero grind away in a kind of exchange.
The Nates and Oscars get blown out if the sky.

But the CW does take losses. A great many losses. Never enough to empty the RPool however.

[Gen.Hoepner]

Well, this for example, is the typical waves of bombers i have to face against MC in early 43.
My fighters were on a level 6 AF, with 2 Air HQ, plenty of supplies ( 340 engeneers!)and experience between 78 and 85!
Altitude was set between 12k and 23k ft.
Results were terrible anyhow: Base closed, tons of planes destroyed on the ground and the skies of Indochina completely conquered by the allied 4Es.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hanoi , at 36,37

Japanese aircraft
J2M Jack x 23
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 35
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 27
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 128

Allied aircraft
Catalina I x 6
Wellington III x 93
P-38G Lightning x 48
B-17E Fortress x 96

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M Jack: 3 destroyed, 15 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 9 destroyed, 18 damaged
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 6 destroyed, 15 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 39 destroyed, 51 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Catalina I: 2 destroyed
Wellington III: 58 destroyed
P-38G Lightning: 48 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 28 destroyed, 40 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
137 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 29

Second wave ( same day!)

Day Air attack on Hanoi , at 36,37

Japanese aircraft
J2M Jack x 10
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 16
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 11
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 48

Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 81
P-38G Lightning x 72
LB-30 Liberator x 48
B-24D Liberator x 186
IL-4c x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M Jack: 9 destroyed
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 20 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 9 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 80 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator VI: 6 destroyed, 17 damaged
P-38G Lightning: 19 destroyed, 16 damaged
LB-30 Liberator: 4 destroyed, 7 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 9 destroyed, 30 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
809 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

Airbase hits 54
Airbase supply hits 17
Runway hits 345


After this bloody battle, MC was able to keep sending 100+ 4Es every day over Hanoi to finish destroying the wrecks of my planes left on th ground.

Probably i'm not good enough, but i've suffered similar results since mid 1942 against the MC's hordes and i never was able to hold a base or an area when he decided to strike it.

[dtravel]

ADavidB, all your advice is fine but it is all based on one assumption. That the Allied player has any choice in the matter. As you concede, the Allies start out at lower experience levels than the Japanese so they have the advantage there. The Japanese aircraft have longer ranges, so if the Allies fall back far enough to avoid being wiped out then they abandon the battlefield to the Japanese. The Japanese can then bomb Allied land and naval forces without opposition and will gain even more experience, multiplying their advantage there. The Japanese start out with more aircraft, so they can outnumber the Allies on all fronts. Even if the Allies do manage a local numerical superiority somewhere, the interior lines of communication allow the Japanese to shift reinforcements in faster than the Allies and counter the numbers. (Assuming that they even need to since they are likely to be taking fewer casualties than the Allies because of their range and experience advantages.)

Now, in normal play the answer is for the Allies to stand and fight, knowing they are going to lose in the short term, hoping to slowly attrition the Japanese air forces in the process. But that can't work if they can't shoot down any Japanese aircraft, which is exactly the situation the original poster is in.

And quite frankly, he's in that situation solely because of the PDU.

[Przemcio231]

but when I was called to talk
I think about september 39 in Poland where old fighters managed to score kills on few occasions in much better-equipped germen units

Hmmmm as for Polish P.11 they were far more manuvrable then Me-109 and Polish pilot flying them were top class...

As for WiTP A2A combat... in my two games with Hopelsternum and Adm. Spruance we agread on not making uber Raid's and limited 4E's numbers in Bases... and as for now it works well... i do not think that in both games any strike ( 1st KB attack dose not count ) exeded 100 attacking Aircraft same with CAP the averange raids are like 50 - 60 planes so the air battles are nice... Of course im playing as japan so my loses are lighter then the Allies but that happens early in the War[:)] i think when players are not using some gamey tactics like sending over a hundred planes on attack and the same number on defence the A2A system work well

[Sneer]

Polish P 11 pilots were trained good but I would not say top class - remember some german pilots were in Legion Condor and had real war experiance
And yes I'm proud of our pilots too

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ADavidB, all your advice is fine but it is all based on one assumption. That the Allied player has any choice in the matter. As you concede, the Allies start out at lower experience levels than the Japanese so they have the advantage there. The Japanese aircraft have longer ranges, so if the Allies fall back far enough to avoid being wiped out then they abandon the battlefield to the Japanese. The Japanese can then bomb Allied land and naval forces without opposition and will gain even more experience, multiplying their advantage there. The Japanese start out with more aircraft, so they can outnumber the Allies on all fronts. Even if the Allies do manage a local numerical superiority somewhere, the interior lines of communication allow the Japanese to shift reinforcements in faster than the Allies and counter the numbers. (Assuming that they even need to since they are likely to be taking fewer casualties than the Allies because of their range and experience advantages.)

Now, in normal play the answer is for the Allies to stand and fight, knowing they are going to lose in the short term, hoping to slowly attrition the Japanese air forces in the process. But that can't work if they can't shoot down any Japanese aircraft, which is exactly the situation the original poster is in.

And quite frankly, he's in that situation solely because of the PDU.

I must be the only regular Allied player and occasional Japanese player who likes PDU. I use it happily to balance out my forces, give myself sufficient replacements, and move obsolete planes to backwater units. I'd like more flexibility with PDU. For example, those Dutch units that we all save from the DEI should be allowed to be given "excess" planes such as P-39s. That's the sort of thing that all "refugee" air units did during the War.

As far as "choice" goes, the Allied player always has lots of choice. Let's face it, during the first few weeks of the Game the two players aren't that mismatched in forces because it takes some time for the Japanese player to bring the KB back from the HI, replenish it and move it to its next objective. Sure, eventually the Japanese start to get lots more Zeros and Naval bombers, but there is plenty of time for the Allies to move back, regroup and start to rebuild.

Of course, that's assuming that this is a "Historical Beginning" game. I can never understand why any Allied player would agree to taking the absolutely idiotic limitations on non-historic start that so many Japanese players want. Some of the Japanese player requests are so extreme that they really ought to just play head-to-head and turn off all the Allied forces...[;)]

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

[el cid again]

So remember all, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander"...BOTH SIDES can attack with hundreds of planes at any one spot and overwhelm an unwary or unprepared opponent. Both sides have 1000s of planes that they can almost instantly mass at a given locations. That's just the way that the game is designed...

This is a comment about the early war period. LATER in the war it is not the case. Players who have survived out of the early war period - and tests I have run in 1945 - indicate that Japanese air is not effective AT ALL. Regardless of numbers. I put US ships in Japanese hexes - to get some experimental planes to fly - but I didn't get rid of all the regular planes. The entire Japanese combined air forces can attack all day long - and get something like one bomb hit - when there are NO opposing planes at all!

[el cid again]

Thanks ADavidB I'd already pretty much decided to do just that. It's just pathetic that in september of 1942 I have to surrender air superiority to Japan becasue the games air model won't allow me to be competative unless I fly against undefended bases.

If you use a very good mechanical model (it takes many days work to calculate one day game time for the theater) you will find that skilled Japanese players will control the sky anywhere they want in 1942. It is not until 1943 that the Allies can compete enough to try to control the sky, and then only at selected points. I don't think the air model is broken if you have this problem - and I might think it was if you didn't have this problem - against a good player. Game Japanese will produce better and organize better than the real Japanese did - and you should suffer the consequences of that.

[el cid again]

As I said before, there is no possibility of a Cactus Air Force scenario in WitP, you either control the air or you don't, period.

The situation in the Solomons in the early Fall of 1942 was one of limited resources for both sides. Both sides were at the limits of their supply chains and neither side was committing serious amounts of forces. The Japanese fighters were at their very limit of action over Lunga and the major problem for the US Marine fighters was naval bombardments. It took the US months to gain air control as both sides committed more and more forces.

Guadalcanal was probably a mistake. AFTER it was over we adopted a doctrine NEVER to do that again - you could not invade a point not covered by land based air power. We are very lucky the Japanese didn't send in more faster, and have more there to begin with. Air power works best when it is a network of bases, not a single forward field unsupported by others. You try this sort of thing against skilled players you are likely to lose more than air power! A Cactus Air Force WILL work if the enemy is dumb enough to commit piecemeal, from the limit of his range. It is just stupid of him to do that.