Models of Naval Combat

[mdiehl]

SOURCE:KBismarck.com - The Battleship Bismarck

Now *there's* a credible source. Not.

[hawker]

I got interesting story,take a look:

The Unbelievable Story of Cat Oscar

The story of the Bismarck's cat Oscar is really interesting and outstanding
one. This pretty black cat was the mascot of Bismarck, but interestingly,
Oscar never brought any 'luck' for the ships aboard. But, the cat itself was
amazingly lucky, that survived many times..

After the final battle of Bismarck, the British destroyer HMS Cossack (the
destroyer of Philip Vian) found a black, pretty cat among the floating debris
of Bismarck. The sailors survived this cat and get aboard Cossack. But it
seems as this pretty cat never brought any luck to the destroyer. About 5
months later, Cossack was hit & destroyed by a German submarine, and
Oscar was again among the survivors.

The cat was then brought aboard the famous aircraft carrier HMS Ark
Royal, which played a very important role during the chase and destruction
of Bismarck. But, only 3 weeks later, carrier HMS Ark Royal was sunk too,
due to a torpedo attack of another German submarine at Gibraltar. Oscar
survived during this adventure again. But after this event, the British sailors
never allowed the cat to be a mascot for any other ship again and the
lucky cat Oscar began to live in a place called 'The Home for Sailors' at
Belfast.

According to the Royal Navy records; "Oscar, the Bismarck's cat, finished
his days at the Home for Sailors in Belfast" in 1955. But, according to
some sailors' belief, he is an extraordinary creature with '9 - lives'. Oscar is
another saga among some sailors who certainly believe its outstanding
and unbelievable mystery.

This is really unbelievable.

[hawker]

Now *there's* a credible source. Not.

What is Your "credible" source[8D]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: hawker

I did. BB rate of fire was a function of the loading arrangements in the magazine and turret and whether the guns had to come to a fixed angle for loading, at least according to some material I read thirty years ago. The Bismarck could sustain 2 rpm, which was comparable with other European navies and inferior to American performance in the new battleships (about 2.5 rpm). The Yamato could sustain about 1.5 rpm. The improved US performance reflected a careful redesign during the 1930s. WWI American designs averaged 1.5, starting at 2 rpm early in the engagement and dropping to 1 rpm as shells had to be tarbuckled longer and longer distances.

Bismarck fire 3.3 rounds per minute,every 18 seconds-one shot
SOURCE:KBismarck.com - The Battleship Bismarck

Well, sure. But to do that, the guns had to be at their loading angle and they had to be using the ready ammo.

[mdiehl]

Nate Okun's BB comparison page at www.combinedfleet.com

Not only does it detail the specifications. It explains why the specifications matter. It is really an excellent, well researched, and widely acclaimed source. You should take a long, hard look at it. Passion for your nation is admirable, but a cold, hard, rational analysis does not make Bismarck look like the greatest BB ever made, not even in 1941, and sure as shooting not by 1944.

I'm not saying Germans sucked. I am not saying Bismarck sucked. I am saying that as BBs go, she was not the best. Moreover, I am saying that I think that Bismarck's value as an icon of teutonic pride (in which role she still apparently serves) exceeded her value as a line of battle ship or even as a commerce raider. I think Germany could have built better surface ships given her strategic position at the time.

[mdiehl]

This is really unbelievable.

That is a cool story. If you would like another one to research in your spare time, consider why Ms. Molly Brown became known as the "unsinkable Molly Brown." (Don't be confused by Gus Grissom's Gemini space capsule that was given the same nickname in irony.)

[hawker]

Nate Okun's BB comparison page at www.combinedfleet.com

Not only does it detail the specifications. It explains why the specifications matter. It is really an excellent, well researched, and widely acclaimed source. You should take a long, hard look at it. Passion for your nation is admirable, but a cold, hard, rational analysis does not make Bismarck look like the greatest BB ever made, not even in 1941, and sure as shooting not by 1944.

I'm not saying Germans sucked. I am not saying Bismarck sucked. I am saying that as BBs go, she was not the best. Moreover, I am saying that I think that Bismarck's value as an icon of teutonic pride (in which role she still apparently serves) exceeded her value as a line of battle ship or even as a commerce raider. I think Germany could have built better surface ships given her strategic position at the time.

1.So, www.combinedfleet.com is more reliable than my source,only your point of view
2.I am from Croatia,not Germany
3.You look what you want to see
4.Facts is facts-take a look on armor weight posted few posts before.

[hawker]

That is a cool story. If you would like another one to research in your spare time, consider why Ms. Molly Brown became known as the "unsinkable Molly Brown." (Don't be confused by Gus Grissom's Gemini space capsule that was given the same nickname in irony.)

Its hard to believe in that story,cat is doom for 3 ships[X(]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Nate Okun's BB comparison page at www.combinedfleet.com

Not only does it detail the specifications. It explains why the specifications matter. It is really an excellent, well researched, and widely acclaimed source. You should take a long, hard look at it. Passion for your nation is admirable, but a cold, hard, rational analysis does not make Bismarck look like the greatest BB ever made, not even in 1941, and sure as shooting not by 1944.

I'm not saying Germans sucked. I am not saying Bismarck sucked. I am saying that as BBs go, she was not the best. Moreover, I am saying that I think that apart from Bismarck's value as an icon of teutonic pride (in which role she still apparently serves) exceeded her value as a line of battle ship or even as a commerce raider. I think Germany could have built better surface ships given her strategic position at the time.

And I'll add that Nathan has the German documentation. He got hold of declassified copies--the USN had stamped them Top Secret--back about 1976. He made a set for me when I was translating them. Later when I was working on a relevant Navy proposal, I brought them into work, and security went ballistic until I pointed out the declassification markings. He has some incredible stuff. He probably knows more about ship armor than any other living American.

[mdiehl]

1.So, www.combinedfleet.com is more reliable than my source,only your point of view

I suspect many people would find combinedfleet.com to be more reliable. You are correct that such is my assessment. But one way I judge credibility is by the weight of the evidence and the analyses used to support the conclusions. I've inspected bismarck.com many times. Unless their management has substantially changed, I expect they are still exaggerating the virtues of Bismarck. As it has been noted above, the rate of fire stats for Bismarck from Bismarck.com are essentially "gunnery training stats" acheived at ideal loading rates.

2.I am from Croatia,not Germany

My bad. Generally speaking when I see someone passionatelty devoted to an irrational position I assume ethnic nationalism is showing its face.

3.You look what you want to see

That is not correct.

4.Facts is facts-take a look on armor weight posted few posts before.

I did. Now *you* should take a look at where the armor is thick, what sorts of shells it can stop, and so forth.

[Big B]

God I love this forum[:D], try to get a conversation like this at work..hmph!

Anyway - to my thinking that is why it would have been crucial to re-arm the two Scharnhorsts with 15"ers - to give them a much better chance in a shootout with RN BBs - if it ever came down to that....and it would have caused more tactical difficulties for the British. (not often I think Der Fuhrer was right)

Oh -and to the PBs being vulnerable to RN cruisers (River Platte) I have to agree. They should have been designed for better speed and perhaps a bit more protection against 8" gunfire - probably prohibitive in cost I suppose, but they would have been more survivable.[:)]

B

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Big B

Be that as it may, I think the 15" gun was still a practical and effective BB gun in WWII - even though the standard for a BB gun had been upped to 16" by the world's major navies as far back as the 1920s.

As you pointed out each country built for their own needs. This is one of the cases where I think Hitler was right in demanding that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau be armed with 3 twin 15" guns as well.
The Bismarcks and Scharnhorsts would have made a tremendously powerful raiding fleet/mini battlefleet, and would have given the Admiralty no end of headaches if they had been properly used.

B

They did... Actually, the Scharnhorst had about 25% more firepower with the 11" triples than it would have had with 15" doubles. It just didn't have the armor penetration.

[mdiehl]

Well, yeah guys, but wasn't Graf Spee *scuttled* primarily because of a ruse? Kudos to the UK skippers involved but the least I heard, the analysis was that Graf Spee should have accepted the challenge for a rematch since she would likely have won.

If I'm wrong there's another legend that I was fed (along with the superior Yamato superior Bismarck superior Zero superior Tiger Tank) etc whose bubble just went "poink!"

[hawker]

My bad. Generally speaking when I see someone passionatelty devoted to an irrational position I assume ethnic nationalism is showing its face.

1.So,where are you from,from my point of view you are devoted to irrational position.
I am no ethnic german if you point on that.

I did. Now *you* should take a look at where the armor is thick, what sorts of shells it can stop, and so forth.

2. I did. Now *you* should take a look at where the armor is thick, what sorts of shells it can stop, and so forth.

I "take" a look and in my opinion Bismarck is better than Richelieau,Rodney,NC,KGV class,all ships of her time.

Maybe its painfull for you,but it is true[;)]

[mdiehl]

I "take" a look and in my opinion Bismarck is better than Richelieau,Rodney,NC,KGV class,all ships of her time.

Maybe its painfull for you,but it is true

It's not painful for me, but it does make you irrational by any standard. Given that, for example, these simple and unavoidable facts:

1. At no range could Bismarck penetrate Yamato. 2. At every range Yamato could penetrate Bismarck.

Why would you rate Bismarck as best in her class? As BBs go, by "sheer weight of armor" which is your only crude measure of value (as though ships are just blobs of hit points or something), wouldn't Yamato be a better ship?

And if "the ability to make a hole in your opponent's armor while he is making a hole in your armor" matters, then Bismarck rapidly slides down to number five on the list of contemporary BBs.

I'm just saying that I know where Nate Okun is coming from because he's explained how he arrived at his assessment. If you want to topple Nate Okun as (arguably) the most knowledgeable individual in the world on WW2 BB design, you are going to have to offer more than "he's wrong." In the final analysis, summary rejection of contrary opinion by mere rhetorical dismissal is a dog that just won't hunt.

[hawker]

t's not painful for me, but it does make you irrational by any standard. Given that, for example, these simple and unavoidable facts:

1. At no range could Bismarck penetrate Yamato. 2. At every range Yamato could penetrate Bismarck.

Why would you rate Bismarck as best in her class? As BBs go, by "sheer weight of armor" which is your only crude measure of value (as though ships are just blobs of hit points or something), wouldn't Yamato be a better ship?

And if "the ability to make a hole in your opponent's armor while he is making a hole in your armor" matters, then Bismarck rapidly slides down to number five on the list of contemporary BBs.

And how we get to Yamato,put Yamato aside.
She is super battleship and more power than any other because i dont count her in debate.
Versus any other of her time Bismarck is equal or better.
As i said,from my point of view you are irrational and dont want to see facts.

[hawker]

Here is the another fun thing:
HMS Nelson's 9 16in main guns were named Happy, Grumpy, Sneezy, Dopey, Sleepy, Bashful, Doc, Mickey, and Minnie.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Well, yeah guys, but wasn't Graf Spee *scuttled* primarily because of a ruse? Kudos to the UK skippers involved but the least I heard, the analysis was that Graf Spee should have accepted the challenge for a rematch since she would likely have won.

If I'm wrong there's another legend that I was fed (along with the superior Yamato superior Bismarck superior Zero superior Tiger Tank) etc whose bubble just went "poink!"

[:D][:D][:D][:D]

Ahhhhhh continue to discuss

[Speedysteve]

Big B...

[mdiehl]

She is super battleship and more power than any other because i dont count her in debate.

Interesting. Yet, *other than yourself of course), most people regard Iowa as somewhat superior to Yamato, and SoDak as a weak contender for Yamato's equal.

Again, if you want anyone to believe you, you're going to have to offer some details. For example, you'd have to explain why you do not think that it matters that there is a very narrow range at which Bismarck can penetrate SoDak, while SoDak can hole Bismarck at a very large range. You'd have to explain why SoDak isn't superior, given SoDak's thicker deck armor, thicker barbette armor, thicker turret face armor, thicker top armor, thicker conning tower armor, and thicker intermagazine armor.

Details please, if you have any.

[hawker]

One more thing,
Brittish was so afraid of Tirpitz that major part of Home fleet move from base to base when Tirpitz move.
Tirpitz is directly responsible for disaster of convoy PQ 17 and she never come close to that convoy. Only a word "Tirpitz is at sea sir" is enough for panic.
Why,if she only "lousy battleship"
Tirpitz cause so much damage and she never fire her guns in battle if you dont count Spitzbergen

Disaster of PQ 17:
1."Alert,Tirpitz is coming,all escorts retreat at high speed"
2."Convoy should disperse"
3.Tirpitz went home and Luftwaffe finish the job