From interviews I've seen of vets they were fully aware that (and counting on) flamethrowers would suck all the oxygen out of a bunker even if the flames didn't reach all the way in. As long as the enemy died, they weren't exactly picky about the specifics.
('Course, it could be that was a later addition to their memories. *shrug*)
How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.
"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy
Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.
"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy
Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.
-
DuckofTindalos
- Posts: 39781
- Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
- Location: Denmark
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
I've heard enough accounts with variations of that theme to believe that this was very well known. That's the only way to fight a war: you do whatever it takes to get it over with as fast as possible.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
Aye, sucking the air out and causing asphyxiation by means of lack of oxygen, yes... But the Carbon Monoxide claim was one I was unaware of and one which I would find less probable.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
Carbon monoxide poisoning from flamethrowers does seem a bit far-fetched. Carbon monoxide poisoning from the generator exhaust I can believe.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.
"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy
Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.
"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy
Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
dtravel,
Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood you.
rtrapasso,
Really? Any link to info regarding this? I've treated carbon monoxide poisoning in real life and would be interested in reading about this phenomenon. Off the top of my head I can only see it being possible in relatively shallow complexes with poor ventilation and a relatively narrow main entrance ( which was being flamed). Still that would cover an awful lot of the fortifications the Japanese built.
Sorry i hadn't gotten back to this thread earlier.
This is what i have read/heard, unfortunately, i can not remember where i read/heard it, but i think it was from multiple sources. Alas, i heard/read about this at least 5 years ago. i think at least some of it came from Science News which is a nice little weekly science magazine covering a variety of subjects including medicine and archeology (and about anything else scientific under the sun.) i'll see if i can locate a good reference.
The stuff about "sucking out the oxygen" is what the troops thought during the war, but it turned out not to be true. IIRC, they conducted some limited experiments that showed flaming the mouth of a cave with flamethrowers (or, iirc, flamethrower-type liquids) produced lethal CO (carbon monoxide) levels deep inside the caves. There was lots of oxygen still left, though. IIRC, the toxic/fatal levels got down a lot deeper than anyone expected.
Nemo121, as you know from treating it, human hemoglobin has an avidity for CO far greater than it does for oxygen. It is odorless and pretty insidious, and tends to make you stupid. i rather doubt anyone in this situation would figure out what was happening to them.
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
OK - doing a search turned up this:
"Napalm (trade name) is a powder. Mixed with gasoline, it is a tactical weapon used to remove vegetative cover and instill fear. Napalm had an effect no one expected. Gilbert Dreyfus (Napalm and its Effects on Human Beings, 1967?) wrote "During the Second World War, troops found Japanese shelters which had been struck by Napalm bombs in which all the occupants were dead without having been burned at all. These soldiers had died, apparently without pain, and with an expression of fright and surprise frozen on to their faces...."
Air contains approximately twenty percent oxygen. When Napalm ignites, it rapidly deoxygenates the available air. Oxygen is replaced with carbon monoxide (CO) as a result of incomplete combustion. As little as 0.4 percent CO is fatal in one hour because of the high affinity between carbon monoxide and hemoglobin. Napalm creates a localized atmosphere of at least 20 percent carbon monoxide. "
iirc, i had read about some later experiments on caves (in conjunction with some archeological explorations) later on...
"Napalm (trade name) is a powder. Mixed with gasoline, it is a tactical weapon used to remove vegetative cover and instill fear. Napalm had an effect no one expected. Gilbert Dreyfus (Napalm and its Effects on Human Beings, 1967?) wrote "During the Second World War, troops found Japanese shelters which had been struck by Napalm bombs in which all the occupants were dead without having been burned at all. These soldiers had died, apparently without pain, and with an expression of fright and surprise frozen on to their faces...."
Air contains approximately twenty percent oxygen. When Napalm ignites, it rapidly deoxygenates the available air. Oxygen is replaced with carbon monoxide (CO) as a result of incomplete combustion. As little as 0.4 percent CO is fatal in one hour because of the high affinity between carbon monoxide and hemoglobin. Napalm creates a localized atmosphere of at least 20 percent carbon monoxide. "
iirc, i had read about some later experiments on caves (in conjunction with some archeological explorations) later on...
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
I've also turned up passing references to the carbon monoxide produced in toxic effects in napalm from Wikipedia, and in an online Army Field Manual(s) FM 8-9.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/doctr ... 9/3ch8.htm
These also make reference to deoxygenation of the atmosphere. As i said, i think this is now in doubt as a mechanism in widescale deaths by napalm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/doctr ... 9/3ch8.htm
These also make reference to deoxygenation of the atmosphere. As i said, i think this is now in doubt as a mechanism in widescale deaths by napalm.
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
In further reading, lots of different references to CO and napalm. The more current stuff says that CO poisoning is apparently the second leading cause of death due to napalm. The more current stuff generally doesn't pay attention to "deoxygenation". There is a NEJM review article (which i haven't read) which may be a bit dated:
N Engl J Med. 1967 Jul 13;277(2):86-8. Related Articles, Links
Current concepts. Napalm.
Reich P, Sidel VW.
Publication Types:
Review
PMID: 5338473 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
N Engl J Med. 1967 Jul 13;277(2):86-8. Related Articles, Links
Current concepts. Napalm.
Reich P, Sidel VW.
Publication Types:
Review
PMID: 5338473 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
rtrapasso,
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, as you say human haemoglobin has a much higher affinity for CO than O2 and hence the presence of even small quantities of CO would be enough to cause the haemoglobin to preferentially bind to the CO preventing future binding to O2 and leading to very rapid death. About the only treatment would be to get to the person quickly enough and overdose them on pure oxygen ( IOW giving them 100% oxygen)... This is obviously impractical on the battlefield.
Thanks for the info. It hadn't occurred to me as a mechanism of death from napalm attacks but the evidence seems pretty conclusive ( and reasonable on further reflection). very interesting, thanks.
As to de-oxygenation.... If we assume complete de-oxygenation of air in a given tunnel ( highly unlikely ) then we would simply be setting up a gradient for oxygen in air outside of the tunnel to osmose in. Since there had to be some access point for the fire/napalm etc which de-oxygenated the tunnel there would have to be a point of access for the oxygen to flow down this gradient. so, in order to have de-oxygenation cause deaths we would need to prevent this flow of oxygen into the de-oxygenated tunnel for a sufficiently long time that the troops would die before the de-oxygenation could kill them ( so, about 2 or 3 minutes... would take 5 minutes to die but after 2 or 3 minutes of anoxia it is unlikely that a significant number of people will come round themselves because they'll start having arrhythmias etc). Since the only ways I can think of to prevent this airflow would be to block the access point ( fairly impractical if we're talking about a tunnel opening) or to continue the fire at its original intensity for that time ( again unlikely) I imagine that the primary causes of death secondary to napalming of fortifications would be:
1. Being unlucky enough to stand beside the bomb when it explodes and getting burned alive.
2. Carbon Monoxide poisoning ( either acutely or in the medium term... survivors would be very moribund and incapable of rendering any coherent resistance).
3. Adult Sudden Respiratory Distress Syndrome ( sometimes known as shock lung) in which the inhalation of irritants into the lung can cause the lung to become acutely inflamed and relatively useless for gas exchange. Can occur very quickly following exposure to massive amounts of irritants ( such as would exist in a small, poorly ventilated cave which has been near-missed by napalm or had a flamethrower fired at the entrance) and would be almost 100% fatal on the battlefield. Even today severe cases only survive if ventilated by machine and lucky.
Thanks again for the info rtrapasso. I learnt some new things there.
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, as you say human haemoglobin has a much higher affinity for CO than O2 and hence the presence of even small quantities of CO would be enough to cause the haemoglobin to preferentially bind to the CO preventing future binding to O2 and leading to very rapid death. About the only treatment would be to get to the person quickly enough and overdose them on pure oxygen ( IOW giving them 100% oxygen)... This is obviously impractical on the battlefield.
Thanks for the info. It hadn't occurred to me as a mechanism of death from napalm attacks but the evidence seems pretty conclusive ( and reasonable on further reflection). very interesting, thanks.
As to de-oxygenation.... If we assume complete de-oxygenation of air in a given tunnel ( highly unlikely ) then we would simply be setting up a gradient for oxygen in air outside of the tunnel to osmose in. Since there had to be some access point for the fire/napalm etc which de-oxygenated the tunnel there would have to be a point of access for the oxygen to flow down this gradient. so, in order to have de-oxygenation cause deaths we would need to prevent this flow of oxygen into the de-oxygenated tunnel for a sufficiently long time that the troops would die before the de-oxygenation could kill them ( so, about 2 or 3 minutes... would take 5 minutes to die but after 2 or 3 minutes of anoxia it is unlikely that a significant number of people will come round themselves because they'll start having arrhythmias etc). Since the only ways I can think of to prevent this airflow would be to block the access point ( fairly impractical if we're talking about a tunnel opening) or to continue the fire at its original intensity for that time ( again unlikely) I imagine that the primary causes of death secondary to napalming of fortifications would be:
1. Being unlucky enough to stand beside the bomb when it explodes and getting burned alive.
2. Carbon Monoxide poisoning ( either acutely or in the medium term... survivors would be very moribund and incapable of rendering any coherent resistance).
3. Adult Sudden Respiratory Distress Syndrome ( sometimes known as shock lung) in which the inhalation of irritants into the lung can cause the lung to become acutely inflamed and relatively useless for gas exchange. Can occur very quickly following exposure to massive amounts of irritants ( such as would exist in a small, poorly ventilated cave which has been near-missed by napalm or had a flamethrower fired at the entrance) and would be almost 100% fatal on the battlefield. Even today severe cases only survive if ventilated by machine and lucky.
Thanks again for the info rtrapasso. I learnt some new things there.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
Perhaps Matrix can offer some Category I CME credits... [:D]
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
CME credits?
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
CME credits?
Continuing Medical Education credits... (referring to the Carbon Monoxide/Shock Lung medical discussion...) [:)]
RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?"
Hi, Been a while since I posted update to this thread.
1 July 1945
Japan 35442 Allies 55262 JSL 16684
B-29 have been stood down for over week waiting for supply TF to reach bases (a 3 bases went into red in supply) supply currently off loading at all three.
Allies have taken Rangoon.
Only 13 Japanese fighters spoted on CAP over home Islands so P-38's conducted sweep. 11 Tony-100 shot down 2 P-38 lost.
Still waiting for first bomb but July is first month that one may be added to pool. Bomb group deplyed Iwo Jima waiting bomb.
Allies need 15,622 VP for victory is Japanese total remains as is. I am hoping it goes down from lack of supply to bases in South/Central Pacific. I think I will capture several hundred VP worth of bases this month in China/Burma/DEI. Only Takao remains in Japanese hands on Formosa and it should fall in next few days. Engineers and Aviation support already enroute. (B-29 will operate from there when airfield secure and repaired and supplied. )
The B-29 must socre a lot of points this month. I am counting on around 4k from use of bomb when it arrives.
1 July 1945
Japan 35442 Allies 55262 JSL 16684
B-29 have been stood down for over week waiting for supply TF to reach bases (a 3 bases went into red in supply) supply currently off loading at all three.
Allies have taken Rangoon.
Only 13 Japanese fighters spoted on CAP over home Islands so P-38's conducted sweep. 11 Tony-100 shot down 2 P-38 lost.
Still waiting for first bomb but July is first month that one may be added to pool. Bomb group deplyed Iwo Jima waiting bomb.
Allies need 15,622 VP for victory is Japanese total remains as is. I am hoping it goes down from lack of supply to bases in South/Central Pacific. I think I will capture several hundred VP worth of bases this month in China/Burma/DEI. Only Takao remains in Japanese hands on Formosa and it should fall in next few days. Engineers and Aviation support already enroute. (B-29 will operate from there when airfield secure and repaired and supplied. )
The B-29 must socre a lot of points this month. I am counting on around 4k from use of bomb when it arrives.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!