Naval and Defense News

[Dysta]

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Holy bumbling bull cookies !

Wait, do I miss something? Oh yeah, more pictures and official reports. Now I am done here.

[tjhkkr]

This is interesting.

Marine Corps forced to pull warbirds out of 'boneyard' after new fleet delay

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/marine ... ar-AAhppQQ

[Dysta]

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

This is interesting.

Marine Corps forced to pull warbirds out of 'boneyard' after new fleet delay

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/marine ... ar-AAhppQQ

I tried to google and wiki what's the purpose of USMC with hornets, but only a pile of unrelated informations. Wasn't carrier op is belongs to the Navy? And how do they deploy them if they are only land and take off from airfields?

[mikmykWS]

Here you go

http://www.gonavy.jp/usmcindex.html

You can also look at carrier deployments and see they've embarked a squadron or three on Navy carriers regularly since WWII.

Mike

[Dysta]

Wow, many thanks.

[Hongjian]

The Type 001A improved Admiral Kutznesov-class (Or "Liaoning-II class") carrier is progressing fast. Now, the flight deck became unmistakenly visible. No doubts anymore, that this will be a fixed wing carrier. Red parts are those recently added.




A launch by the end of this year or early next year might be entirely possible.

Time for a "Liaoning-II class" entry? I think not, until the improvements/alterations over the CV-16 Liaoning clearly visible. CIWS loadout, deck-space and such...

[Dysta]

The ski ramp is already curved and raised high enough, and now the rounded edge? Somebody's radar is going to be very happy. If they are building low observable frigates and destroyers, then why isn't the carrier should do the same?

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Time for a "Liaoning-II class" entry? I think not, until the improvements/alterations over the CV-16 Liaoning clearly visible. CIWS loadout, deck-space and such...

Agreed. At the rate they are building though it won't be too much longer!


Mike

[xavierv]

Found something quite interesting at a (rather small and local) naval defense show in Poland this week:

IAI Elta Showcasing Navantia F100, DCNS FREMM & BAE Type 26 Designs with MF-STAR Radar

At the 14th Baltic Military Fair BALT-MILITARY-EXPO 2016 held this week in Gdansk, Poland, Israeli company IAI Elta was showcasing (via a video) several frigates designs fitted with the MF-STAR multifunctional Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) naval radar for long-range air and surface surveillance and tracking. These designs are contenders in the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) program and IAI just joined forces with Rheinmetall Canada to propose the MF-STAR to the Canadian Navy future surface combatant.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=4118

Balt Military Expo 2016: DAMEN Unveils SIGMA 10514PL Designs Based on SIGMA 10514 PKR

At Balt Military Expo 2016 held in Gdansk, Poland, from 20 to 22 June 2016, Dutch shipbuilder DAMEN unveiled updated designs of its SIGMA family. A company representative explained to Navy Recognition that the updated designs feature more sleek, modern and stealthy lines. It is based on the same hull as the SIGMA 10514 PKR already selected by the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL).

The two designs unveiled at Balt Military Expo, are representative of what DAMEN is offering to the Polish navy for the Miecznik (Damen designation: SIMGA 10514PL Coastal Defense Ship) and the Czapla offshore patrol vessels (Damen designation: SIGMA 10514PL Patrol Ship).

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=4104

[Broncepulido]

I doubt very much an aircraft carrier can be designed with a lot of stealth on mind, because the signal mess created by the aircraft and ancilliary equipment parked and packed on the deck (But Gerald Ford has some stealth design, think in her island, and also the newer SPS-49 mast in Nimitz-class replace the lattice with a stealthier closed mast).

[thewood1]

The talk I saw on stealth design for large warships, and especially carriers, was not to hide them or even retard detection. It was to make them look more like a commercial ship.

[BradOrbital]

I like the look of those SIGMA's.

[Dysta]

ORIGINAL: bradinggs

I like the look of those SIGMA's.

Yea, especially the bridge. Extended size for better observability, without being looks unaesthetic.

[Hongjian]

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2016/ ... allow.html

Run loud, Run Shallow

Just a few days after unveiling the new Type 093B Shang Class SSN to the public (Our friend Jeffrey Lin has a good write-up on this new sub here), a Type 093A and her entourage just sail across the Strait of Malacca in broad daylight while singing "we are not hiding anymore" along the way.

Final confirmation of the existence of the Type 093A Shang-class boat, which is the predecessor of the 093B/G SSGN.

And that, via photo of it openly sailing the the Malacca Strait in broad daylight! As if the PLAN has nothing to hide anymore. Damn, looks like my feeling was right after the release of that 093B photo earlier: The PLAN is starting to get more open about their nuclear submarine fleet, formerly the most secretive of all Chinese branches.



No VLS hump in the back, but notice the Virginia-styled conning tower of this sub (still with diving planes, though). This is the very first clear picture of the intermediate upgrade of the improved Shang-class SSN.

Chinese SSN roaming the Indian Ocean should become a routine, after this. No point in hiding now.

[Dysta]

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

The PLAN is starting to get more open about their nuclear submarine fleet, formerly the most secretive of all Chinese branches.

Still not quite. There's a clear difference between showing and presenting.

CCTV had reported the size, tonnage, speed and somehow even sensor and weapon suites for some surface vessels in many years, as well as the newly commissioned ship's name and pennant number.

But for submarines, even the non-nuclear powered types are very rarely reported, besides the crew's mission, journey and training being shown on TV. There's none being reported about the actual specification since the indigenous designs like Song, Han and Xia classes, and the relative information are vague and general.

There are some rumored and leaked theatrical reports about Chinese submarine developments, but Chinese officials never addressed them. So the recent exposure of Chinese subs at foreign waters are more for giving clear message of naval presence (a rather primitive attempt consider it's surface warship's job), and showing the capability of long-distance operation.

[mikmykWS]

A good scenario would be to see how one of these stacks up hunting against an Indian Akula or Kilo.

Mike

[Hongjian]

Seems like this news were first brought by the Indonesian Navy. Here, we see their 'take' on that first-ever open crossing of the Malacca Strait by PLAN SSN.




Regarding the 093 Shang-class, it seems like we suddenly know a lot about that family of nuclear subs. (or called "09III" in original Chinese designation, as "Project 09" is the designation for all nuclear submarines, while "III" means the "third member" of the "Project 09". I will from now on use this original designation:

1.Type 09III, Dec 1998 - two vessels of this first design delivered 2002 and 2003 respectively. The 'most common' Shang-class that you will find when you google it, straight conning tower and generally looks like a LA-class, but with lookout windows on the tower.


^This commemorative coin is providing evidence of the date of construction, which is the only confirmed data we have.

2.Type 09III TASS Testbed, mid 2000s, unknown number, but suggested that there should be one boat. Features same conning tower as the basic Shang-class, but has the long 'external' TASS housing on starboard side (as posted by Dysta earlier). Probably a test-bed for the TASS.

3. Type 09IIIA, late 2000s, unknown number, but suggested that there should be two of them around. Features a conning tower with a bit more blended design like the Virgina-class but with diving planes, and apparently still with the soviet-styled lookout windows. The only pictoral evidence of that boat, aside of photoshopped or extremely blurred leaks, are the photos above, taken during its transit of the Malacca Strait.

4. Type 09IIIB, mid 2010s, at least three boats confirmed as per satellite images from 2013. Features another new conning tower that lacks the lookout windows and has a more 'rounded' design in general. VLS hump confirmed by satellite and that magazine scan released in June 2016. This type should be China's first real SSGN.

^Commemorative coin does not show the construction date, sadly, but the hump behind the back. Perhaps it even shows an early variant of that does not feature the Virginia-styled conning tower, even though it has a hump, not to mention that the conning tower looks extremely long as well. Mysterious indeed.


So, we could have identified four seperate sub-classes of the Project 09III family by piecing this puzzle together. This work took at least ten years, looking back at the earliest (and most blurred) images that were posted on the web. Kudos to the PLAN hiding these boats for so long from public eyes.

[Anathema]

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2016/ ... allow.html

Run loud, Run Shallow

Just a few days after unveiling the new Type 093B Shang Class SSN to the public (Our friend Jeffrey Lin has a good write-up on this new sub here), a Type 093A and her entourage just sail across the Strait of Malacca in broad daylight while singing "we are not hiding anymore" along the way.

Final confirmation of the existence of the Type 093A Shang-class boat, which is the predecessor of the 093B/G SSGN.

And that, via photo of it openly sailing the the Malacca Strait in broad daylight! As if the PLAN has nothing to hide anymore. Damn, looks like my feeling was right after the release of that 093B photo earlier: The PLAN is starting to get more open about their nuclear submarine fleet, formerly the most secretive of all Chinese branches.



No VLS hump in the back, but notice the Virginia-styled conning tower of this sub (still with diving planes, though). This is the very first clear picture of the intermediate upgrade of the improved Shang-class SSN.

Chinese SSN roaming the Indian Ocean should become a routine, after this. No point in hiding now.

It is very difficult for a sub to transit through Indonesia from the SCS into the Indian Ocean (or vice versa) while submerged because the waters are very shallow in most places. Even US subs have to transit the Straits of Malacca on the surface because from memory it is only around 90 feet deep in places and full of deep draught surface vessels. It is even too shallow for some large commercial ships and they have to use the Lombok Strait instead.

[Dysta]

It's more like a collision hazard with other civilian ships than lacks of sea depth. Submerging and creeping around oil tankers is a very bad idea. Periscope depth may do since it need around 15 meters (50 feets) to submerge, and some commercial-intensive straits are deep enough for it.

Interestingly, Indonesian media regard it is a normal and safe transit, as long as it's under surveillance/supervision by foreign navies. They never mention it's a direct response of SCS dispute from China, which is yet to confirm if Chinese Navy really meant it.

[Anathema]

That was basically my point. A sub sharing that small stretch of water of water that is only 90 feet deep with commercial shipping that often have a draught of 60 or 70 feet is obviously a recipe for disaster. The Malacca Strait is one of the busiest stretches of water in the entire world and one of the few places where you get the equivalent of a maritime traffic jam with ships queuing up to make the passage and hundreds of ships passing through it every day, which I believe also requires a pilot as well.

I basically meant that the PLAN sub or any other navy doesn't have a choice and if you want to transit the Malacca Strait in a sub you have to do it on the surface and reveal to the world your previously secret sub because the alternative is just too risky. It is also fairly useless in wartime because your enemies would know your sub is coming and could simply wait at the other end for it, or simply strike while it is surfaced. Indonesia is basically a chokepoint with only a few possible routes for subs or large ships with a deep draught, but that means they are obviously very busy with commercial traffic as well, so the options are limited for subs wanting to stay submerged and not risk a collision with a surface vessel.

For a sub in the SCS it would be far better to sail into the Celebes Sea, down through the Makassar and Lombok Strait into the Timor Sea, then the Indian Ocean because that is a journey you could make while submerged without having to worry about hitting a commercial ship and why I said it was difficult, not impossible. But again in wartime that isn't the best idea simply because it is the most obvious route and where you would concentrate any ASW efforts.

I never meant it as a comment on the SCS disputes and Indonesia would be foolish to start refusing transit to anyone because so much of the world's shipping passes through their waters and would probably anger almost every SCS, Pacific and Indian Ocean nation, as well as the Persian Gulf states who would all worry about their own shipping, although I do believe the strait is under joint Malaysian, Indonesian and Singaporean control.