The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[el lobo]

Thanks Pax.

I agree with your assessment.

The problem I have is all of those subs who's sole mission is to find and attack the KB.

So what is the best way to deal with them re protecting the KB?

I already have twenty-plus air groups, not counting recon, and more on way.

[el lobo]

Thanks Lowpe.

Basically, my instincts since forming the KB was to do what Pax suggested but as you can see, it's all those subs that have me worried.

As far as planes go, I think I am up-to-speed there. The Frank is purple and will start production in a couple of days. The Irving S will start production next turn.

Sorry about not more information. I think Rio is playing his game very well. What we are seeing is the spear-head and he is going straight for the jugular. As we saw in Burma, he is not concerned with stopping Japanese production. (He could have shut-down oil production there six months ago.)

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Thanks Pax.

I agree with your assessment.

The problem I have is all of those subs who's sole mission is to find and attack the KB.

So what is the best way to deal with them re protecting the KB?

I already have twenty-plus air groups, not counting recon, and more on way.

22 hex from Saipan. So 2 or 3 turns. If you do this, you have to plan 2 turns. Not much time.

Subs are expected. Jun 43, so consider US subs fully effective. Protection is always the same, no secret. ASW air groups, night/day. Enough for at least double coverage on every hex both night/day. HI DL is needed. Then 3xSC/E ASW TF's. Subs don't press attacks with DL ... or better to say, probability is a LOT lower. Higher the DL , lower the attack probability. High DL also means your ASW TF's are getting involved.

Next, KB has to move, but stay within the ASW perimeter. Put her escorts' FP's on ASW, alternating day/night.

I would be using 2x24 Jake from each of Guam, Tinian, and Saipan for this. He's flooding in +20 subs, you have ~60 ASW aircraft both day and night. At least 2:1. His subs will be unhappy, your ASW TF's are going to run through a lot of DC's ... this is where the AD, AGP, and AG's can really help. You want to be sure to base your ASW TF's from multiple ports so when they come in to rearm, it happens right away.

Then, of course, additional Jake groups for NavSearch to keep all of his ship at high DL. When you win the DL contest, you generally win the attack sequences. The Air AI will assign the right groups to the right targets and the right profiles. DL is king.

Question is: did you plan for the ASW? It sounds like you didn't. If not, don't try, but be ready next time. The allies have 3 - 5X more subs than you do and they are better and good players will use them. You should as well, flood the areas where he is likely to stage ships.

Finally, assembling your KB ... there are a lot of ways to do this. Some players have an ASW TF as lead, some have a few ASW TF's as loose tails, some both; some use independent ASW TF's in association with the KB ... lot's of possibilities. I use all of the above depending upon circumstance ... others might suggest what they do.

Since I play against the AI, I'm not fighting against skill, but rather brute force. Players like Lowpe will have much better insights on KB TF composition ... via PM. I doubt any player will publish details with ongoing games in progress.

[el lobo]

PACIFIC Jun 19, 1943 Turn 560

A little more info.

Sig Int reports heavy volume of radio transmissions at 123,95.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Also remember that we are seeing the game with super limited information.

+1

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
The most important thing to do is be true to yourself. It is your game, don't let the peanut gallery talk you into doing something you don't fully understand whether it is attack or retreat or something in between.

+1

[Lowpe]

My goodness, the Allies are getting close![X(]

In the kitchen sink attack, Japanese sigint normally always gives you good intel about the main threat location, especially if a few subs are near.

[Lowpe]

When Tiemanj did this to me, he constantly surprised me with his deathstar movements.

I can remember his deathstar rushing forward and launching devastating sweeps and bombing missions. My KB was woefully out of position sinking a bunch of British cruisers west of Tavoy. My runways and land based air was caught by surprise by the Deathstar rushing forward.

But then I recovered a little, started wearing down the deathstars planes with cap traps, but there were replenishment task forces close enough to constantly refill the deathstar's fighter squadrons.

The KB arrived, but by then I believe a base or two had fallen and the Allies were even bolder with the deathstar moving it west of Guam...I think I lost my patience, zigged when I should have zagged, and got crushed...probably should have done better but my A6M5c's didn't escort for strange reasons...and my CAP disappointed as I was foolishly experimenting with some different settings.

All operator mistakes not being used to large CV warfare against a person. I remember using multiple task forces for the first time, and my fleets ended up in different hexes once costing my a carrier.

In short I was simply outplayed by the kitchen sink. I was definitely not prepared for it at all as the game was rather quiet prior. Allies were massed, and I wasn't.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
In short I was simply outplayed by the kitchen sink. I was definitely not prepared for it at all as the game was rather quiet prior. Allies were massed, and I wasn't.

It is always like this initially while in strategic defensive stance, no matter preparations. The latter help you to faster mass whatever assets reachable for an efficient counterattack and not squander them piecemeal. El lobo is in quite ok position for this

[el lobo]

Well, this is going to be exciting.

The only way I am going to be comfortable with this is to commit every fighting ship in the area to protecting the KB. Maybe that is the way it should be any way.

I have split the KB in to a faster KB and a slower KB. The faster KB has nine CVs and CVLs five of which have new radar. It also includes a faster BB and six DDs,

The slower KB has seven CV, CVLs, and CVEs, one of which has new radar. It includes a BB and four DDs.

I will send them separately but will join them together when they arrive in the same hex.

Seven SCTFs of various make-up will either head out separately or follow. They will be joined by two more SCTFs that are presently at the Marianas.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

22 hex from Saipan. So 2 or 3 turns. If you do this, you have to plan 2 turns. Not much time.

They are on their way. I am going with your post #997, "KB can be positioned just behind the Marianas to hit the amphib."

This will be fifteen hexes from their present position. Should make it in two days.

Subs are expected. Jun 43, so consider US subs fully effective. Protection is always the same, no secret. ASW air groups, night/day. Enough for at least double coverage on every hex both night/day. HI DL is needed. Then 3xSC/E ASW TF's. Subs don't press attacks with DL ... or better to say, probability is a LOT lower. Higher the DL , lower the attack probability. High DL also means your ASW TF's are getting involved.

Next, KB has to move, but stay within the ASW perimeter. Put her escorts' FP's on ASW, alternating day/night.

Setting as per.

I would be using 2x24 Jake from each of Guam, Tinian, and Saipan for this. He's flooding in +20 subs, you have ~60 ASW aircraft both day and night. At least 2:1. His subs will be unhappy, your ASW TF's are going to run through a lot of DC's ... this is where the AD, AGP, and AG's can really help. You want to be sure to base your ASW TF's from multiple ports so when they come in to rearm, it happens right away.

Good idea. I never considered that. I have more Jakes moving-in.

Then, of course, additional Jake groups for NavSearch to keep all of his ship at high DL. When you win the DL contest, you generally win the attack sequences. The Air AI will assign the right groups to the right targets and the right profiles. DL is king.

Question is: did you plan for the ASW? It sounds like you didn't. If not, don't try, but be ready next time. The allies have 3 - 5X more subs than you do and they are better and good players will use them. You should as well, flood the areas where he is likely to stage ships.

I have ten 3X and 4X SC ASW TFs, and one E ASW TF, at Iwo and in the area to the south. Five are heading down. Of the others, three will top-up, one needs to re-arm and the one is escorting a TF for two or three turns. I have three or four more heading down. One problem is that the better ones are short-leged.

[el lobo]

I follow your AARs. I don't comment as I am still a newbe but I can say that you play better making mistakes than I do at my best.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

All operator mistakes not being used to large CV warfare against a person. I remember using multiple task forces for the first time, and my fleets ended up in different hexes once costing my a carrier.

I have noticed this happening several times, obvert being another. I will try to avoid this.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

El lobo is in quite ok position for this

I hope you are right.

Fasten your seat-belts and cross your fingers.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
I have split the KB in to a faster KB and a slower KB. The faster KB has nine CVs and CVLs five of which have new radar. It also includes a faster BB and six DDs,

The slower KB has seven CV, CVLs, and CVEs, one of which has new radar. It includes a BB and four DDs.

"
The coordination of air strikes is affected by how many Carrier aircraft are based in
the TF launching a strike. The chance of uncoordination is doubled under the following
circumstances:
»» Allied TF in 1942 and the number of aircraft in the
TF is greater than 100 + rnd (100).
»» Allied TF in 1943 and the number of aircraft in the
TF is greater than 150 + rnd (150).
»» Allied TF in 1944 or later or a Japanese TF at any time and the
number of aircraft in the TF is greater than 200 + rnd (200).
"
So, if you have between 201-399 aircraft based in your CV TF, you have a probability of have uncoordination doubled. At 400 aircraft it will be doubled.

Not stating you do anything different, just making sure you are aware of this.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Well, this is going to be exciting.

The only way I am going to be comfortable with this is to commit every fighting ship in the area to protecting the KB. Maybe that is the way it should be any way.

+1
Along with every spare air group you can find and then some. I would also have +4 ID's embarking. Assuming you are successful with the Naval Op, you will want to 'clean up' the land portion as fast as possible.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

They are on their way. I am going with your post #997, "KB can be positioned just behind the Marianas to hit the amphib."

This will be fifteen hexes from their present position. Should make it in two days.

KB can be anywhere from Pagan on down south. Adjust your ASW umbrella as you move the KB. A lot of clicking to adjust, but ... keep your Patrols out as best you can ... as the Armada closes in, losses will mount. Once in range, Netties (with pilots of correct skill) do a good job of NavSearch. Then of course your Jakes, close in, they are your best. You will lose TONS of them against all of his CAP. Against the AI, I will lose +40/day (just Jakes) ... but that is what they are for ... they sell themselves to get you DL ... it is worth every one of them.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

"
The coordination of air strikes is affected by how many Carrier aircraft are based in
the TF launching a strike. The chance of uncoordination is doubled under the following
circumstances:
»» Allied TF in 1942 and the number of aircraft in the
TF is greater than 100 + rnd (100).
»» Allied TF in 1943 and the number of aircraft in the
TF is greater than 150 + rnd (150).
»» Allied TF in 1944 or later or a Japanese TF at any time and the
number of aircraft in the TF is greater than 200 + rnd (200).
"
So, if you have between 201-399 aircraft based in your CV TF, you have a probability of have uncoordination doubled. At 400 aircraft it will be doubled.

Not stating you do anything different, just making sure you are aware of this.

I did not know this! I will adjust.

Thank you.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Well, this is going to be exciting.

The only way I am going to be comfortable with this is to commit every fighting ship in the area to protecting the KB. Maybe that is the way it should be any way.

+1
Along with every spare air group you can find and then some. I would also have +4 ID's embarking. Assuming you are successful with the Naval Op, you will want to 'clean up' the land portion as fast as possible.

Noted. RE the ground units. This may take awhile. I have them but the shipping is not there yet.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: el lobo

They are on their way. I am going with your post #997, "KB can be positioned just behind the Marianas to hit the amphib."

This will be fifteen hexes from their present position. Should make it in two days.

KB can be anywhere from Pagan on down south. Adjust your ASW umbrella as you move the KB. A lot of clicking to adjust, but ... keep your Patrols out as best you can ... as the Armada closes in, losses will mount. Once in range, Netties (with pilots of correct skill) do a good job of NavSearch. Then of course your Jakes, close in, they are your best. You will lose TONS of them against all of his CAP. Against the AI, I will lose +40/day (just Jakes) ... but that is what they are for ... they sell themselves to get you DL ... it is worth every one of them.

PACIFIC Jun 20, 1943 Turn 561

I am pleased at the coordination of this move, credit to the AI. The KBs are in the middle of the pack. Only one ASW and one SCTF are dected, 4/4. Ironically the slower KB is one hex ahead of the faster KB. They are headed to the marked hex.

I have over a dozen sub "Hits" in the Combat Events. I realize that in terms of damage this means little, but it lights them-up.

I am losing a lot of Jakes already.

[PaxMondo]

If the hits are DC's, generally, the sub has to go home after the 2nd one ... so 12 hits ... maybe 2 or 3 subs have RTB. a good thing.

Losing Jakes already ... so he is LRCAPing his advance TF's ... that first TF is 10 hexes out from Saipan, 11 from Guam.

A good tactic is to be sure you have your subs in the same hex that you attack. They will recover a LOT of pilots ...

[Lowpe]

If you are going all in then this is the time for all your midget subs and whatever MTB you have. 10,000+ supply and a level 1 port (undamaged) are the requirements. You want to create them the day before you use them.

If you have MGB, I recommend forming them at Tokyo and converting them to MTB status for later use.

Mines and CD guns....wherever...they will take a toll on the minesweepers. Sub dropped mines are great, powerful and strong.

+1 on saving your pilots.

Move some AR/AD/AS/AKE/AG and Naval Support to the Bonins & Ulithi. Might save some ships that way. Oilers and and fuel there too. Japanese CV run out of fuel so darn fast.

Don't forget some night naval torpedo runs...they are within range if you have the squadron(s). Start depleting his ammunition.