RHS 5 & 6.758 comprehensive update uploaded/frozen/final?

[davidjruss]

Sid,

Re B29's in pool at commencement of RHSCVO . I have done a compete new install of RHS over a new install of WITP utilising the latest scenario 6.655, v6 maps and updated icons.
At the end of the AI first Turn as Japan the aircraft replacement pool again shows 14 B29's available. I do not know what other file I require ( your post 1035 refers ).

DavidR

[TulliusDetritus]

Internet problems finally fixed [:@] El Cid Again, there is a "minor" problem with CVO 6.553.

I started a game (H2H). On the 2nd turn I tried to load the Japanese 14th Army HQ but it did not work. Same thing with the 16th Army HQ. Since I didn't have internet I was "forced" to open the editor and fix the problem myself (if that was possible). The very first time I do that. Wonder if I can play the accordion too! [8D] I checked the Japanese Army HQ's:

The 14th and 16th armies => HQ type = 31
All the other armies => HQ type = 1

I just deleted the "3", saved and it worked.

Well, I think the 17th Amphib Army HQ is wrong too.

[el cid again]

It may be wrong, but it is on purpose! I see no reason that Japanese amphib armies should not get the code benefits of these formations - so I did it. Further - I have not noticed any problem. Will test.

[davidjruss]

Sid,

Re B29's in pool at start of game. Received your dat file by pm and have just run 1st turn RHSCVO on HTH basis and there are no B29's in pool now.

Is the dat file in the download area faulty as I used this and got the error.

DavidR

[TulliusDetritus]

El Cid Again, it may be on purpose, but you "created" a [non intended] bug. These units cannot be loaded, so they are sort of "static": the 14th Army won't leave Formosa. The 16th will stay in Palau. The Army HQ's give combat bonuses. That's what they are for. The command radius is = 1. If you can't move them to the front they are useless. That is the issue. The "HQ Type = 31" means the ships do not recognize them, I guess. They do not exist, therefore they do not load them.

[Dili]

That said, I am all ears about a way to eat the supplies that does not result in quite so large a supply sink. Hard code could do this in a wink of an eye. I would regard no supplies as better than too many - and soft control of the ratio as even better. But tolerating this design flaw is beyond my capacity: you want to leave all those supplies - and combine that with no damage to local production of resources and industry - (even if only disruption due to people not going to work for some days production is not going to instantly be at 100%) - you have lost me. I won't play a game that does not work logistics wise. We must abstract many things - and this in the end is going to be one of them. I will do better if a better way is found - but abandoning the concept is not doing better - it is to revert to a system wholly unacceptable to me.

 
 
Putting a tiny engineer unit in city hex will achieve destruction and a supply sink in a contiguos hex will eat supplies too.
 
Like i said before my syst works ok for me. All my Japanese Units including ships in DEI  have no replacements/no upgrades ON and only change when a supply from continental Japan or Indochina arrives for 1-2 turns.

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

El Cid Again, it may be on purpose, but you "created" a [non intended] bug. These units cannot be loaded, so they are sort of "static": the 14th Army won't leave Formosa. The 16th will stay in Palau. The Army HQ's give combat bonuses. That's what they are for. The command radius is = 1. If you can't move them to the front they are useless. That is the issue. The "HQ Type = 31" means the ships do not recognize them, I guess. They do not exist, therefore they do not load them.

The Amphibious Army HQ are correct to be a type 31. They load only on AGPclass ships. Now whether Japan starts with any is another question as they cannot convert an AK to an AGP.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: DavidR

Sid,

Re B29's in pool at start of game. Received your dat file by pm and have just run 1st turn RHSCVO on HTH basis and there are no B29's in pool now.

Is the dat file in the download area faulty as I used this and got the error.

DavidR

Might be. I don't control that. Even if I did - still might be. Information theory says - if a large data set - there must be errors.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

El Cid Again, it may be on purpose, but you "created" a [non intended] bug. These units cannot be loaded, so they are sort of "static": the 14th Army won't leave Formosa. The 16th will stay in Palau. The Army HQ's give combat bonuses. That's what they are for. The command radius is = 1. If you can't move them to the front they are useless. That is the issue. The "HQ Type = 31" means the ships do not recognize them, I guess. They do not exist, therefore they do not load them.

I find that rediculous and hard to believe. On the other hand, I listen to users. Testing. If true it is one sided code - the Allies can load such units.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

El Cid Again, it may be on purpose, but you "created" a [non intended] bug. These units cannot be loaded, so they are sort of "static": the 14th Army won't leave Formosa. The 16th will stay in Palau. The Army HQ's give combat bonuses. That's what they are for. The command radius is = 1. If you can't move them to the front they are useless. That is the issue. The "HQ Type = 31" means the ships do not recognize them, I guess. They do not exist, therefore they do not load them.

The Amphibious Army HQ are correct to be a type 31. They load only on AGPclass ships. Now whether Japan starts with any is another question as they cannot convert an AK to an AGP.

Aha. Thanks. OK - here is the deal - without knowing about this - I reclassified two Japanese ships as AGC - because they really were - among other functions. Yamashita really was aboard one of them for Malaya IRL. She is Akitsu Maru, ship slot 519, starts in TF 3602 in EOS and at Bako [Pescadores] in all other scenarios. The "ferries" from Formosa to Bako mean you can "march" there too. Her sister is Nigitsu Maru and she appears at Tokyo on 430315. Now that does not solve the problem entirely - but this portion of it is "pre solved." Note that the Akitsu Maru converts to a CVE (if you let it upgrade) and gains Army type carrier aircraft late in the war in CVO and RAO.

We have a report of device shifting at industries - checking that. We have got back enhanced location files from Blitzk. And I have found some aircraft/group eratta doing a line by line utility. There will be an update shortly.

I have "converted" the Shinshu Maru to an AGC. She is the very first ship in history to have that function. These ships are hard to classify - they are sort of like modern LHAs - with many functions. But she exists when the war begins -
in TF 3491 in all scenarios.

Since I use USN/joint Allied nomenclature - these ships have the type descriptor [LSH] after their names [Landing Ship Headquarters]

[TulliusDetritus]

El Cid Again, does this mean these Japanese "Amphib" HQ's will only be able to embark aboard these 2 (or more) ships (AGC or whatever)? The next question is obvious... what happens if those few ships are sunk...? If yes, these HQ's will never move again (let's imagine they are in a tiny island). I don't get the point, sorry, but I would say this is 100% absurd: "yes, this is indeed a threat: gimme an AGC or we won't move! We have enough sake and rice. You are warned!".

[el cid again]

That bug shifting devices in important locations in Japan (giving you lots of manpower and little HI)
is present in 5 of 6 scenarios at all levels. 6.656 will correct this as well as fold in the efficieny improvements
of Blitzk, make Shinshu Maru an AGC, and correct some air group eratta. [The term "Hikodan" should be
"Hikoshidan" for example - a few units needed command corrections - etc]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

El Cid Again, does this mean these Japanese "Amphib" HQ's will only be able to embark aboard these 2 (or more) ships (AGC or whatever)? The next question is obvious... what happens if those few ships are sunk...? If yes, these HQ's will never move again (let's imagine they are in a tiny island). I don't get the point, sorry, but I would say this is 100% absurd: "yes, this is indeed a threat: gimme an AGC or we won't move! We have enough sake and rice. You are warned!".

Well - I didn't write the code. I am an artist at applying it. The Amphibious command HQ and ships do have some benefits. There may be a limitiation as well - but I would not have set it that way. You can tell a troop unit to board any ship - and I sailed on an AP that was the finest flagship in the fleet - including cruisers, battleships and carriers! Admirals loved our spacious quarters, Flag Plot (a CIC for the admiral), and a THIRD CIC in case we had an air battle to control. So I don't think saying an AP cannot embark a HQ makes a lot of sense. Whoever did this didn't sail on one!

I already have added a third AGC - Shinshu Maru. She starts the war too. She was the very first designed to purpose amphibious ship in history - and a mid 1930s example of Japanese inter service cooperation. Designed and built by the navy to Army requirements with army weapons, paid for and operated for the Army, she had a naval crew! I will see if there are more.

[Dili]

She was in Malaya and DEI where it was torpedoed in a "friendly fire" incident.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Dili

She was in Malaya and DEI where it was torpedoed in a "friendly fire" incident.

She was indeed - and raised only to be torpedoed again - more effectively in deep water - by a "hostile fire" incident.
She sailed under two names - Fuso Maru and Ryujo Maru - as a deception - and her movements are STILL classified Secret in Japan!

The more I think about this - the more I understand what they did. They wanted only a few ships with the communications and staff assets - and only a few commands really good at amphib ops. Since IJA was short of both ships and Army staffs intimate with IJN - I am not sure this is such a bad thing. We do want those that were good to show up as good - and not the rest. And these ships were the MOST valuable of ships in the Army - which like our Army operated more ships than the Navy. They were protected in every sense. This may make players do that.

Now - we could offer the staffs as normal in some scenario - for example Russian passive scenarios. Players who like the way WITP did it should prefer those anyway. In that case the ships can appear in LSD form.

[el cid again]

OK - I decided the Japanese could convert the M class ships - M for Military - ships which were suitable for a variety of tasks - but were dedicated amphibs as built. They converted one to a CVE, planned to convert others to coal fired AKs,
and generally used them as landing craft carriers - sort of - not crude ones like UK had but more like an LSD - they could carry them loaded and discharge them at full speed (which not even our LSDs can do today). Anyway - in EOS - you can convert up to 8 more AGC from these ships - if you are willing to give up an LSD to do so - and if you need one after the early war is over.

In BBO, RPO and PPO you can convert this class to the coal fired AK instead.

In CVO and RAO you can convert this class to CVE form instead.

[el cid again]

I found one more case - and it leads us to two ships in EOS.

You have heard of Kongo Maru - she served as an AMC. Turns out she had a sister - Koan Maru - a ship as mysterious as the Shinshu Maru - she was requisitioned as a "Hospital Ship" - something the IJN was big on. Not that they evacuated troops in hospital ships very much - they also didn't move troops in APs - which they had in numbers - but usually in AKs!! They believed that a "hospital ship" would not be as likely to be sunk! As many as 75% of those so classified were not hospital ships at all - and the rest would also carry military cargo. Anyway - this case is just an extension of that principle to an AGC - instead of two names - they give her a false cover mission. But unlike other ships of that sort, she was armed - with guns under false deckhouses! So anyway - that is one. In EOS - we also convert her sister Kongo Maru to the same function.

Thus you start with 3 AGC in Russian Active scenarios - (Akitsu, Shinshu and Koan) - 4 in EOS (add Kongo). You also get the Nigitsu as a reinforcement during the war. And in EOS you can convert any of the Type M military hulls - mid to late war dates. Note, however, the need for an AGC was removed from CVO and RPO - and in those scenarios you will not have any AGC - Koan then reverting to an AP..

OK - that is that. I am done. Issuing 6.655 (and 5.655).

[TulliusDetritus]

El Cid Again, this "code" makes sense with the allies, indeed.

1) the Americans get -- in the game -- like two dozens of these ships (if I remember correctly).

2) when they get them they are quite strong.

1) & 2) can't be applied to Japan though. That's the problem, in my opinion. Moving an unit from A to B (friendly bases) is one thing. Assaulting one enemy hex is a different story.

[el cid again]

I am very pleased with the way this has developed - and embarassed I didn't think of it long ago. At last I have a way to represent the difference between Japanese units that were joint and not - and finally I have a way to make wise players value these priceless ships which is wholly absent rating them as AP, AK or even LSD or CVE.

That said, I noted your objections, and so reverted to the stock/CHS system in CVO and RPO - scenarios entirely extant for those who like stock/CHS ideas about active Russians (i.e. they shouldn't be). I won't play them anyway - so it does not bother me to have this bit of unrealism in them. Japan INVENTED the AGC - the specialized landing ship - and the specialized landing craft as such. We COPIED the idea because it worked - and if you look at Allied Landing Craft - a book reproducing two official US manuals - you will see how primitive our early war ideas were. But (like the modern PLA - and in particular re things naval) Japanese forces were fragile and specialized capabilities were thin - severely subject to attrition because they were so few in number. You may not like that - but that was the system - and so good simulation should present it that way.

My final project is reviewing Celebes - and major impacts this has had. At least we can mitigate the problems which bother Dili so much.

[TulliusDetritus]

El Cid Again, to be honest, this does not bother me either [:)] The game/scenario I am playing has been "modified" -- as I said two or three posts ago. All the Japanese HQ's are of "type = 1" so the transport ships can load them.

From what I read in the Hyperwar site, the AGP ships idea was basically created, elaborated (on the allied side) by American Rear Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner, after his "experience" in the Guadalcanal Campaign. And were first used (if my memory does nor fail) in the Central Pacific Offensive on november 1943.

But again, they have a very concrete role: supporting forces which are assaulting an enemy base.

I was thinking about the worst possible scenario. Japanese few AGP's are sunk -- let's not forget Americans have a lot of submarines and that the dud torpedoes will not last forever = those HQ's won't leave an island if they happened to be there. That's irrational to me, I can't help it, sorry.