Comprehensive Wishlist

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rhinobones
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by rhinobones »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Tobruk in 1942 . . . Sedan . . . Seelowe . . . 1940 . . . panzers

Agree that in the 1940's AA weapons were generally deployed to defend behind the forward line, however, this discussion is hung up on WWII and neglects the following 70 years of conflict. Nam, Afghanistan, Sinai, Iran/Iraq . . . I can think of plenty of scenarios where deploying dual use AAA in the forward echelon would be typical. Don't think that a global fix is the answer, rather the TOAW engine needs to have a selector available so that different eras can be modeled. This would help with the AA/AT conundrum and a host of other problems.

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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Because where the bombers are, and where the ground units are, aren't necessarily the same place -- nor would the ideal deployment for engaging ground targets necessarily be the ideal deployment for engaging bombers.

It certainly is if the target of the bombers are the friendly ground units! That's by far the most common case. If the friendly forces are either attacking or defending, enemy bomber support is going to be directed at those friendly forces. They will then defend themselves with their AAA assets, including, but not limited to, Flak equipment.
I already cited the fall of Tobruk in 1942, where there was plenty of Allied Flak -- just not where the ground combat was.

For doctrinal reasons. That's a different issue.
Let's look at Sedan. On May 14, the French were mounting various attacks from what would be the next hex at most scales, while the Germans were attacking out of that hex to expand their bridgehead. At the same time, an immense concentration of German flak was protecting the bridges themselves against furious Allied air attacks, allowing reinforcements to move into 'the hex' and win the ground battle.

Those flak guns didn't engage the counterattacking French units. They guarded the bridge. Had they been used to engage the counterattacking French units, they couldn't have protected the bridge.

Let's see if I've got this straight: The French player sets up a ground attack against German forces in a bridge hex. He then assigns all his air assets to ... bomb the bridge!

Yeah, that happens a lot.

In reality, what happens is that the bombers support the ground attack when that takes place, and attack the bridge in a separate round. Or, and this might be the most common situation, the bridge is in another hex further in the rear - which solves all issues.

Regardless, Flak doesn't have to be located directly on the bridge to be effective. The bombers have to fly to the target. They can get flakked on the way to or back. If the hex is under ground attack, then, by definition, it is the front boundary - that would have to be crossed by the bombers at some point. City defenses usually put the Flak in a ring around the city, rather than in it, for good reason.

So the flak can be at the front line (which may be anywhere in the hex) and still fire at the bombers attacking the bridge (which also may be anywhere in the hex) in most cases. Those rare cases where the frontlines and the bridge are too far apart within the hex to do so are addressed by the random chance of the combat resolution.
I think you'll find that over and over, a weapon can only do one thing at a time. Since attackers have a nasty habit of doing several things all at the same time, more often than not, the weapon can only be utilized against one of the incoming forms of attack.

But it's not happening "at one time" at the operational scale. As Karri said, you're thinking of a first-person-shooter. A ground assault in TOAW may represent hours of combat, while an air attack passes over in seconds. The bombers can be fired at for that interval without material diminishment of the ground attack/defense. In fact, enemy ground activity would usually halt while their bombers were in action lest they risk friendly-fire losses.

I don't think it's dual use that you are really objecting to. It's certain uses in particular.
In Seelowe, the British have various 40 mm AA batteries. Given British doctrine at the time, and given German air superiority, the reasonable assumption is that those AA guns would have spent most of their time trying to fend off the Luftwaffe. It would have been rare for them to help support an attack, and it also would have been unusual for them to be pressed into service as AT guns.

So given OPART's limitations, I felt -- and still feel -- the most appropriate way to handle them was to give them zero AP and AT strength.

They can only be used as AA guns. That's what they mostly would have done. That may not be a perfect reflection of what would have happened, but it's a damned sight closer than letting them routinely do precisely what they rarely did in 1940 -- support ground attacks and beat back panzers. To treat them otherwise is to give the British a weapon they would not in fact have had.

This, I think, is your real objection, and I don't have any problem with this. In fact, I'd like more help from TOAW with this. I continue to believe that rear-area stuff needs to be modeled in some fashion for most situations. Modeling just the frontline stuff impacts the choices players make in unrealistic ways.
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Panama
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

Does early British military doctrine really serve as a good example. Lack of flexibility was their undoing.

George: "Robert, there's one of those pesky PkwII coming up the road"
Robert: "Bah, I can't find my ammo for the AT rifle George"
George: "I thought I saw it right on the other side of the Howitzer"
Robert, after rummaging around the 25lbr Howitzer ammo: "No, I can't find it. Just shoot at it with the Enfield"
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by fogger »

How to defend a bridge 101. [:D]

For this exercise the AA troop has 4 AA guns and each gun has a range of 2,000 meters. Place Gun 1 - 1,000 meters north of bridge. Gun 2 - 1,000 meters east of bridge Gun 3 - 1,000 meters west of bridge & Gun 4 - 1,000 metres south of bridge. Enemy plane attacks from north. Gun 1 open fires at max range 2,000 meters (which is 3,000 meters from bridge). At approx 1,500 metres from bridge Guns 2&3 open fire. At 1,000 metres from bridge plane flies over gun 1 and Gun 4 open fires. Over bridge all 4 guns are firing at the plane. If more than one enemy plane then guns 1, 2 & 3 changes target. Gun4 will continue to engage plane until it flies over it and then will change to engage second plane.

The enemy plane is under fire 3,000 meters from the bridge and flying into more AAA as it approaches the bridge. Remember that as long as the bombs miss the bridge you have achieved your task in defending the bridge. Bring down an enemy plane is a bonus.

Also as the AA guns are spread over the area it is possible to take part in the area defence plan in an AT role. How ever if the enemy is getting that close to the bridge I would be thinking of making sure the demo charges are in working order and be packing up my gear.

Anyway that is how I used to plan my defence when I was an army officer.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Panama

Does early British military doctrine really serve as a good example. Lack of flexibility was their undoing.

George: "Robert, there's one of those pesky PkwII coming up the road"
Robert: "Bah, I can't find my ammo for the AT rifle George"
George: "I thought I saw it right on the other side of the Howitzer"
Robert, after rummaging around the 25lbr Howitzer ammo: "No, I can't find it. Just shoot at it with the Enfield"

It's a little more complicated than that. Flak guns really don't make ideal AT weapons due to their high profile. The Germans were able to get away with it in the desert due to Commonwealth attacks being so ill-coordinated. The tanks would usually go in before the artillery bombardment.

Later in the war, the Germans had to devise a proper 88mm AT gun, because the Allies had wised up a bit.

So, it's debatable which was more damning - lack of Commonwealth use of AAA in an AT role, or that they let the Germans get away with it for so long.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

If there is going to be a line up for adversaries that 'let' the Axis use the 88 Flak as an AT weapon then the UK will have lots of company. Many nations used whatever resources were at hand to accomplish a task. The Germans just happened to be more at ease with doing so than other nations. They were masters of improvisation. (i think i just sprained my brain)

In any event, I don't see how TOAW can make decisions about what a weapon is being used for at a particular point in time. Each combat round would have to be divided up into hours and each units actions during any particular hour or minute or whatever would have to be decided. It would take a super computer to get it all done in a reasonable amount of time. Is that AA machine gun on that tank being used for anti personel right now in this hour or minute or is it shooting at that airplane flying off to the side 100 meters away? I think if that much detail is desired then go play a tactical game.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It's a little more complicated than that. Flak guns really don't make ideal AT weapons due to their high profile. The Germans were able to get away with it in the desert due to Commonwealth attacks being so ill-coordinated. The tanks would usually go in before the artillery bombardment.

Later in the war, the Germans had to devise a proper 88mm AT gun, because the Allies had wised up a bit.

So, it's debatable which was more damning - lack of Commonwealth use of AAA in an AT role, or that they let the Germans get away with it for so long.

S'an interesting point- however 88mm FlaK guns continued to be effective in more close environments. After 1942, we weren't fighting in the Western desert.

Anyway, I recall discussing why the 3.7" AA gun didn't see the same range of uses as the 88: the calibres are about the same and on the face of it they're similar weapons. Turns out that the 3.7" gun weighs about twice as much as the 88. In design, it was considered largely as a static weapon, so the priority would have been stability over mobility.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Panama

If there is going to be a line up for adversaries that 'let' the Axis use the 88 Flak as an AT weapon then the UK will have lots of company.

Mmm. The British often get a bad rap, but no-one who went up against the Germans 1939-42 came out of it looking very good. In fact we're the only ones who managed to avoid losing entire armies at a stroke.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

S'an interesting point- however 88mm FlaK guns continued to be effective in more close environments. After 1942, we weren't fighting in the Western desert.

Nevertheless, the Germans were compelled to create a true 88mm AT gun. Why do that if you don't have to? The AT gun can't be used in a Flak role. That's unlike the DP gun, which can do both.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: fogger

How to defend a bridge 101. [:D]

For this exercise the AA troop has 4 AA guns and each gun has a range of 2,000 meters. Place Gun 1 - 1,000 meters north of bridge. Gun 2 - 1,000 meters east of bridge Gun 3 - 1,000 meters west of bridge & Gun 4 - 1,000 metres south of bridge. Enemy plane attacks from north. Gun 1 open fires at max range 2,000 meters (which is 3,000 meters from bridge). At approx 1,500 metres from bridge Guns 2&3 open fire. At 1,000 metres from bridge plane flies over gun 1 and Gun 4 open fires. Over bridge all 4 guns are firing at the plane. If more than one enemy plane then guns 1, 2 & 3 changes target. Gun4 will continue to engage plane until it flies over it and then will change to engage second plane.

The enemy plane is under fire 3,000 meters from the bridge and flying into more AAA as it approaches the bridge. Remember that as long as the bombs miss the bridge you have achieved your task in defending the bridge. Bring down an enemy plane is a bonus.

Also as the AA guns are spread over the area it is possible to take part in the area defence plan in an AT role. How ever if the enemy is getting that close to the bridge I would be thinking of making sure the demo charges are in working order and be packing up my gear.

Anyway that is how I used to plan my defence when I was an army officer.

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say you're talking about low-altitude AAA - machineguns and such. Here are the figures on the 88mm Flak-41:

Ceiling: 49,200 feet = 14.9Km.
Horizontal Range: 21,580 yards = 19.6 Km.

No plane entering a 10km hex will be out of range of that gun, regardless of where in the hex it may be.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: golden delicious

S'an interesting point- however 88mm FlaK guns continued to be effective in more close environments. After 1942, we weren't fighting in the Western desert.

Nevertheless, the Germans were compelled to create a true 88mm AT gun. Why do that if you don't have to? The AT gun can't be used in a Flak role. That's unlike the DP gun, which can do both.

The 8.8cm Flak 18/36/37/ was heavy, requiring a heavy tractor, almost impossible to hide, it's about 8 feet tall at the horizontal off the carriages. It had an advantage over it's Allied counterparts in that it could be fired while mounted on it's mobile chasis simply by being able to drop the frame while still mounted. It was first used in an anti tank role in the Spanish Civil War. The fact is all 8.8 cm FlaKs were capable of the dual role. It could penetrate over 150mm of armor at more than 2 kilometer. Its standard anti-aircraft platform allowed gunners to depress the muzzle below horizontal, unlike most other anti-aircraft guns.

So, it was a very nice dual role gun unlike most other AAA.

The Pak43 was developed because it was lighter, closer to the ground, easier to hide, harder to hit and afforded more protection for it's gunners. It was, no doubt, easier to produce too. Some were mounted on a cruciform mount, much like the flak version only much lower to the ground. To speed up production some were put on the typical howitzer type two wheel split rail carriage.

What compelled them was the numbers game they became mired in with the Soviets.

Forgot to mention:

The Soviets used their 85mm AAA gun as an emergency AT gun in 1941 (stating the obvious since they would have used anything that could shoot to shoot at whatever was there). So since it was already in mass production this was the natural anti Tiger gun. To get it to the battlefield quickly the AAA guns were put into AT battalions with their heavy antiaircraft mountings. Not saying they were used in dual roles anymore than the 88 Flak but they could be used as AAA since they were in essence AAA pressed into AT service to counter the Tiger.

Again, the numbers game was the innovation catylist.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Nevertheless, the Germans were compelled to create a true 88mm AT gun. Why do that if you don't have to? The AT gun can't be used in a Flak role. That's unlike the DP gun, which can do both.

The AT gun is obviously optimised for the AT role. That's not to say the dual purpose gun could no longer be used as an AT weapon- it was just less well suited to the role because of design compromises.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by madner »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Nevertheless, the Germans were compelled to create a true 88mm AT gun. Why do that if you don't have to? The AT gun can't be used in a Flak role. That's unlike the DP gun, which can do both.

The AT gun is obviously optimised for the AT role. That's not to say the dual purpose gun could no longer be used as an AT weapon- it was just less well suited to the role because of design compromises.

It is overlooked that the FlaK guns were manned by Luftwaffe personal, and the 8.8 PaK was a rejected proposal picked up by the Wehrmacht. So once again it might have been a simple case of inter service rivalry, rather then any practical consideration.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Panama

The 8.8cm Flak 18/36/37/ was heavy, requiring a heavy tractor, almost impossible to hide, it's about 8 feet tall at the horizontal off the carriages. ...

The Pak43 was developed because it was lighter, closer to the ground, easier to hide, harder to hit and afforded more protection for it's gunners.

I think that's pretty much my point. The Flak-41 was bigger and heavier still.

Obviously, the latter advantages are essential against a competent attacker. AT positions that are spotted can be picked off by artillery before the attack. And the Axis opponents got more competent as the war neared its climax.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by madner »

The Pak 43 was more powerful, which started to matter with the IS tanks.

While it is true that the Flak 8.8 was a bit heavier and higher, it wasn't such a big difference. The real question is, how many tactical bombers were shot down by 8.8, it appears to be high altitude AA defense.

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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: madner

The real question is, how many tactical bombers were shot down by 8.8, it appears to be high altitude AA defense.

Well yes. No-one used medium calibre guns for low altitude air defence, it just wouldn't make any sense. You get much more mileage from small calibre, rapid fire weapons.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: madner

The real question is, how many tactical bombers were shot down by 8.8, it appears to be high altitude AA defense.

Well yes. No-one used medium calibre guns for low altitude air defence, it just wouldn't make any sense. You get much more mileage from small calibre, rapid fire weapons.

I fail to see why. The low-altitude bombers can't teleport themselves to the target. They have to approach from great distance. If a defense has 88s, they will start taking flak from much greater distances than from one that just has MMGs.

Naval vessels are protected by DP guns even bigger than the 88s, and they are almost exclusively targeted by low-altitude aircraft.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: madner

The Pak 43 was more powerful, which started to matter with the IS tanks.

More powerful than the Flak-37, but I don't believe it was more powerful than the Flak-41, which had the same tube length.

Regardless, obviously, you could make a Flak gun with the same power as the AT gun. The critical need was for an AT carriage, and the advantages that that brought.

Even the cost argument doesn't wash, since, if cost is the driving factor, a gun that can do two things is the bargain over the gun that can only do one. The AT gun will need flak support to protect it from air attack.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by madner »

But the Flak-41 had his own sets of problem, after Tunisia it wasn't used outside of Germany.
From the around 10 000 8.8 Germany produced only about 500 were Flak 41, and the Luftwaffe ordered them to address the perceived ceiling deficit of the L/56 gun. So they spent they time defending the cities.
For the Wehrmacht that meant those guns could as well not exist.






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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I fail to see why. The low-altitude bombers can't teleport themselves to the target. They have to approach from great distance. If a defense has 88s, they will start taking flak from much greater distances than from one that just has MMGs.

Uh-huh. The Bofors 40mm AA gun had a range of over 7km.

Anyway, heavy AA is more useful against torpedo bombers which have to fly in a more predictable path, so the gunners can lay fire ahead of approaching aircraft. After 1940, no bombing mission over land would fly straight and level at low altitude against a protected target.
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