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jumper
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by jumper »

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

With the BBs gone and only 100 army bombers, there will be a long siege. 285k supplies is the same as 4 days ago - great. I can't imagine how he could reduce that to zero. Karachi will probably become an Indian Leningrad and hold until you can break the siege from outside. The reconquest of India should become possible in 1944, maybe even late '43,

It is not that easy. With a few divisions in Karachi, all allied units there are blocked and can not move. They can only attack and face urban bonus and some forts.. GH will be forced to organize landing somewhere else with all risks such operation brings.
As GH posted, this is the worts what could happen. All forces in Karachi are blocked for a very long time and large portion of Japanese army gained oprational freedom with no costs..
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: jumper

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

With the BBs gone and only 100 army bombers, there will be a long siege. 285k supplies is the same as 4 days ago - great. I can't imagine how he could reduce that to zero. Karachi will probably become an Indian Leningrad and hold until you can break the siege from outside. The reconquest of India should become possible in 1944, maybe even late '43,

It is not that easy. With a few divisions in Karachi, all allied units there are blocked and can not move. They can only attack and face urban bonus and some forts.. GH will be forced to organize landing somewhere else with all risks such operation brings.
As GH posted, this is the worts what could happen. All forces in Karachi are blocked for a very long time and large portion of Japanese army gained oprational freedom with no costs..

This is true.
But also consider this:
There are 5 divisions at Karachi at the moment (see screenshot below). He will need at least some more 3 divisions to garrison the major indian ports (Bombay, Cylon, Madras etc), in order to prevent any counterlanding.
With Karachi alive, he will need to pound it constantly every day. Thus forcing a good numbers of planes to remain stuck in India.
If Karachi fell he would need far less units (in terms of ships,ground units and planes) in order to defend India.
With Karachi alive the threat of seeing springing 100 spitfires and 200 4Es in Karachi anytime in the future would force him to use at least 300 bombers every single day...and keep also a good number of fighters...

There are pros and contras...however a lot of scenarios remain open, and that's damned good for me[:'(]

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Bogo Mil
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Bogo Mil »

Of couse, the reconquest has to start somewhere else. I would not try to break out of Karachi. The main objective would be to cut of the siege force from Eastern India (the area around Calcutta produces huge amounts of supply).

The British reinforcements from Aden could land south of Bombay, ANZAC and maybe some Americans could land near Calcutta. Then the Japs have a huge problem - suddenly they there are 2 or even 3 fronts in India. Today this is completely impossible, we have to be patient. But once we have some divisions around and our CVs are mighty enough to protect the landing(s) against LBA, it will not be too difficult. It might even be easy. Trollelite doesn't have the troops to siege Karachi, defend in the Pacific and keep strong garrisions all over the Indian coast, too. I presume he doesn't have anything but base forces there.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

The chinese shriking new perimeter....As you can see i hope, redeploying those 2000 AVs saved from the Nanchang pocket, to stabilize the front of Whocow and the whole souther flank...

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Mistmatz
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Mistmatz »

I think the indian theater will not see much activity for the next year.

US carrier support is probably permanently required in the pacific to secure the gains there. The brits alone on the other hand are to weak for quite some time to establish a bridgehead on their own due to lacking air support.
I agree that landing elsewhere in India will probably be better than reinforcing Karachi and breaking out there. If you come from the flank he'll have to withdraw as fast as the allies did in order to save their troops. But as I said I dont see any such operation feasible for quite some time.
If you gained knowledge through the forum, why not putting it into the AE wiki?

http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_th ... ition_Wiki

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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

Of couse, the reconquest has to start somewhere else. I would not try to break out of Karachi. The main objective would be to cut of the siege force from Eastern India (the area around Calcutta produces huge amounts of supply).

The British reinforcements from Aden could land south of Bombay, ANZAC and maybe some Americans could land near Calcutta. Then the Japs have a huge problem - suddenly they there are 2 or even 3 fronts in India. Today this is completely impossible, we have to be patient. But once we have some divisions around and our CVs are mighty enough to protect the landing(s) against LBA, it will not be too difficult. It might even be easy. Trollelite doesn't have the troops to siege Karachi, defend in the Pacific and keep strong garrisions all over the Indian coast, too. I presume he doesn't have anything but base forces there.

Yes, you're right.
Mangalore would be a good place to land the brits imho...however it's a long way, so for the moment we just have to focus on the survivability of Karachi.
Untill the re-conquest become a real possibility (late 43 at least), we have to think on how to give him some headhaces here.
The british CVs will be very usefull......we'll see what we can do....maybe waiting for one of those very frequent heavy raining days....[;)]
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

I think the indian theater will not see much activity for the next year.

US carrier support is probably permanently required in the pacific to secure the gains there. The brits alone on the other hand are to weak for quite some time to establish a bridgehead on their own due to lacking air support.
I agree that landing elsewhere in India will probably be better than reinforcing Karachi and breaking out there. If you come from the flank he'll have to withdraw as fast as the allies did in order to save their troops. But as I said I dont see any such operation feasible for quite some time.

One year at least...for sure.
Probably never if China breaks down...so now let's think on how to save the yellow guys[;)]
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hades1001
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by hades1001 »

5,000 supplies a day would not be a good news[:-]
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Bogo Mil
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Bogo Mil »

In India, all we can do now is holding Karachi. I agree with that completely. There can not be a reconquest before late '43, impatience would be deadly.

In Karachi you did turn of replacements for all units, didn't you? This saves suppllies and is the way to go to delay the fall of a doomed place like Manila.
But I'm not sure if this is the best thing to do for such a long siege - we are talking about 500 days! If you don't replace any losses, the strength of the troops will slowly fade away. In the long run, the place might fall because of that attrition, not because of starvation. I would consider to turn on replacements again for the most important combat troops - e.g. all inf units with morale > 50 - at least as long as the supply level is above 100k.

I don't think China is so important. Of course, you should not lose Chungking, but losing some more terrain will not be critical, I think.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)
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mussey
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The End of the British Empire?

Post by mussey »

Dear Gen. Hoepner,

Due to serious emergencies in other operational theaters, I am recalling you back to London for further consultations. It is imperative that you retain and pull back ALL CommonWealth forces under your command to Aden and Mogadishu for consolidation and immediate counterattack against German/Italian forces recently stationed in Cairo/Pt. Suez.

My latest round of talks with Mr. Roosevelt has left us with little options available to Allied Forces in the Middle East. The loss of the Suez Canal, and Arab revolts in Syria and Iran has forced CW units out of the region. Intelligence reports out of Moscow indicate possible German spring offenses in the southern/Ukraine operation theater with possible objectives of Rostov-Baku-Tehran.

It is imperitve that you realize the ultimate predictiment that the Empire is now facing with the loss of SE Asia/India, Suez, and Oil facilities in Arabia. Liberal Members of Parliment are preparing terms with Labor for possible vote of confidence in this government. Some are calling for the removal of American forces from England and the CW in preparation of talks with Mr. Hitler.

With urgency and respectful regards,

Minister Churchill[:-]



[The gig is up for CW in the Middle East? Can Rommel be stopped at Jerusalem? This is the nightmare that Britain feared].[:(]


Col. Mussbu
Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

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Jim D Burns
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
some units are retreating back towards Kuikiang...[&:] What the h*** that means?!?!?!?!?!?

He’s out of supply and probably didn’t notice it until he had already crossed the river, if you have enough forces try a deliberate attack and see if you can spank him before he pulls more supplies into his units and comes back.

As to turning on replacements in Karachi, don’t do it. Your units have a large supply draw and as they take casualties this supply draw will decrease allowing them to last longer. As you saw in my Singapore siege, once your units cross a certain experience threshold, they will fight far better.

My guys were at about 25% of their TO&E destroyed and what remained had about 50% disabled and they became unbeatable for Japan even when in such bad shape. It was lack of supplies, not lack of squads that allowed Singapore to fall. The same will be the case for Karachi.

Do everything you can to decrease your supply usage at the expense of everything else. Except for a few AAA units, allow one or two of those units to re-grow once his naval bombardments slacken, so you keep the cost of his air attacks high.

Jim
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/22/42


A good day for the British Empire today.
Supplies in Karachi, since yesterday, have augmented to 282,000!!!..more than 2000 supplies more!! Don't ask me how and why[&:][:D]...despite the usual heavy air bombing!
I won't allow replaments for the moment in Karachi...nor in Manila(which is still at 13,400 supplies)...maybe some AA units or some arty...but not now...Jim's right...have to wait untill he moves back his CAs....
However he lost 11 units due to flak only today over Karachi...quite a lot considering that my AA is completely destroyed at the moment!


At Nanchang he sent in another eng unit...alone...easily pushed back[;)]
At Yenktu...we repulsed, bloody, a japanese shock attack...he's reinforcing the northern sector...very good[8D]
Doing that he's moving some more of his units from Changsha area...seems that the threat in the North has forced him to divert some of his units from the south!
Now we spotted 47 units at Canton...wow!!!...from Hengchow we're sending south more units...let's see what we can do there!
Cannot risk an attack at Changsha...he still has 21 units there...simply too many[:(]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Changsha , at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 43
G3M Nell x 26
G4M1 Betty x 52
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 36
Ki-21-II Sally x 29
Ki-49 Helen x 116
Ki-15 Babs x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
145 casualties reported

Airbase hits 37
Airbase supply hits 13
Runway hits 149

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 79
Ki-48-I Lily x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Runway hits 65

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80

Today we targeted the base force![8D]

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 12
B-17E Fortress x 63
F-4 Lightning x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
H6K4 Mavis: 1 destroyed


Japanese ground losses:
87 casualties reported

Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 119
Ki-46-II Dinah x 2

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged

Allied aircraft losses


Allied ground losses:
149 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 79

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 55
G4M1 Betty x 129

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 3 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied aircraft losses


Allied ground losses:
261 casualties reported
Guns lost 10

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 136



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Yangku

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 25490 troops, 120 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 621

Defending force 29766 troops, 137 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 820

Japanese max assault: 1274 - adjusted assault: 389

Allied max defense: 826 - adjusted defense: 417

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]


Japanese ground losses:
2562 casualties reported[:D][:D]
Guns lost 20

Allied ground losses:
189 casualties reported[;)]
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 2532 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 283

Defending force 35338 troops, 157 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1052

Japanese max assault: 22 - adjusted assault: 4

Allied max defense: 733 - adjusted defense: 541

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)


Japanese ground losses:
130 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
94 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

This attack was really a suicide!!![&:]


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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Karachi status...incredible[&:]

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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: The End of the British Empire?

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: mussey

Dear Gen. Hoepner,

Due to serious emergencies in other operational theaters, I am recalling you back to London for further consultations. It is imperative that you retain and pull back ALL CommonWealth forces under your command to Aden and Mogadishu for consolidation and immediate counterattack against German/Italian forces recently stationed in Cairo/Pt. Suez.

My latest round of talks with Mr. Roosevelt has left us with little options available to Allied Forces in the Middle East. The loss of the Suez Canal, and Arab revolts in Syria and Iran has forced CW units out of the region. Intelligence reports out of Moscow indicate possible German spring offenses in the southern/Ukraine operation theater with possible objectives of Rostov-Baku-Tehran.

It is imperitve that you realize the ultimate predictiment that the Empire is now facing with the loss of SE Asia/India, Suez, and Oil facilities in Arabia. Liberal Members of Parliment are preparing terms with Labor for possible vote of confidence in this government. Some are calling for the removal of American forces from England and the CW in preparation of talks with Mr. Hitler.

With urgency and respectful regards,

Minister Churchill[:-]



[The gig is up for CW in the Middle East? Can Rommel be stopped at Jerusalem? This is the nightmare that Britain feared].[:(]


Col. Mussbu

Dear Mr. Churchill....sorry, here in the Middle East, due to the serious communication problems we're experiencing, we cannot recieve your messages...
However, in the spirit of our great Union Jack, we can assure you that we will fight till the last man for Karachi.

Respectfully,

Gen.Hoepner
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Elladan
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Elladan »

Some of your units in Karachi probably dumped excess supply back to the base. 
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Some of your units in Karachi probably dumped excess supply back to the base. 

Yes...seems plausible.
However i'm pleased to see that a month of constat bombing didn't reduce much my supplies stocks---
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil



I don't think China is so important. Of course, you should not lose Chungking, but losing some more terrain will not be critical, I think.

Bogo, if the actual perimeter breaks down...everything can happen...we do not have any serious reserve army anywhere in the inland...If we lose our "6th army" in the chinese stalingrad (changsha)...the whole front could collapse... we gotta hold!!!!
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Elladan
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RE: Ambush over Changsha

Post by Elladan »

However i'm pleased to see that a month of constat bombing didn't reduce much my supplies stocks---
That's impressive indeed, especially considering huge amount of supply you have there. According to the popular theory each supply hit should destroy around 3000 points in your case, fortunately for you the code must be more complicated than that [;)]
..If we lose our "6th army" in the chinese stalingrad (changsha)...the whole front could collapse...
That's true but don't forget you will get all your units back in Chungking at 1/3 TOE in just a month (if they are destroyed that is).
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mussey
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RE: The End of the British Empire?

Post by mussey »

Gen. H., thanks for being a good sport [:)]! Your game is incredible, and shows folks with limited playing experience such as myself, the tremendous opportunities that witp has. Your opponent has thrust the Japanese cababilities to the limit and has reached a strategic threshold most players never face - the demise of British control in the SE Asia Theater of Operations. I achieved this only once in the older PacWar. The free world is praying that you hold on to Karachi, and our thoughts are with you.

Now a few practical thoughts for the Admiral's Edition:
- are there garrison rules that cover Jap. occupation of conquered cities/urban areas? It would seem that at least some units would need to cover major urban areas of Madras, Decca, Calcutta, etc.
- we may need a larger map (off-map) of the Mid-East
- is there a need for politcal rules in India? I'm curious how a Jap. penetration/occupation of India would influence British control there. ie would they support Jap. 'liberation', or would it be viewed as fascist occupation to be fought (guerrila war) to the bitter end? Would it instigate Indian-Pakistani strife/civil war?
- are there any random events that tie in German/Italian moves in the Mediteranian/Mid East/ Egypt? What about the German spring offensive in southern Russia (Baku, Stalingrad, Iran)? I guess it would seem easy to extend an already extended battle space that occupies more than half the globe, but playability?
- there are only 2 ultimate strategic outcomes the would allow the Axis to win this war; 1) Ger & Jap control of Russia, or 2) the British loss of the Suez, Mid East, & India (their widest & weakest front). Either of these 2 events allows Axis to focus forces on surviving areas. With the fall of India, Jap. can now dramatically concentrate on China, Aus., and the outer defense perimeter (Pacific).

In any event, a most sincere kudos to you both for supplying a most facinating operational & theorieretical (sp) glimpse into a great match. Better than "I Love Lucy". I have learned alot![:D]

Col. Mussbu

PS - I re-enlisted and am reporting myself on the first flight to Karachi. BYOB?
Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: The End of the British Empire?

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/23/42


My minelaying subs are starting their job at Karachi, leaving some eggs there...SS KXIV got unlucky cause his torp didn't detonate..[:@]
Our CVs got closer to the entrance of the Aden Channell and spotted several hunting enemy subs and a single AK...clearly there as a bait...well, i like the idea that he knows i'm putting my nose in...he will be forced to keep his eyes wide open!
Karachi's supply status is back at 280,000 after today bombings...
Manila remains at 13,000
In China he sent another unit to shock attack at Nanchang...another useless defeat for him...[&:]
We managed to put a chinese corp in the woods where its comm lines passes through between Changsha and Kiukiang...he will be forced to push us out..one more day gained for Changsha (cause he cannot attack if his supply line is interrupted).





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Karachi at 21,3[:@][:@][:@][:@][:@]

Japanese Ships
DD Nenohi
DD Samidare
DD Harusame
DD Murasame

Allied Ships
SS KXIV, hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Furutaka
CA Aoba
CA Takao
CA Tone


Allied ground losses:
1951 casualties reported
Guns lost 42

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 19
Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 107
Ki-46-II Dinah x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 3 damaged


Allied ground losses:
15 casualties reported

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80

Another tour over Ponape...today at Eniwetok arrived an air HQ...very good![;)]..we're almost ready!

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 13
B-17E Fortress x 58
F-4 Lightning x 4


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
29 casualties reported

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 12,4

This was his bait near the Aden Channell...


Allied aircraft
Sea Hurricane x 2
Fulmar x 4
Albacore x 18


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AK Shingetsu Maru, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Changsha
so he started to bombard Changsha....[8|]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 3022 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 6530

Defending force 183609 troops, 829 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4528



Allied ground losses:
190 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 7968 troops, 24 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 486

Defending force 45469 troops, 201 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1378

Japanese max assault: 234 - adjusted assault: 1

Allied max defense: 1039 - adjusted defense: 346

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)


Japanese ground losses:
1226 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Allied ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


Another Bde sacrificed for nothing[&:]


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