::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert
What may hurt him is not the distance travelled but the supply and resources consumed to do it. He's flying a lot of missions, bombarding and attacking a lot there.

+1: It is so easy to use too much air power in China, because pretty soon it is the only place Japan can use bombers without suffering hideous losses to flak and growing American/British air power.

PDU Off: Sonia isn't bad in China, Burma as a very short range recon plane. I like it there for that, as it frees up the longer legged recon to watch other areas.

I think where PDU off might hurt Japan the most is in night fighters although this is purely a swag...

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert
What may hurt him is not the distance travelled but the supply and resources consumed to do it. He's flying a lot of missions, bombarding and attacking a lot there.

+1: It is so easy to use too much air power in China, because pretty soon it is the only place Japan can use bombers without suffering hideous losses to flak and growing American/British air power.

PDU Off: Sonia isn't bad in China, Burma as a very short range recon plane. I like it there for that, as it frees up the longer legged recon to watch other areas.

I think where PDU off might hurt Japan the most is in night fighters although this is purely a swag...

The Sonia also uses much less supply to do essentially what a 2E does in China; get lots of hits on defenseless troops and bomb airbases to kill supply. I use the Lysander in a similar way now, and the recon is great with them, if short legged.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert
My usage will be less than was common for the Allied bombers in our game, and I'll be trying to use the bombers more in smaller packages spread over many targets, not usually multiple days in a row for the same target. There will be exceptions of course, but that is the loose plan. Less usage, hitting around the big bases and not taking them on unless it's absolutely necessary. I tried it once already to see mainly just how bad it would be, and it was pretty bad.

I am curious how this strategy will work for you. I am taking notes!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert
My usage will be less than was common for the Allied bombers in our game, and I'll be trying to use the bombers more in smaller packages spread over many targets, not usually multiple days in a row for the same target. There will be exceptions of course, but that is the loose plan. Less usage, hitting around the big bases and not taking them on unless it's absolutely necessary. I tried it once already to see mainly just how bad it would be, and it was pretty bad.

I am curious how this strategy will work for you. I am taking notes!

Me too!

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Oct 1 - 2, 1942[/font]

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[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SUBS: [/font] The subs around Rekata Bay have been doing their job, trying to hit the DDs that have been the only traffic coming in to bombard.

Around Sabang there is no sign of Kaga or any of the KB. Vanished. I sent one sub to Siberoet with it's port 1, but no sign of anything there. Maybe he turned SE toward Soerabaja, or maybe she makes a decent speed still and he's beaten me into the straits. The US fleet subs are almost as fast as Kaga to begin with, so I doubt that. I guess she could have beaten us to Sabang though, and disbanded there. That would have been my choice, being on his side. He can then bring in LBA and take his time getting her to Singers.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]INDIA: [/font] Troops have started moving forward from Benares. I've got about 7 AA units moving with around 2k AV toward Patna. This will hopefully let me know if Nick plans to stay and fight in India or if he's willing to pull back rather than risk holding out. No major air strikes are planned against heavily defended targets, but a strike is heading fro some troops I see moving along the coast road, hopefully in strat mode.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CENT PAC: [/font] A few troops flown into Ocean Island. Other big shipments heading to the Gilberts. The IJN CVs are sitting near Bouganville, just hanging out. I'm risking some fast transport to Ocean but nothing major yet.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SO PAC: [/font] Tagula Island is nearing a level 1 airfield. Rekata almost has forts 1 built. The same small level bombing is happening daily, but I don't have a cactus air force. Yet.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CHINA: [/font] The Japanese try another DA and this time knock a fort off of Chikhiang down to forts 2. That's not good, but they did take much heavier losses. It seems there are plenty of recouped IJA units to transfer in though, and I'm sure he feels the same about the Chinese.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 1, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Chihkiang (78,50)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 32351 troops, 458 guns, 1131 vehicles, Assault Value = 1067

Defending force 45246 troops, 188 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1375

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Japanese adjusted assault: 990

Allied adjusted defense: 2221

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 2)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1274 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 201 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 13 (2 destroyed, 11 disabled)
Vehicles lost 77 (6 destroyed, 71 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1260 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 66 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Assaulting units:
17th Division
12th Tank Regiment
17th Tank Regiment
15th Tank Regiment
34th Division
13th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
19th Tank Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
18th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
13th Army
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
25th Chinese Corps
46th Chinese Corps
45th Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Corps
72nd Chinese Corps
23rd Group Army

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]

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[font="Trebuchet MS"]Nothing. Weird. [/font]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert
What may hurt him is not the distance travelled but the supply and resources consumed to do it. He's flying a lot of missions, bombarding and attacking a lot there.

+1: It is so easy to use too much air power in China, because pretty soon it is the only place Japan can use bombers without suffering hideous losses to flak and growing American/British air power.

PDU Off: Sonia isn't bad in China, Burma as a very short range recon plane. I like it there for that, as it frees up the longer legged recon to watch other areas.

I think where PDU off might hurt Japan the most is in night fighters although this is purely a swag...

A lot of Japanese players bomb "just for the hell of it" [;)] Bombing missions burn supply and supply is important to Japan. I wonder if bombing the snot out of Chinese units in strong terrain is worth the long term cost?

The Allies on the other hand can pretty much bomb away as long as their pools are healthy.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert
What may hurt him is not the distance travelled but the supply and resources consumed to do it. He's flying a lot of missions, bombarding and attacking a lot there.

+1: It is so easy to use too much air power in China, because pretty soon it is the only place Japan can use bombers without suffering hideous losses to flak and growing American/British air power.

PDU Off: Sonia isn't bad in China, Burma as a very short range recon plane. I like it there for that, as it frees up the longer legged recon to watch other areas.

I think where PDU off might hurt Japan the most is in night fighters although this is purely a swag...

A lot of Japanese players bomb "just for the hell of it" [;)] Bombing missions burn supply and supply is important to Japan. I wonder if bombing the snot out of Chinese units in strong terrain is worth the long term cost?

The Allies on the other hand can pretty much bomb away as long as their pools are healthy.

I did a lot of bombing in my first Japanese game in China, and the cost is real. I decided to look it up and do some calculations. This is based on the most recent turn, and just the bombing in China. The figures below just add onto the main costs of maintaining an attacking army in China, when even a resting division costs 1,500 supply/month to keep up.

The supply costs are here as stated by Alfred in Logistics 101:

[font="Trebuchet MS"](D.2) Cost of air missions

Each sortie flown consumes supply. Lack the requisite supply, the air mission is not flown. The actual supply cost depends on the type of mission flown and the type of plane as follows:

• Offensive Mission flown by a Level Bomber, the cost is (Maximum Load/1000) per plane
• Offensive Mission flown by a Dive Bomb or Torpedo, the cost is 1 supply point per plane
• Other missions such as Search and CAP expend only 1/3 of a supply point per plane

Hence a 12 plane Liberator squadron sent to bomb an airfield will consume 96 supply points. A USMC torpedo squadron of 18 Avengers will consume 18 supply points. [/font]

These are the loads for the most common Japanese bombers used in China:

Sally/Helen - 2205
Betty/Nell - 1764
Lily - 881
Sonia - 450
Ann - 992
Ida - 552
[font="Trebuchet MS"]
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 04, 42

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A6M3 Zero x 32/3 = 10.66

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Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 39 x 1.764 = 68.796
G4M1 Betty x 11 x 1.764 = 19.40

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Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 18x 1.764 = 31.752

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Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 3/3 = 1

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Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-Ic Sally x 22 x 2.205 = 48.532
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 72 x 2.205 = 158.76
Ki-49-Ia Helen x 53 x 2.205 = 116.865

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Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 11/3 = 3.667
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 29 x 0.881 = 25.549

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Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 25 x 0.881 = 22.025

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Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 27 x 1.764 = 47.628

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Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 18 x 1.764 = 31.752

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Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 14/3 = 4.667

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Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 27 x 2.205 = 59.535

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TOTAL SUPPLY COST FOR SWEEPS & BOMBING - 10/04/42 = 650.588

x30 = 19,517.64

[/font]

The replacements costs are another thing altogether. Once combat gets heavier this really starts to impact forward areas for Japan, and it's one of the main things that drains supply, forces more to be shipped out, and has a lot of impact. I seem to remember that there is a cost for repair of damaged planes too, but can't seem to find that. Does anyone know for sure?

[font="Trebuchet MS"](D.4) Cost of replacements

The basic supply cost for a LCU replacement device is the load cost.

For air units, the supply cost for each replacement airframe depends on the type of airframe:

• 12 supply points for fighter, fighter bomber
• 15 supply points for dive bomber, torpedo bomber, float plane, float fighter
• 18 supply points for night fighter, recon
• 30 supply points for heavy bomber, medium bomber, light bomber, attack bomber, transport, patrol
[/font]

Based on the most airframes claimed lost so far, here are some calculations of cost for replacements (but this doesn't include of course air groups upgrades costs):
[font="Trebuchet MS"]
Ki-21-IIa - 267 x 30 = 8,010

G4M1 - 243 x 30 = 7,290

Ki-43-Ic - 168 x 12 = 2,016

D3A1 - 162 x 15 = 2,430

Ki-15-II - 156 x 18 = 2,808

Ki-48b - 148 x 30 = 4,440

H6K4 - 126 x 30 = 3,780

B5N2 - 110 x 15 = 1,650

Ki-46-II - 106 x 30 = 3,180

Ki-21-Ic - 91 x 30 = 2,730

[/font]

[obvert]

For most Allied players and even a lot of Japanese players the figure of ~600 supply/day for bombing might not seem like much.

I then looked at what Japanese held China actually produces. It's not a lot. Only 1,466 supply/day currently.

If I'm conservative and I say he has 30 division equivalents in China now, at 50 supply/day, that's already 1,500 supply.

So the combat and the bombing should be running him a healthy deficit that has to be shipped in.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: obvert

For most Allied players and even a lot of Japanese players the figure of ~600 supply/day for bombing might not seem like much.

I then looked at what Japanese held China actually produces. It's not a lot. Only 1,466 supply/day currently.

If I'm conservative and I say he has 30 division equivalents in China now, at 50 supply/day, that's already 1,500 supply.

So the combat and the bombing should be running him a healthy deficit that has to be shipped in.

But in what way is it a problem to ship in this amount of supply. It is a bit of a drain but in no way critical...

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

• Other missions such as Search and CAP expend only 1/3 of a supply point per plane

Nice comprehensive post.

I like the bit above that I highlighted making the supply cost equal to run an Emily as Judy at normal ranges.

It is has been a while since I looked at Captain Crufts Hive AAR, but he was very quiet in China, well, everywhere really and I think he had banked incredible amount of supplies and resources (fuel, oil) for the end game...then the game ended before the end.[:(]

I think the cost of taking China in supplies is very large, but then again you get rewarded pretty well too in a much stronger strategic map. Especially if you take it all.

[Lokasenna]

The supply usage is not a fraction. It is rounded up. 18 Bettys = 36 supply, not 31.something...

This is actually why I have expanded some industry in China from the very early days of the war. Light industry in particular. Yes, it takes 3 years to "make it back", but, it lessens the supply I need to ship in from Japan by several hundred per day. That's significant, and we all know that China will still be in Japanese hands come summer/fall of 1944 (the breakeven point).

It's only 550 days to break even if you expand HI.

I did a mix of both.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

ORIGINAL: obvert

For most Allied players and even a lot of Japanese players the figure of ~600 supply/day for bombing might not seem like much.

I then looked at what Japanese held China actually produces. It's not a lot. Only 1,466 supply/day currently.

If I'm conservative and I say he has 30 division equivalents in China now, at 50 supply/day, that's already 1,500 supply.

So the combat and the bombing should be running him a healthy deficit that has to be shipped in.

But in what way is it a problem to ship in this amount of supply. It is a bit of a drain but in no way critical...

Not in 42, but later it can be critical. It's just one of many drains on the Japanese economy, and the real costs aren't actually calculable (by me at least[:)]) since they include the daily bombardments and dozens of DA/SAs by several large armies. At some points when I was doing this I had 2 TFs on CS convoys to Shanghai and another 2 going to Hong Kong delivering 25-30k each trip.

Wiping China and getting the industry of the central plains can really pay this back, but I'm hoping he won't get that so that it remains a big deficit.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The supply usage is not a fraction. It is rounded up. 18 Bettys = 36 supply, not 31.something...

This is actually why I have expanded some industry in China from the very early days of the war. Light industry in particular. Yes, it takes 3 years to "make it back", but, it lessens the supply I need to ship in from Japan by several hundred per day. That's significant, and we all know that China will still be in Japanese hands come summer/fall of 1944 (the breakeven point).

It's only 550 days to break even if you expand HI.

I did a mix of both.

Increasing some LI makes sense. Definitely in Northern China, like Peiping. Out of the range of the B-29s once they get going in India/Burma.

The HI not as much since China only produces a small amount of fuel, so that may have to be shipped in.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The supply usage is not a fraction. It is rounded up. 18 Bettys = 36 supply, not 31.something...

This is actually why I have expanded some industry in China from the very early days of the war. Light industry in particular. Yes, it takes 3 years to "make it back", but, it lessens the supply I need to ship in from Japan by several hundred per day. That's significant, and we all know that China will still be in Japanese hands come summer/fall of 1944 (the breakeven point).

It's only 550 days to break even if you expand HI.

I did a mix of both.

Increasing some LI makes sense. Definitely in Northern China, like Peiping. Out of the range of the B-29s once they get going in India/Burma.

The HI not as much since China only produces a small amount of fuel, so that may have to be shipped in.

That isn't a problem since fuel gets shipped to, or past, China anyway. And the engine doesn't care where HI is made, so China is as good a spot as any.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The supply usage is not a fraction. It is rounded up. 18 Bettys = 36 supply, not 31.something...

This is actually why I have expanded some industry in China from the very early days of the war. Light industry in particular. Yes, it takes 3 years to "make it back", but, it lessens the supply I need to ship in from Japan by several hundred per day. That's significant, and we all know that China will still be in Japanese hands come summer/fall of 1944 (the breakeven point).

It's only 550 days to break even if you expand HI.

I did a mix of both.

Increasing some LI makes sense. Definitely in Northern China, like Peiping. Out of the range of the B-29s once they get going in India/Burma.

The HI not as much since China only produces a small amount of fuel, so that may have to be shipped in.

That isn't a problem since fuel gets shipped to, or past, China anyway. And the engine doesn't care where HI is made, so China is as good a spot as any.

One thing I found in my one long game, (which is a very small sample size but I've seen this possibility in other AARed games), was that in the DEI the extra HI factories might in some locations keep producing after the oil/fuel lanes are cut off to the North. I had Singers making 50 HI and a few places in Java that just kept producing as they were never bombed out.

Very different if the DEI is taken, and every opponent will play it differently. I just like that as an option so I'll always build any extra HI down there from now on.

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Oct 3 - 4, 1942[/font]

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[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SUBS: [/font] Still no sign of anything near Sabang. The Kaga has vanished, but there is no rise in VPs to show it was sunk. I think she's escaped.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]INDIA: [/font] A massive move from Benares and a smaller one from Gorakhpur are not met with any direct response yet, but troops of some kind are poised to move out of Patna. If this is a retreat then I will have achieved the aim of the op before even starting. I'll keep moving forward and planning some para-drops further up.

On the other side Bellary is still vacant and Manglalore is repaired, ready for aircraft. I'm getting the sense, just a feeling, Nick might just be retreating from India. Maybe the hit on Kaga had something to do with it?

Along the coast we bomb shipping engineer Coy that's going somewhere.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CENT PAC: [/font] The forays to Ocean go through with no response. Once I can get some PBYs operating there I'll feel much better about the entire area and what is potentially on the horizon.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SO PAC: [/font] Nick begins bombing smaller bases with a lot of IJN bombers. Not much damage done, though. Rekata Bay gets a 4 plane Aussie Cat group and now I'l be able to see just that bit farther.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CHINA: [/font] The bombing around Kweiyang intensifies and then there is a DA on the 4th. It gets a 1:2 but the Japanese take almost no damage while the Chinese are struggling to hold on. I can't really take much more of the bombing and hope to hold anywhere in x2 territory, so I've made a choice to defend the air in China. Supply has been going up lately, and there are three centers now that can operate fighters. Changsha, Kunming and of course Chungking. I've flown in four groups to LR CAP the troops near Kweiyang for the 5th.

The moves currently happening in India could begin to open up a path to the mountains, and if this happens I'll finally be able to add supply over the hump. That would make the air force more sustainable, but for now I'll see how it goes.

My Lysander unit was finally caught by zeros and destroyed mercilessly near Kweiyang. My own fault as I didn't turn them off after getting some recon.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 4, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 73,49 (near Kweiyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 9669 troops, 200 guns, 734 vehicles, Assault Value = 506

Defending force 41091 troops, 285 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1042

Japanese adjusted assault: 256

Allied adjusted defense: 667

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
114 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
917 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 82 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 17 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled

Assaulting units:
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
4th Tank Regiment
Guards Tank Division
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
34th Chinese Corps
67th Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
71st Chinese Corps
21st Group Army
11th Chinese Base Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]

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[font="Trebuchet MS"]One good thing about the recent bombardment and small actions is that a lot of ship crews are now gaining experience much more quickly. The Australia is looking pretty good, even at night. [/font]

[JocMeister]

Watch it when retreating. You won´t believe how fast overstacking can burn ALL the supply in the hex. It can very quickly snowball out of control and turn into an avalanche of retreats. Once that happens there is no recovery.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Watch it when retreating. You won´t believe how fast overstacking can burn ALL the supply in the hex. It can very quickly snowball out of control and turn into an avalanche of retreats. Once that happens there is no recovery.

Do you mean in China?

I'm not really retreating anywhere, yet. The only places I've had to finally move I managed to get out by my own design rather than being forced to go. Right now the retreats that could occur wouldn't really hurt as the stack one hex outside of Kweiyang is right at the 50k SL max but the Kweiyang hex is at around 30k, and it's being reduced to around 15k. So if he pushed me back it wouldn't be overstacked by much and the roads are good so it could be fixed in two days. At Chikhiang it's much the same, and the good roads make it a short lived situation.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Watch it when retreating. You won´t believe how fast overstacking can burn ALL the supply in the hex. It can very quickly snowball out of control and turn into an avalanche of retreats. Once that happens there is no recovery.

Do you mean in China?

I'm not really retreating anywhere, yet. The only places I've had to finally move I managed to get out by my own design rather than being forced to go. Right now the retreats that could occur wouldn't really hurt as the stack one hex outside of Kweiyang is right at the 50k SL max but the Kweiyang hex is at around 30k, and it's being reduced to around 15k. So if he pushed me back it wouldn't be overstacked by much and the roads are good so it could be fixed in two days. At Chikhiang it's much the same, and the good roads make it a short lived situation.

Yes, in China. Looking at the CR you will retreat from 73,49 shortly whether you want to or not. [:D] Sounds like you got it covered though. [:)]

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

Quick note on the bombing conversation: I've noticed in many games players bomb far too much, and then even if successful, don't take operational advantage. What good is it for a Japanese player to use up supply, Ops losses bombing a Chinese unit to 90 Disruption and 70 fatigue if he doesn't storm the hex and then move forward to take a key city?
I'd say in one game I played about 50% of the Allied player's bombings were really just nuisance, though they cost him a lot of Ops losses. They may have weakened an island garrison by 5% or something, but really did nothing substantial in the long run.