RIDERS ON THE STORM-THANK YOU

[racndoc]

Hey GH

Havent read your thread for awhile.....been busy with my own games. Boy how the situation has changed in China!

Now that you have extricated some units from Changsha, how about cutting his supply line at Liuchow. Or split some of your corps into divisions...maybe attack his killer stacks at Liuchow and Wuchow with small units to reset his movement...turnabout is fair play. China isnt lost yet! Place "guerilla" units on either side of the road to Chungking to interdict his supply.

[Alfred]

I think Feinder, in post #1139, was referring to Moses's AAR where his opponent's combined sea landing and paradrop at Port Moresby halved his AV.
 
Alfred

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Wirraway - the squawk over Troll's use of paras is that the game grants control of the hex whether the unit has 10 or 10,000 men.  You can drop 2 squads of paras on a road behind 5x Corps of units, and engine allows them to mark control of entire (60 mile hex), and the 5x Corps will surrender.

-THAT- is the problem people have with using paras in such a way.

I understand what you are saying about dropping ONTO-INTO an enemy base.  Again, that is a limitation of the engine, and that the hexes are 60 miles.  In reality, if you were going to drop to support an attack on a base, even NOT on the base, but as paras cut of the base in support of a general assault, you probably wouldn't drop 60 miles away (which is what you'd be doing in WitP if you dropped in an adjacent hex). My guess is you'd drop within 12 miles(?) of the general objective, which would be in the same hex in WitP terms.

Thanks Feinder.
concur with the scale issue. 60 miles is a long way from anything after your feet hit the ground. Of course, the real issue is the distance from the DZ to the objective, which might not be a base, but could simply be a key choke point. I also agree that mini-paradrops don't make sense in a game of this scale. If it is not a Bde drop, it probably doesn't belong in WiTP. Even in the AE scale, it would take a Bde to exert any sort of influence on such an area.

Anyway, good luck to GH...

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/04/42
 
Guys, thanks for all your support. Really. I do appreciate it. A lot.
 
Anyway Changsha, as predicted, fell today. I don't have the turn, just the reply, but i'm quite sure of what happened. My units are now trapped between Luichow (where he has 5 tank rgts and some 10 units one hex south marching to support it) and Hangchow where what remained of Changsha army has been pushed...
Now we're really risking the total and complete annihilation...I'll try to break at Liuchow with what i have...but if he conquers it before i can make my units arrive there from Hangchow...well...the Pocket will be closed[:o]
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape Coastal Gun Regiment, at 73,80
 
 We hammered a bit more the guns at Ponape...

Allied aircraft
Beaufort I x 19
P-40B Tomahawk x 2
P-40E Warhawk x 10
A-20B Boston x 13
B-25C Mitchell x 9
B-26B Marauder x 15
A-29 Hudson x 12
 
 
No Allied losses
 
Japanese ground losses:
111 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 13,3
 
Japanese Ships
AK Kinjosan Maru, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
 
Allied Ships
SS KXIV
 
 One of our minelaying subs managed to sink an AK that was being a bait near Aden Channell[:D]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Changsha
 
Japanese Shock attack
 
Attacking force 435243 troops, 2295 guns, 305 vehicles, Assault Value = 9349
 
Defending force 57699 troops, 216 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1745
 
Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 6
 
Japanese max assault: 9429 - adjusted assault: 16306 [X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(]
 
Allied max defense: 1351 - adjusted defense: 764
 
Japanese assault odds: 21 to 1 (fort level 6)
 
Japanese forces CAPTURE Changsha base !!!
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
no flights
 
 
No Allied losses
 
Japanese ground losses:
5708 casualties reported
Guns lost 69
Vehicles lost 5
 
Allied ground losses:
7679 casualties reported
Guns lost 105
 
....oh my God...have you seen the adjusted AV???....[:o]

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Wirraway - the squawk over Troll's use of paras is that the game grants control of the hex whether the unit has 10 or 10,000 men.  You can drop 2 squads of paras on a road behind 5x Corps of units, and engine allows them to mark control of entire (60 mile hex), and the 5x Corps will surrender.

-THAT- is the problem people have with using paras in such a way.

I understand what you are saying about dropping ONTO-INTO an enemy base.  Again, that is a limitation of the engine, and that the hexes are 60 miles.  In reality, if you were going to drop to support an attack on a base, even NOT on the base, but as paras cut of the base in support of a general assault, you probably wouldn't drop 60 miles away (which is what you'd be doing in WitP if you dropped in an adjacent hex). My guess is you'd drop within 12 miles(?) of the general objective, which would be in the same hex in WitP terms.

Thanks Feinder.
concur with the scale issue. 60 miles is a long way from anything after your feet hit the ground. Of course, the real issue is the distance from the DZ to the objective, which might not be a base, but could simply be a key choke point. I also agree that mini-paradrops don't make sense in a game of this scale. If it is not a Bde drop, it probably doesn't belong in WiTP. Even in the AE scale, it would take a Bde to exert any sort of influence on such an area.

Anyway, good luck to GH...

Hi Wirraway. I agree that paras should never be dropped on an enemy base...directly...well the 1st Fallshirmjeger (sp??) was sent to Malee (sp?) in Creete and got annihilated....but however...in game terms this is the only use you can do of paras. If you use on a non - base hex, you simply force your opponent to cover every single road hex with strong units...which is pretty impossible in places like India. Otherwise, if the retreat road is cutby paras, your marching units will be catapulted in the middle of nowhere (see what happened in India with me)...

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

Hey GH

Havent read your thread for awhile.....been busy with my own games. Boy how the situation has changed in China!

Now that you have extricated some units from Changsha, how about cutting his supply line at Liuchow. Or split some of your corps into divisions...maybe attack his killer stacks at Liuchow and Wuchow with small units to reset his movement...turnabout is fair play. China isnt lost yet! Place "guerilla" units on either side of the road to Chungking to interdict his supply.

Hi Adm....i'll try but you'll know how bad is my situation as soon as i'll get the turn...i have the whole southern and Central chinese armies pocketed between Changsha and Liuchow...cut off from any supply route...and with thiny defensive corps to keep the road open at Liuchow...
Not yet...i agree...China is almost lost[:)]

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

OK, try this, I think it still works. At Changsa, have one unit defend. All other units should be given movement orders to a CITY - important that they have orders to move to a city. Please give it a try, it will not affect anything if it doesn't work like I think - all your units will just stay there.

Simply too late for Changsha Nomad...i'll try that at Hangchow if i can...


Anyway, to change a bit the prospective, let's talk a bit about the pacific.
I've reinforced both Wake and Midway...just in case. Now both of them have 200 AVs, CD guns, AA units and some bombers...enough to provide some good defence.
I've divided the 2nd USMC Div in 3 rgts, so that these can be used indipendently.
The first wave of fast transport will sail from Eniwetok in 6 days. The /A regiment and the marine raider Bn. will be loaded.
4 BBs will support the landing with some bombardment runs.
My 4 CVs will stay in rear-guard, lingering 3 hex south of Eniwetok.
Naval search missions have been incresed. Liberators and B-17s will give their support to the 6 Catalinas squadrons and the 2 conrados units that are already operating between Midway-Wake and Eniwetok...this screen should spot any KB coming down from Japan or arriving at Truk (which is being constantly reconned by my F-5s at Eniwetok).
The P-38s are finally in the line. 2 Squadrons, for a total of 45 P-38Fs are ready at Eniwetok!
I need Ponape...

In the meanwhile i'm planning to reinforce, a lot, the Aleutinas....if China falls then Trolleilite has already stated he's going for Russia...so i need to support that front (given our HRs) from the Aleutinas...

However my predictions were correct: Trollelite wants to estabilish a continental Empire...he simply doesn't care about the Pacific

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Changsha

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 435243 troops, 2295 guns, 305 vehicles, Assault Value = 9349

Defending force 57699 troops, 216 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1745

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 6

Japanese max assault: 9429 - adjusted assault: 16306 [X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(]

Allied max defense: 1351 - adjusted defense: 764

Japanese assault odds: 21 to 1 (fort level 6)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Changsha base !!!



Allied aircraft
no flights


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
5708 casualties reported
Guns lost 69
Vehicles lost 5

Allied ground losses:
7679 casualties reported
Guns lost 105

....oh my God...have you seen the adjusted AV???....[:o]

9400 assault points at Changsha?? Does he have a single unit elsewhere in China? Now I know why he made the deal of you stopping your offensive elsewhere in China for him stopping his para drops on non base hexes... This is, again, nuts. Most of China must be completely open and a couple of your corps could probably march to Korea...

[Gen.Hoepner]

Now i'm considering the chance to abbandon The northern China to march all over to Chungking...problem is that it's all trail...and we risk to arrive at Chungking when it's already conquered....[:(]
 
What do do?

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Changsha

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 435243 troops, 2295 guns, 305 vehicles, Assault Value = 9349

Defending force 57699 troops, 216 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1745

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 6

Japanese max assault: 9429 - adjusted assault: 16306 [X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(]

Allied max defense: 1351 - adjusted defense: 764

Japanese assault odds: 21 to 1 (fort level 6)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Changsha base !!!



Allied aircraft
no flights


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
5708 casualties reported
Guns lost 69
Vehicles lost 5

Allied ground losses:
7679 casualties reported
Guns lost 105

....oh my God...have you seen the adjusted AV???....[:o]

9400 assault points at Changsha?? Does he have a single unit elsewhere in China? Now I know why he made the deal of you stopping your offensive elsewhere in China for him stopping his para drops on non base hexes... This is, again, nuts. Most of China must be completely open and a couple of your corps could probably march to Korea...

Consider that he has more 4000 AVs advancing from Canton...You see now why i say that China is lost? how can i handle all those AVs???

[Nemo121]

Consolidate, withdraw to a defensible line and build up your defences. Supply in China is the key. it is no point having numbers if you cannot supply those numbers.
 
In my game against Jagdfluger I'm just about holding Changsha against 4,500 AV despite the fact that my Chinese armies at Changsha number only about 3,000 AV. Supply, not numbers is the key in China.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Now i'm considering the chance to abbandon The northern China to march all over to Chungking...problem is that it's all trail...and we risk to arrive at Chungking when it's already conquered....[:(]

What do do?

Don't do that, you have enough supply produced in the northern bases to make a strong redoubt in the mountain terrain there with the forces you have in the north. You’ll never make enough supply at Chungking and Chengtu to feed the extra troops anyway, so leave them in the north.

I'd fall back to Sian and Yenan and dig in. Don’t do anything else since you want supplies to grow over time if possible and offensives will burn them up. Get about 3-4 corps into each of the mountain bases up north right now, so they can get those forts dug ASAP.

If you have to, abandon Yenan to do this, as those forts are far more important in the long run than a battle at Yenan would be. Yenan is far too easy to isolate and very hard to retreat from once serious Japanese force arrive in the area.

If you have them, use transport planes from Chengtu to fly supplies to Kungchang every day. The normal range mission of 6 to Kungchang flies more supplies per turn than longer range 8 missions would fly to either Sian or Lanchow, so fly it to the tiny base instead.

In a way getting your army wiped out at Changsha is going to be a blessing if it arrives back on map at Chungking before the Japanese do. Your army in the south is too big to be fed by the supplies produced at Chungking and Chengtu, so in the end, a one third strength army will fight better at Chungking than a full strength army would.

If you’re sure that you’re going to lose the majority of your army in the south, then your strategy has to become one of delay instead of defense. Your goal is to slow Japan down long enough for your army to reappear at Chungking in 30-40 days or so. So you should no longer be looking at ways to try and defend something. Instead you should be looking for ways to slow down Japan’s advance after your main army gets killed.

If you’re positive you’re not going to be able to hold. Get everything started preparing for Chungking right now. The units will accumulate prep points while in the reinforcement track, so you want them started preparing for Chungking before they get destroyed.

Abandon all other bases in China west of Chungking and prepare a defense in the three woods terrain hexes south and southwest of Chungking as delaying positions. You may also need something in the trail hex east if he comes that way too.

If everything gets moved close to Chungking in time, all supplies left at the outlying empty bases should get pulled to Chungking before Japan can take them or cut off the roads leading to them.

The units near Nanning can be air lifted to Chungking if you have enough C-47’s and Dakota’s. Otherwise make a redoubt in the base with the highest fort levels between the two bases you have down there. Then air lift the supplies back to Chungking, as they’ll do you a lot more good there in the long run than they would keeping those few Nanning units fed for an extra day or two before they die.

Jim

Edit: At Sian I'd make its initial defense 1 hex southeast in the woods terrain, so you can continue producing supplies once Japanese units arrive. Fall back to Sian once Yenan become Japanese controlled. I'd also create a strong (3-4 corps with an HQ) blocking position in the woods hex northeast to prevent Sian's isolation from the northern bases.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
9400 assault points at Changsha?? Does he have a single unit elsewhere in China?

My guess is he has almost his entire Korea-Manchu garrison army in China right now.

Jim

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: castor troy
9400 assault points at Changsha?? Does he have a single unit elsewhere in China?

My guess is he has almost his entire Korea-Manchu garrison army in China right now.

Jim

This would have activated the SU. But the houserules of this game do not restrict the use of Kwantung Army units in China anyway.

Whatever happened here, the assault strength Trollelite was able to muster at Changsha is quite a surprise considering that at least one CEA division is in the PI. Really strange.

General, please could you post a screenie that shows the composition of Japanese forces at Changsha?

[Elladan]

If Soviets are not active he has to keep at least 6000AV there. I'm just wondering what effect on his supply would not leaving garrisons in China have.
Regarding Changsa-Liuchow forces - could you somehow ensure they will surrender? That might be much better result for you then having them retreated into woods somewhere.

[PzB74]

With such an amount of assault points China looks doomed indeed...
(Sorry, always been more of a realist than an idealist!-)

China always hangs in the balance and any 'stunt' that further skews the balance will make it almost
impossible to prevent its fall. When I noticed how easily it would be to capture it in Stock I canceled
all offensive operations and the borders have remained the same for almost 4 years now.

So it looks like Trollelite may get his AV, and then it will be your job to reverse the fortunes from Karachi, Northern Oz
and Cent Pac General. A daunting task, but it will be interesting for sure! [8D]

[Gen.Hoepner]

Here's the screenshot...
As soon as i get back to office i'll comment...

Thx guys

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Elladan

If Soviets are not active he has to keep at least 6000AV there. I'm just wondering what effect on his supply would not leaving garrisons in China have.
Regarding Changsa-Liuchow forces - could you somehow ensure they will surrender? That might be much better result for you then having them retreated into woods somewhere.

in stock you need 8000 assault points for garrison duty. Don´t know about CHS though.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
in stock you need 8000 assault points for garrison duty. Don´t know about CHS though.

You only need them assigned to the HQ to prevent activation, nothing stops Troll from marching them into China, which is what I think he's done. Of course I could be wrong, but he sure does have a lot of power in China and India combined. Too much I think for him not to have moved all or most of his Kwangtung armies into China without paying political points to do so.

But as someone said, there is no HR preventing him from doing so. [8|]

Jim

[Fishbed]

If Soviets are not active he has to keep at least 6000AV there. I'm just wondering what effect on his supply would not leaving garrisons in China have.

is there anyway he may have moved a lot of weaker units from the HI to relieve the Mandchukuo garrison, or would that move ask for too many PPs?