Here we go again! tc464 (A) vs. Mike (J) - No tc464

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

DEF: You didn't ask about this, but I like minimum defense to be >50 for my fighter units. Non-combatants can get by with less.

Yeah, DEF. For some reason, I don't typically look at that. Is general training the only way to effectively increase this one? I know it goes up with all kinds of training, but usually pretty slowly.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

DEF: You didn't ask about this, but I like minimum defense to be >50 for my fighter units. Non-combatants can get by with less.

Yeah, DEF. For some reason, I don't typically look at that. Is general training the only way to effectively increase this one? I know it goes up with all kinds of training, but usually pretty slowly.

It will go up with general training or with skill-specific training. Both methods are somewhat slow. My understanding is that it rises more slowly when the specific skill rises more slowly, so your 'bang for the buck' is in training other skills that are lower to get more DEF training. Hence the 'general' training approach of some.

[SoliInvictus202]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

DEF: You didn't ask about this, but I like minimum defense to be >50 for my fighter units. Non-combatants can get by with less.

Yeah, DEF. For some reason, I don't typically look at that. Is general training the only way to effectively increase this one? I know it goes up with all kinds of training, but usually pretty slowly.

I think if you train your pilots for escort and sweep - then def rises pretty fast IMO..
I find general training utterly useless... with ANY plane type...

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

DEF: You didn't ask about this, but I like minimum defense to be >50 for my fighter units. Non-combatants can get by with less.

Yeah, DEF. For some reason, I don't typically look at that. Is general training the only way to effectively increase this one? I know it goes up with all kinds of training, but usually pretty slowly.

I think if you train your pilots for escort and sweep - then def rises pretty fast IMO..
I find general training utterly useless... with ANY plane type...

Agreed train at 100 feet using sweep and defense goes up at a pretty good rate. I have criteria for pilots but it's all allied based so I don't know how it would transalate to the Japanese side.

Once the allied player starts getting his replenshment CVs in early spring his naval aviator training can go into overdrive if he choses the IJN doesnt have that capability.

The IJAAF looks like theres more than enough to embark on a solid program but naval training it looks like creativity is the order of the day.[&:] I'm still fermenting ideas but one thing I've considered is every time a carrier goes in the yard is completely strip every trained pilot from the unit and fill up with greenhorns until the CV is done upgrading. Lots of clicking but it looks like that and other ideas are a neccessity, but the struggle is the beauty of playing this side. [:)]

[Mike Solli]

Guys, I appreciate all the input. You're helping me out more than you can imagine. Note that I haven't considered R&D yet. Here's the air plan assuming PDU on:

IJNAF

This is the easy one. Here's what I'll produce:

Plane (#/month)

A6M2 (100)
G3M2 (30)
G4M1 (30)
C5M2 (10)
B5N2 (50)
D3Y1 (50)
E13A1 (30)
E14Y1 (9)
H6K4 (10)
H6K2-L (6)
L3Y2 (10)

Before you guys start screaming that the levels are too low, it's just my initial levels which will be reached by the first week in Jan 42. At that point I'll determine if adjustments should be made. A few notes...

A6M2 - Obviously, I want to replace all the A5M4s in the frontline as quickly as possible and bring all the A6M2 units up to full strength. That'll take 88 airframes, not counting losses. The pool starts with 26 and there are a total of 13 excess A6M2s in units at the start. I hope to have the DEI units converted/filled by the end of Dec 41 and the 24 Air Flotilla units converted in Jan 42. We'll see. I don't want to overproduce this model (or have factories that are too large) because the A6M3 is the model that upgrades to the good stuff. Once the A6M3 comes online (Jun 42), I plan on producing more of those. They will replace the M2 in the ground based units. The M2 will be allocated to carrier units and a couple select ground units. I plan on increasing the R&D of the M3 hoping to bring it online a month or two earlier.

G3M2/G4M1 - There's a modest 46 Nells in the pool and 0 Bettys, but the Betty units are over strength for the most part. I typically don't lose many of these in the beginning, so I think it'll be ok. I plan on producing the variants of both throughout the war.

C5M2 - I will produce just a few to keep up with losses. It's all the IJNAF has at the start so I have to sustain them.

E13A1 - This is the model I will use. The Petes will be pulled from frontline service and be used as trainers. I'll use the others until their stocks are depleted both in the front line and as trainers when needed.

H6K4 - Not sure if 10 per month is sufficient. I'll bump this up if need be.

H6K2-L & L3Y2 - These are my naval transports.

IJAAF

Ki-43-Ic (128)
Ki-21-IIa (40)
Ki-46-II (20)
Ki-48-Ib (40)
Ki-57-I (10)

Ki-43-Ic - This is the only way to go. I chose 128 because I can get 3 factories to that in a month. This will be the main fighter in Burma and China (eventually). Gotta get numbers up fast. I'll need 300 just to convert all the Nate units. There's only 11 in the pool. I thought hard about building some Nates early on to fill out the training units fast, but decided against it. Those 254 Nakajima Kotobuki engines just sitting there in the pool keep calling to me. About 118 of those 300 will fill out the training units. The remaining 180 are just going to sit in the pool. Let those 254 engines rot! Not worth the HI to just end up sitting in the pool. I may increase it above 128 but I'll decide in Jan 42.

Ki-21-IIa/Ki-48-Ib - This is tough, especially with all the discussion on the board about IJA medium bombers. I decided to stick with the Lily because of the DB variant later in the war. I'm thinking initial production of Helens at 40 as well. I think 120 per month will work, but am open to increasing the Sally and Helen further if needed.

Some discussion of the 1E bombers. I have a use for all of them. Initially, I'll use what's available primarily in a Naval Attack mode to hit the fleeing Allied merchants. I've had good luck with this in the past. As I build Lilys, I'll swap them out, beginning with the 3 & 5 Air Divisions, then China eventually. I hate the Ki-36, even with the camera. Those guys get pulled for other 1Es as soon as possible. They're trainers. I won't keep them even in China. I'll use the Ki-30 and Ki-32. I'll use the Ki-51 in China for a bit of time but pull them out of the DEI asap as well. Too small of a bomb load. They will all end up as trainers. I make sure and keep 1 of each type in Manchuoko (the rest there are Ki-36s) so I can downgrade to them later if needed. I will not produce any more of them.

Ki-57-I - This is my IJA transport going forward. The Ki-59 is a piece of trash. There are a total of 36 around the map and in the pool. These will become trainers in the 4 chutai in Manchuoko. They'll give up their Ki-57-Is to front line units. I like the MC-21 (but I can't give a good reason why [:D]). The 12 spares will fill out a 9 plane chutai. That'll give 3 spares for 2 chutai. When the numbers fall low enough, I'll move all the planes into one chutai and upgrade the other. Ki-56s - We start with 2 chutai and 9 planes in the pool. I'll upgrade one of the Ki-59 chutai and do the same as with the MC-21. Eventually, everything will be Topsy with the exception of the trainers. So after all the moves, there will be the following transport chutai in the frontline:

Ki-57-I - 1x 27 plane sentai, 1x 12 and 2x 9
Ki-56 - 3x 9
MC-21 - 1x 12 & 1x 9

So, with the 27 L3Y2s, there are a total of 132 transports available. I plan on using them a lot!

Ki-46-II - This is the obvious choice. I will use the Ki-15-II and Ki-46-I until their stocks are depleted. Eventually, the remaining Ki-15-IIs and Ki-46-Is will end up in China. The Ki-15-II is the trainer.

Engines:

I'll increase capacity to slightly exceed need.

Here are the airframe factory changes. Note that these numbers are included in the production numbers above:

F1M2 (3) to H6K2-L (6)
Ki-27b (35) to Ki-43-Ic (32)
Ki-27b (10) to C5M2 (10)
Ki-36 (32) to A6M2 (34)
Ki-51 (30) to Ki-43-Ic (32)
Ki-56 (2) to L3Y2 (10)

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ki-43-Ic - This is the only way to go. I chose 128 because I can get 3 factories to that in a month. This will be the main fighter in Burma and China (eventually). Gotta get numbers up fast. I'll need 300 just to convert all the Nate units. There's only 11 in the pool. I thought hard about building some Nates early on to fill out the training units fast, but decided against it. Those 254 Nakajima Kotobuki engines just sitting there in the pool keep calling to me. About 118 of those 300 will fill out the training units. The remaining 180 are just going to sit in the pool. Let those 254 engines rot! Not worth the HI to just end up sitting in the pool. I may increase it above 128 but I'll decide in Jan 42.

IIRC there is quite a lots of frontline units with NATEs. If you do not want to keep them out of action, it would be nice to have them filled with planes, and it will take several months to produce enough OSCARs to rearm every unit.
So, either you will keep them out of fight, or use them depleted. The more planes, the better performance (and pilot gains/survival).

Some discussion of the 1E bombers. I have a use for all of them. Initially, I'll use what's available primarily in a Naval Attack mode to hit the fleeing Allied merchants. I've had good luck with this in the past. As I build Lilys, I'll swap them out, beginning with the 3 & 5 Air Divisions, then China eventually. I hate the Ki-36, even with the camera. Those guys get pulled for other 1Es as soon as possible. They're trainers. I won't keep them even in China. I'll use the Ki-30 and Ki-32. I'll use the Ki-51 in China for a bit of time but pull them out of the DEI asap as well. Too small of a bomb load. They will all end up as trainers. I make sure and keep 1 of each type in Manchuoko (the rest there are Ki-36s) so I can downgrade to them later if needed. I will not produce any more of them.

The one obvious thing - they operate from lvl 2 airfield, and it is hard to find anything developed enough at the war beginning. So you are either using 1E bombers for close support at normal range, or 2E from smaller airfield (and suffer more op loses).

Question for the group: The IJNAF begins the war with exactly 60 fighter slots in restricted HQs, allowing the training of 80 fighter pilots at a time. That's about 25 a month. Not nearly enough. Can Petes, or any other float planes, fly sweep or escort missions? If so, they can be used to train fighter pilots.

I am using one of the Dutch fighter group for training Naval Attack, so I see no problem.
The only difference is, that fresh pilots tend to have skill fitting type of planes in the group, slightly higher.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks Chickenboy. Historically, float planes were used (rather unsuccessfully) as fighters by the Japanese. I see no reason why we can't use them as trainers.

Yes. I remember reading of their involvement(s) in the Solomons in particular. The Rex doesn't look atrocious as a fighter unit-particularly in a pinch.

RUFE is much better, than in WITP. It can actually hold on its own against P-40 now.

[obvert]

G3M2/G4M1 - There's a modest 46 Nells in the pool and 0 Bettys, but the Betty units are over strength for the most part. I typically don't lose many of these in the beginning, so I think it'll be ok. I plan on producing the variants of both throughout the war.

Just curious why you would keep the Nell in production? Is there some advantage over the Betty for certain roles, or does it have to do with the engines and production?

How is the radar on the G3M3? I've haven't really used it.

[PaxMondo]

G3M3 radar doesn't arrive until 45 or so.  Not sure anyone knows the impact.  [;)]
 
Agree with Inquisitor, RUFE does seem to work well, at least for me.
 
I also keep the Nell in production.  The first upgrade is the best 2E naval bomber for a long time.  At least for range/load.  When Frances arrives, then you can consider an armored bomber ...

[Mike Solli]

Inqistor, I guess I was unclear. I will use the Nates in the frontline until they are replaced. Actually, I plan on upgrading 1 chutai to Oscars immediately. There are enough Nates in the pool to fill out all the Nate units in the 3 & 5 Air Divisions. The concern is that there won't be any spares to replace losses until I get enough Oscars to upgrade other Nate units. It's something I'll have to live with.

Good point on the 1E bombers & level 2 airfields. I was unclear here too I guess. I will use them until they are upgraded. Initially, they are very effective against Allied merchant shipping but become less effective as the merchant shipping becomes more scarce. I plan on upgrading the Ki-51 sentai in 3 AD to Lily immediately. They'll need more 2E bombers for use against Singapore. The 5 AD Ki-51s and Ki-36s both get upgraded to Ki-30s. This fits well here too. They can operate from smaller airfields, which are in abundance in that area.

One last point about engines. I'm not really concerned about which engine is used for a particular airframe. As long as it is planned for, it shouldn't matter.

[Mike Solli]

I just got a great idea from GBL's AAR! The B5N1 uses the Nakajima Hikari engine and there are 99 of those engines in the pool, with no use. The B5N2 factory starts at 0. I'm going to change it to B5N1 (no cost to change) and increase it to 50, as I had planned for the B5N2. Once all the engines are used, I'll convert it for free to the B5N2 and continue production. I may have to change one or two of KBs TB daitai to the N1 down the road, but that's no matter. Thanks GBL!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I just got a great idea from GBL's AAR! The B5N1 uses the Nakajima Hikari engine and there are 99 of those engines in the pool, with no use. The B5N2 factory starts at 0. I'm going to change it to B5N1 (no cost to change) and increase it to 50, as I had planned for the B5N2. Once all the engines are used, I'll convert it for free to the B5N2 and continue production. I may have to change one or two of KBs TB daitai to the N1 down the road, but that's no matter. Thanks GBL!

Not a bad idea, Mike. I usually will use up all the Nakajima Hikari engines by producing surplus B5N1s as Kamikazes later in the war. Your approach sounds good too.

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I just got a great idea from GBL's AAR! The B5N1 uses the Nakajima Hikari engine and there are 99 of those engines in the pool, with no use. The B5N2 factory starts at 0. I'm going to change it to B5N1 (no cost to change) and increase it to 50, as I had planned for the B5N2. Once all the engines are used, I'll convert it for free to the B5N2 and continue production. I may have to change one or two of KBs TB daitai to the N1 down the road, but that's no matter. Thanks GBL!

Not a bad idea, Mike. I usually will use up all the Nakajima Hikari engines by producing surplus B5N1s as Kamikazes later in the war. Your approach sounds good too.

Not my idea Mike - somebody suggested it to me in my AAR.

[Mike Solli]

Doesn't matter, GBL. Your discussion of it in your AAR was the spark. Thanks!

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I just got a great idea from GBL's AAR! The B5N1 uses the Nakajima Hikari engine and there are 99 of those engines in the pool, with no use. The B5N2 factory starts at 0. I'm going to change it to B5N1 (no cost to change) and increase it to 50, as I had planned for the B5N2. Once all the engines are used, I'll convert it for free to the B5N2 and continue production. I may have to change one or two of KBs TB daitai to the N1 down the road, but that's no matter. Thanks GBL!

Hi guys!![:)]

The B5N2 isn't in the upgrade path for the B5N1 are you sure the change is of no cost?
I'm building the B5N2 and B5N1 concurrently and when the Nakajima Hikari engines are spent have plans to convert it to something else.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Note that I haven't considered R&D yet.

Do you have any initial thoughts for your R&D? I hate the idea of those '44 and '45 factories sitting around doing nothing waiting complete the trek to 30 R&D . I subscribe to Daimian's theory that the sweet spot is thirty for R&D. I'd like the factories to be more dynamic instead of intial changes and let it play out. My plans are to divide R&D into two segments, pre 1/44 and post 1/44 IIRC I have 77 factories all researching airframes that come into play before 1/44 as airframes come online I'll move along the upgrade path (No damage , gotta love that) or to other airframes I want.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I just got a great idea from GBL's AAR! The B5N1 uses the Nakajima Hikari engine and there are 99 of those engines in the pool, with no use. The B5N2 factory starts at 0. I'm going to change it to B5N1 (no cost to change) and increase it to 50, as I had planned for the B5N2. Once all the engines are used, I'll convert it for free to the B5N2 and continue production. I may have to change one or two of KBs TB daitai to the N1 down the road, but that's no matter. Thanks GBL!

Not a bad idea, Mike. I usually will use up all the Nakajima Hikari engines by producing surplus B5N1s as Kamikazes later in the war. Your approach sounds good too.

Not my idea Mike - somebody suggested it to me in my AAR.

My idea and now I have trashed parts of 3 virtual Japan's economies(mine, GBL and Mike Solli's) - N1 indeed doesnt upgrade to N2. [:D] But they're still 50 half-the-price AC and so worth building, say, 10 or 15 a month, and you can later use that factory to build any plane you don't plan to R&D but want to build, such as the kamikaze-Tsurugi, transport Ki-49 or G4M or something.

[Mike Solli]

Nope, you didn't trash mine yet. I was going to convert the size 10 Nate factory to the C5M2 but maybe I'll convert it to the B5N1 for awhile. Gotta think about it for a bit.

[Mike Solli]

I think I'm going to convert the 10x Nate factory to ~12-15x B5N1 for awhile. I'd like to use up all 99 engines if possible. I'll convert to C5M2 when needed.

Anyway, I've been thinking a bit about merchant convoys. The initial plan used ~250 hulls, but that was done before we learned a lot about movement of resources and oil by the AI. We learned that everything produced and dropped off in Kyushu flows on its own to Honshu. That's frees up all the shipping initially used to move it to Honshu. Also, All the stuff produced and dropped off in Hokkaido flows to Hakodate. Because it all flows to Hakodate (must be downhill), all the stuff from Sakhalin can be dropped off at Sapporo, saving a lot of travel time and fuel. Here's the rough estimate I have so far:

[Mike Solli]

Once the beta becomes official, we'll use that. When it does, I'll try to get the excess resources to go to Pusan (not sure it works that way though). If it does, then I'll change the convoys around for C/M/K.

[Chickenboy]

Pretty sure that Shikoku resources do not need independent pickup, Mike. They are magically transported across the water, IIRC. Hey, it frees up a bunch of your shipping!

[Mike Solli]

I never checked that island. I'll do that first few turns of the game to confirm. Thanks. Turns out it really doesn't take much shipping to manage the Home Islands.