The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

M-M is referring to the time honored and proven tactic of Holistic Japan.[:)] You cannot rely upon one off attacks...Japan's units all have to work together.

But rather...plentiful night naval search, surface raiders, night aerial naval attacks, mines, midgets, CD and DP guns, on the beach art/eng/inf/aa/hq/inf, forts, daytime aerial search, heavily escorted attacks set to different ranges and altitudes, big targeted kb strike, hefty LRCAP traps, I and R boats, etc., etc., etc.

The base has to hold...to bleed the Allies...to engage their surface ships after they bombarded...to send the KB in around on a fish hook to devastate retreating ships and the line of supply...oilers/merchants ready to refuel after a flank run. To strike a depleted deathstar or ships landing reinforcements or supplies.

Reserve troops ready to be flown in (rarely if CVs are present) or fast transported in. Counter invasion.

Think what you could have accomplished at the Marianas if your ground troops held for 10 days. A month.

+1

read PzB's AAR ... required reading for all players. He illustrated most of these quire well in his game against Andy Mac ...

He also illustrated how to run out of supply as Japan quite well also.

A bit of critical evaluation is always needed with AAR'd games.

Pzb was talented at swinging amazing reverses on the Allies, but doing so actually forced him to concede his games on most (or all? it's been years) of the games. That was simply the price of him rushing the KB and shipping around all corners of the map.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

M-M is referring to the time honored and proven tactic of Holistic Japan.[:)] You cannot rely upon one off attacks...Japan's units all have to work together.

But rather...plentiful night naval search, surface raiders, night aerial naval attacks, mines, midgets, CD and DP guns, on the beach art/eng/inf/aa/hq/inf, forts, daytime aerial search, heavily escorted attacks set to different ranges and altitudes, big targeted kb strike, hefty LRCAP traps, I and R boats, etc., etc., etc.

The base has to hold...to bleed the Allies...to engage their surface ships after they bombarded...to send the KB in around on a fish hook to devastate retreating ships and the line of supply...oilers/merchants ready to refuel after a flank run. To strike a depleted deathstar or ships landing reinforcements or supplies.

Reserve troops ready to be flown in (rarely if CVs are present) or fast transported in. Counter invasion.

Think what you could have accomplished at the Marianas if your ground troops held for 10 days. A month.

+1

read PzB's AAR ... required reading for all players. He illustrated most of these quire well in his game against Andy Mac ...

He also illustrated how to run out of supply as Japan quite well also.

A bit of critical evaluation is always needed with AAR'd games.

Pzb was talented at swinging amazing reverses on the Allies, but doing so actually forced him to concede his games on most (or all? it's been years) of the games. That was simply the price of him rushing the KB and shipping around all corners of the map.

Please remember that at that time, the supply production was being "tweeked". One of the reasons for the AAR was to validate a number of economic changes. We can never know if his economy would have survived with the current settings, but that does not impact his strategic and tactical brilliance.

[el lobo]

PACIFIC Jul 5, 1943 Turn 576

I have more than an dozen Es here, more on the the way a la MM, and using settings a la Lowpe, I am going to get some practice.

[el lobo]

CHINA Jul 6, 1943 Turn 577

Finally China is fun again.

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Ground combat at Chengtu (75,41)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 186670 troops, 1820 guns, 1361 vehicles, Assault Value = 6934

Defending force 87538 troops, 77 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2669

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 0

Japanese adjusted assault: 5428

Allied adjusted defense: 1699

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Chengtu !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
26610 casualties reported
Squads: 100 destroyed, 2957 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 208 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 217 disabled
Guns lost 272 (2 destroyed, 270 disabled)
Vehicles lost 116 (1 destroyed, 115 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
53399 casualties reported
Squads: 3787 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 3486 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 18 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 77 (77 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 34

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
Finally China is fun again

Make the most of the month before all those LCUs be back in Chungking.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: el lobo
Finally China is fun again

Make the most of the month before all those LCUs be back in Chungking.

+1

[adarbrauner]

Have the Allied fleet escaped the Marianas already? [:(][:(]

That was your golden occasion to drive a decisive battle on favorable terms...

You can still do a lot.

Bombard the occupied Marianas, attack the remaining shipping there... waiting for the expected reinforcements to come back.

Even if Rio is enjoying of air land based air support now there, your numbers are still enough to muster an offensive.


You could even plan for counter invasion of the occupied islands.

That's not the end of the tale there!

[PaxMondo]

I would tend to disagree ... now that he has a forward sub base (Guam) and active air fields, Marianas are a trap for you. venturing there will only prove more costly to you than he ... and he took multiple islands, so very difficult to contemplate any form of reaction counter attack. I would need 24 ID's (6 per island roughly) to go back with the entire Kaigun and the entire IJ air forces. Losses would be high in doing so ...

[adarbrauner]

I would consider at least the counter invasion of one of the islands, to start with. All the Kaigun present? Well, as default. He's coming back soon , seemingly.

Sub threat, a pain, but reciprocal. And, we also could and should have our ASW squadrons and flottillas roaming and make feeling their impact around.

To retrench just so and trailing after his initiative, for me is not a likely option at this stage of the war.

I think that a hard and protracted air campaign won't be sustained easily by Rio there, and that we still hold logistical advantages in an air attrition engagement in the Marianas situation being, as preparation to a possible counter invasion - of one island at least - and a major naval clash is more than ever looming in the area.

So many variables... the strength and size of air bases around, Truk, Babeldaob, Bonins, Pagan and remaining Marianas.

Mine warfare was somehow underplayed by El Lobo I think, in previous round.

That was only the first round! Rio has to keep the ring for some many more, in following few months, granted that Lobo takes up the challenge.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo



It doesn't confirm the guess about the fighter loads, as at this point having your CVE's overstocked with fighters for re-stocking the CV's would be prudent. But, he is getting a lot of advice. he has a sharp edge in number of posts and I have noted some very good player names there.

Just remember; every tactic in the game has a counter. In this aspect, it is all about intel. You need to consider what he might do, how you would counter, AND how will you detect what tactic he is using so that you employ the correct counter.

If you check my AAR with Jocke, you can see how I countered an invasion force comprised of a heavily fighter based Carrier escort with surprisingly light Japanese forces. It can be done! Planning and Recon! Page 106 (shameless plug[;)])

Not shameless at all. He needs your references ... you're about the only PBEM consultant he has against the +8 that Rio has in his thread.
I don't have as much advice about tactics as AI and PBEM really differ there.

You raise a good point Pax. I have read both AARs in this game, which is why I have not posted anything in either AAR. In general, this game and the two AARs demonstrates that allied AARs receive much more care and attention from the AFBs than Japanese-side AARs receive from those familiar with the Japanese position. For Japanese players, you and Lowpe are about the only ones who make a habit of chiming in with helpful tips and advice.

[PaxMondo]

I don't read the other one, but I can see who is posting ... and yes, there are far more AFB's on the forum ....

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Have the Allied fleet escaped the Marianas already? [:(][:(]

That was your golden occasion to drive a decisive battle on favorable terms...

You can still do a lot.

This is probably a good time to discuss a little as to what is going on here.

Yes, the Allied fleet has "escaped." My sub recon has not recovered sufficiently to get a definitive read, but it appears that it has "escaped" all the way back to Pearl.

He has left a lot of PT boats there and some ASW. No subs detected.

Also no air which makes sense as he can not protect it from sea bombardments.

Bombard the occupied Marianas, attack the remaining shipping there... waiting for the expected reinforcements to come back.

Even if Rio is enjoying of air land based air support now there, your numbers are still enough to muster an offensive.

I have bombarded once and will again occasionally if I think I can sink a few more ships but will not waste a lot of supplies doing so.

As mentioned above, he has no air there for now.

You could even plan for counter invasion of the occupied islands.

I agree with Pax on this one, see below.

That's not the end of the tale there!

* laughing * That is the understatement of the day. [:)] [:)]

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ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I would tend to disagree ... now that he has a forward sub base (Guam) and active air fields, Marianas are a trap for you. venturing there will only prove more costly to you than he ... and he took multiple islands, so very difficult to contemplate any form of reaction counter attack. I would need 24 ID's (6 per island roughly) to go back with the entire Kaigun and the entire IJ air forces. Losses would be high in doing so ...

I agree with you for the reasons you state and a couple of others.

I am not questioning your experience in the least, but frankly, I don't think even twenty-four IDs would do it. He has more than 3K AV on Guam alone, total support, and if I know Rio, more supplies than I have in Tokyo.

I have seven IDs, no Armor, and very little Artillery. I do have a lot of Engineers though. [:)]

--------------------------

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

I would consider at least the counter invasion of one of the islands, to start with. All the Kaigun present? Well, as default. He's coming back soon , seemingly.

If, and I don't, but if I had enough forces to re-take all of the islands, I would, simply because Rio has everything he has outside of Burma here, and to destroy all of that would be a game changer.

But taking one island would serve little purpose. I would eventually lose the forces or have them imprisoned there.

Sub threat, a pain, but reciprocal. And, we also could and should have our ASW squadrons and flottillas roaming and make feeling their impact around.

The sub threat is more than a pain. I have three carriers and two BBs in the yard via subs. The carriers will be back in two weeks, six weeks and five months and the BBs are out for one and four months.

And, it is not reciprocal. When he brings his subs there, he brings them all. He has more subs than I have ASW ships and a/c combined, and, Japanese ASW is practicality useless, IMO.

Mine warfare was somehow underplayed by El Lobo I think, in previous round.

True. I am working on that, but still don't know how to make midgets.

............, granted that Lobo takes up the challenge.

That I will be doing. More on that later.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
You raise a good point Pax. I have read both AARs in this game, which is why I have not posted anything in either AAR. In general, this game and the two AARs demonstrates that allied AARs receive much more care and attention from the AFBs than Japanese-side AARs receive from those familiar with the Japanese position. For Japanese players, you and Lowpe are about the only ones who make a habit of chiming in with helpful tips and advice.

Welcome Aurorus. You make a good point yourself.

[el lobo]

PACIFIC Jul 9, 1943 Turn 580

Not quite what I wanted. Need a better way to kill PTs.

[PaxMondo]

PT's - in these numbers are hard to kill. Ideally, you would want Radar equipped DD's, but those you don't have. E's can work, BUT you need more numbers and you need good ship EXP and better leader skills than you are likely to get. This means committing DD's. SCTF's of 5-6 DD's each, multiply TF's. All high night exp. All good leaders. plan to lose 1 - 2 DD's, meaning on a VP basis a wash, but for you a loss. So, I wouldn't do it unless it is part of a bigger plan ...

[Bif1961]

I have a house rule that you can only have 6 times current Port level for PT boats. Some abuse use of PT boats to waste the ammo of the opponents Bombardment TFs. If you have an AG you can have more than 6 per Port level. I am sure those things can be worked out before the game begins between players. I find 6 times Port level works out reasonably well.

[Lowpe]

Ok, no air....and you have bases and dots nearbye?

What do you have that can strafe? Fighters, Nicks, ...run them out of the bases you have nearbye at 1000 feet naval strike. Make sure you have lots of naval search too. Even Jakes flying at 2-4K can take out PT boats....mass them. Jills down low drop two bombs and will work at 3K.

YOu can also use the KB.. Judy and Jills will attack PT boats if detection is good...and the sub threat has lessened.

Kill those PT boats now!!!!!

Sub dropped mines....

Edit: with no air power...use remain in station and run in tons of destroyers, use your destroyer squadrons at night, and then have CLs and E run in during the day.

You will never have another opportunity like this!!!!!!![:)]

[Lowpe]

I agree with Pax about reconquista...very hard now, very, very difficult.

Get your artillery out of China to the degree you can. Make a decision on Chungking...closed and isolated and starving, or take it.

You have a pressing need for your troops to be elsewhere. Think about pulling the plug on the SRA...figure you only need enough fuel and oil to see Jan 1945.

Build several size 8 and 9 runways and have them overlap with bases in the rear behind the front lines too. Any of your front line air fields need mines, cd guns or at least dp guns. Distribute overlapping HQa...

A world map picture would be nice...from the Marianas the Allies can really go in a lot of directions...for me it was to Hokkaido and it sucked.[:(]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
...for me it was to Hokkaido and it sucked.[:(]

You cannot lose Hokkaido ... or Korea. Game over in quick order when you do and little fun during that period.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

PT's - in these numbers are hard to kill. Ideally, you would want Radar equipped DD's, but those you don't have.

Pax.

I have twelve of these. Is this radar good enough?