The question to ask about The Italians

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

More lies to hide your total lack of knowledge....

So we were talking about Spain at this point and indeed you said:

This is ridiculous. It's obvious that a rail line can handle a vast amount of supplies. More than enough for the action required in Spain. Remember, Spain has a tiny army. That means a tiny amount of combat needed to eliminate them.

Every urban area has marshalling yards where trains can be held while unloaded. Of course such locations would be behind front lines.

Which part of that comment was you not referring to the Spanish rail system being able to more than handle anything required by the Germans? Reprehensible behaviour on your part Lemay.

Did I really need to state that the Spanish lines would have to be repaired - just as they have to be in every military campaign?!?! And, even in your quote above, I still do not mention the Spanish rail system. The French rail system will get the supplies to the rail head at the border and then trucks can deliver the supplies the rest of the way.

warspite1

Thank-you for this post. If you ever try and suggest that you have the moral high ground in ANY debate I will have this to hand.

Lets be completely clear here. You said:

"I never mentioned the Spanish rail system".

I said that was untrue and that you did. To evidence this I provide a post from you that says:

"It's obvious that a rail line can handle a vast amount of supplies. More than enough for the action required in Spain. Remember, Spain has a tiny army. That means a tiny amount of combat needed to eliminate them".

And how do you respond to that?

"I still do not mention the Spanish rail system".

So in saying that a rail line can handle vast amount of supplies and that it can supply more than enough for the Spanish campaign, you would have us believe that you were not suggesting that the Spanish rail system could supply the Germans with all it needed???? But that was the whole point of you providing that irrelevant Wiki article on US railroads in the 21st Century - because you were seeking to prove that the Germans could use the Spanish rail network.

I am surprised you allowed yourself to type this response out. Not your finest hour Lemay. Pretty shocking to be honest - along with the post about the Axis allies, you've really shown your level here. You are so desperate to be right over every single point, that you've resorted to this....

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You also effectively state the US army team that wrote a study of the Balkan Campaign are a bunch of incompetents...

You're interpretation of an out of context snippet is what is in question.

...who don't have the skills you do in being able to do a google map search [8|] and you've 'proved' supply was possible from Athens because:

a) you've produced maps with a lot of arrows of German forces heading south.....

Yep. If the Germans could do it why couldn't the Greeks?

b) you've produced modern day maps showing roads between Athens and Albania.

Again, yes. And the map with the arrows on it follow those roads.

But as ever, in your simplistic and myopic view, you've given no consideration to the distance from Athens to Albania (compared to Salonika to Albania) and whether supply considerations could also have been affected by availability of trucks or rail lines. Do you know the Greek logistical situation in 1940? Has that even crossed your mind? There were 14 divisions of the 1st Greek Army to supply. That is a lot of provisions daily. But you see that sort of detail is just unimportant to you. So long as you prove there was a road between Athens and Albania in 2020 then all other considerations - including the conclusions of the US Army - are simply not worth considering.

About 500km or so. Well within truck supply distance. And there was a rail line to the north for part of the way.

warspite1

We've been here so many times. Listen, you want me to believe you - a man who thinks the distance a truck can travel proves the answer to everything, who hasn't got a clue about the Greek supply situation, the state of the railway, the number of trucks available or anything else, over the professionals of the US Army.

I'm going for the professionals.

I'm going to believe my lying eyes instead of your out of context snippet.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Once again, and I repeat, why would the Spanish ask the British to leave before the war is won? If the war isn't won then Spain isn't going to be free and the Government in Exile isn't going home to Madrid anytime soon.

So let's be clear:

- Did Denmark refuse the British and Americans use of Iceland because they never thought they would be able to evict them?
- Did Greece refuse the British the use of Crete because they never thought they would be able to evict them?

What is so special about Spain (apart from the fact you've said something and can't ever be wrong)? Please try and think things through when responding and provide a well constructed, thought out response as to what the motivations would be.

For the nth time: Franco is a fascist dictator. He is going to be suspicious of the Allies' attitude towards him. If he makes a Vichy Spain he won't want the Allies in his colonies.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




Are you saying that mountains have been ground to flatland since WWII? Otherwise, that map has to be pretty telling. Clearly there are paths around the mountains.

warspite1

Well the German logistics guys said what they said (as per the above). Now, I have a choice. I can believe what the German planners stated in their plans for Spain

OR

I can believe a person who relies on google maps to tell him more than professional German Army planners and logistics guys who conducted numerous reconnaissance and intelligence missions inside Spain during the negotiations.

Mmmmmmm..... now which shall I choose????

Again, Spain would not be under German control in that scenario. That would limit what could be done.

I'll ask again: Are you using that study to insist that Spanish rail CAN'T be repaired? That Spanish roads CAN'T be used? Are we to disbelieve our lying eyes that the mountains in Spain have plenty of space around them?

warspite1

Re bold: Lemay, why would you ask such absurd questions? Of course I'm not. But I guess you need this sort of deflection at present.

As for the German planners comments, yes I take their word for it. I also take Piteas' (a Spaniard) comments. I've never been there and nor, I suspect, have you. But as usual you don't believe what you don't want to believe regardless of who tells you, so whatever.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Have you ever read what Hitler thought of Franco for turning him down? Your absurd notion that Franco is going to live through this does you no favours. The only chance that Franco lives is, having made the choice to fight the Germans, he sees it through. He could survive by setting up a Government in Exile from the Canaries or he could choose to stay with the Spanish people and fight the invader to the last - and he would not allow himself to be captured. Would he take the option you've suggested? Well anything is possible in theory isn't it? But no, if one thinks about it for more than a couple of minutes its really not very likely is it? [8|]

He's in far greater danger of being captured and executed if he DOESN'T make a deal. A favorable deal keeps him out of Hitler's hands.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




You're interpretation of an out of context snippet is what is in question.



Yep. If the Germans could do it why couldn't the Greeks?



Again, yes. And the map with the arrows on it follow those roads.



About 500km or so. Well within truck supply distance. And there was a rail line to the north for part of the way.

warspite1

We've been here so many times. Listen, you want me to believe you - a man who thinks the distance a truck can travel proves the answer to everything, who hasn't got a clue about the Greek supply situation, the state of the railway, the number of trucks available or anything else, over the professionals of the US Army.

I'm going for the professionals.

I'm going to believe my lying eyes instead of your out of context snippet.

warspite1

Thank-you for that grown up comment.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


warspite1

Well the German logistics guys said what they said (as per the above). Now, I have a choice. I can believe what the German planners stated in their plans for Spain

OR

I can believe a person who relies on google maps to tell him more than professional German Army planners and logistics guys.

Mmmmmmm..... now which shall I choose????

Remember, he is using modern maps and not maps from 1940. Even the Spanish did not have good maps for their own country.

What difference does it make when a PHYSICAL map is made?! Has the geography of Spain changed since 1940?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Once again, and I repeat, why would the Spanish ask the British to leave before the war is won? If the war isn't won then Spain isn't going to be free and the Government in Exile isn't going home to Madrid anytime soon.

So let's be clear:

- Did Denmark refuse the British and Americans use of Iceland because they never thought they would be able to evict them?
- Did Greece refuse the British the use of Crete because they never thought they would be able to evict them?

What is so special about Spain (apart from the fact you've said something and can't ever be wrong)? Please try and think things through when responding and provide a well constructed, thought out response as to what the motivations would be.

For the nth time: Franco is a fascist dictator. He is going to be suspicious of the Allies' attitude towards him.

warspite1

What the....? And what was Metaxas - a liberal democrat? [8|]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Have you ever read what Hitler thought of Franco for turning him down? Your absurd notion that Franco is going to live through this does you no favours. The only chance that Franco lives is, having made the choice to fight the Germans, he sees it through. He could survive by setting up a Government in Exile from the Canaries or he could choose to stay with the Spanish people and fight the invader to the last - and he would not allow himself to be captured. Would he take the option you've suggested? Well anything is possible in theory isn't it? But no, if one thinks about it for more than a couple of minutes its really not very likely is it? [8|]

He's in far greater danger of being captured and executed if he DOESN'T make a deal. A favorable deal keeps him out of Hitler's hands.

warspite1

Once Upon a Time......

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

....and you re-appear on the thread just to take us right back to where we started....[8|]

If, if, if..... and I've asked you to make a proper case, and you not only refuse to do so, but what little effort you have put in has been largely based on incorrect information, questionable - and in some cases frankly bizarre - assumptions, and a refusal to believe the professionals of the German army (though you believe them when it suits you).

Re the bit in bold, once again a complete lie that really shows you and your debating style and the way you have conducted this debate. Now, if I am wrong and you are right, please provide the post that suggests I've said that they are anything like supermen and/or the Germans can't beat them and/or they will hold the Germans up for an inordinate length of time. In other words Lemay, put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up because I am fed up with you mis-representing what I say. First request.

The rate you have the German army going through supply trucks, oil and ammunition just to take Spain...

Supermen!

Reality: The supply cost of taking Spain will be directly proportionate to the size and quality of the Spanish Army. To review: Tiny and puny. The supply costs will be light because of this.

warspite1

The problems with supply will not just relate to beating the Spanish army. Remember the Germans have to take Gibraltar at the end of a very long and precarious supply chain - after all that is the purpose of this adventure.

However, re the bit in bold, this still stands as once again you've made a completely untrue statement that really shows you and your debating style and the way you have conducted this debate. Now, if I am wrong and you are right, please provide the post that suggests I've said that they are anything like supermen and/or the Germans can't beat them and/or they will hold the Germans up for an inordinate length of time. In other words Lemay, put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up because I am fed up with you mis-representing what I say. Second request.

My part in bold.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay






Supermen!

Reality: The supply cost of taking Spain will be directly proportionate to the size and quality of the Spanish Army. To review: Tiny and puny. The supply costs will be light because of this.

warspite1

The problems with supply will not just relate to beating the Spanish army. Remember the Germans have to take Gibraltar at the end of a very long and precarious supply chain - after all that is the purpose of this adventure.

However, re the bit in bold, this still stands as once again you've made a completely untrue statement that really shows you and your debating style and the way you have conducted this debate. Now, if I am wrong and you are right, please provide the post that suggests I've said that they are anything like supermen and/or the Germans can't beat them and/or they will hold the Germans up for an inordinate length of time. In other words Lemay, put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up because I am fed up with you mis-representing what I say. Second request.

My part in bold.

warspite1

The problems with supply will not just relate to beating the Spanish army. Remember the Germans have to take Gibraltar at the end of a very long and precarious supply chain - after all that is the purpose of this adventure.

However, re the bit in bold, this still stands as once again you've made a completely untrue statement that really shows you and your debating style and the way you have conducted this debate. Now, if I am wrong and you are right, please provide the post that suggests I've said that they are anything like supermen and/or the Germans can't beat them and/or they will hold the Germans up for an inordinate length of time. In other words Lemay, put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up because I am fed up with you mis-representing what I say. Third request.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I've told you exactly the source of the 800, I've told you the publication and the primary source - and you still say that. The reassessment following France 1940?? So you don't understand that May/June 1940 is before November 1940?

Of course its only some of the 800. Who said otherwise?? It's you that said all 800 would only be needed for Gibraltar.

So you don't believe any primary sources now? You are looking increasingly desperate in a bid to cover up for your lack of knowledge. Well done Lemay. Well done indeed.

Let's take it at it's face value: Clearly, the Germans thought they had sufficient shells and etc. for the Gibraltar operation. And, for sure, Gibraltar is worth it! The payback for taking it would be huge in the Desert War.

It's the conquest of Spain that is new. And that army remains tiny and low quality.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




Because those democracies are never going to put him back in power.

How about the dictatorships?

What dictatorships are going to be controlling Spain if the Allies win?

A Spanish one. The Free Spanish one since Franco would flee Spain.

But you state that the United States of America would never put a Free Spanish government back into power if it conquered Spain? What would the United States of America do? Annex Spain? [8|]

That's exactly what they would install: A democracy. That leaves Franco out in the cold.

The United States of America would never install a democracy - it is just too chaotic. The United Stated has supported dictators and dictatorships before.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I've told you exactly the source of the 800, I've told you the publication and the primary source - and you still say that. The reassessment following France 1940?? So you don't understand that May/June 1940 is before November 1940?

Of course its only some of the 800. Who said otherwise?? It's you that said all 800 would only be needed for Gibraltar.

So you don't believe any primary sources now? You are looking increasingly desperate in a bid to cover up for your lack of knowledge. Well done Lemay. Well done indeed.

Let's take it at it's face value

warspite1

So at least, after I don't know how long, you admit you are happy to take German primary source material at face value? That's incredibly good of you.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




And if they possess Gibraltar, Suez, and the Turkish border with the Russians they will be in a much better position.

The whole thing comes down to just how tough the Spanish and Turkish operations are going to be. You're trying to build them up into supermen. They aren't.

warspite1

....and you re-appear on the thread just to take us right back to where we started....[8|]

If, if, if..... and I've asked you to make a proper case, and you not only refuse to do so, but what little effort you have put in has been largely based on incorrect information, questionable - and in some cases frankly bizarre - assumptions, and a refusal to believe the professionals of the German army (though you believe them when it suits you).

Re the bit in bold, once again a complete lie that really shows you and your debating style and the way you have conducted this debate. Now, if I am wrong and you are right, please provide the post that suggests I've said that they are anything like supermen and/or the Germans can't beat them and/or they will hold the Germans up for an inordinate length of time. In other words Lemay, put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up because I am fed up with you mis-representing what I say. First request.

The rate you have the German army going through supply trucks, oil and ammunition just to take Spain...

Supermen!

Reality: The supply cost of taking Spain will be directly proportionate to the size and quality of the Spanish Army. To review: Tiny and puny. The supply costs will be light because of this.

The cost of repairing infrastructure will be high, the cost of moving the supplies will be high. You are also forgetting the guerillas in Spain plus the Spanish Maquis destroying the infrastructure in Occupied France.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Once again, and I repeat, why would the Spanish ask the British to leave before the war is won? If the war isn't won then Spain isn't going to be free and the Government in Exile isn't going home to Madrid anytime soon.

So let's be clear:

- Did Denmark refuse the British and Americans use of Iceland because they never thought they would be able to evict them?
- Did Greece refuse the British the use of Crete because they never thought they would be able to evict them?

What is so special about Spain (apart from the fact you've said something and can't ever be wrong)? Please try and think things through when responding and provide a well constructed, thought out response as to what the motivations would be.

For the nth time: Franco is a fascist dictator. He is going to be suspicious of the Allies' attitude towards him.

warspite1

What the....? And what was Metaxas - a liberal democrat? [8|]

The US was supporting Franco during the Spanish Civil War and continued to assist his government.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Remember, he is using modern maps and not maps from 1940. Even the Spanish did not have good maps for their own country.

What difference does it make when a PHYSICAL map is made?! Has the geography of Spain changed since 1940?

The road network sure changed has with new roads. Just like in every country, new roads in new places. Why not go back to 1940 and take I10, I45, and/or I69 out of Houston, Texas, USA?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I've told you exactly the source of the 800, I've told you the publication and the primary source - and you still say that. The reassessment following France 1940?? So you don't understand that May/June 1940 is before November 1940?

Of course its only some of the 800. Who said otherwise?? It's you that said all 800 would only be needed for Gibraltar.

So you don't believe any primary sources now? You are looking increasingly desperate in a bid to cover up for your lack of knowledge. Well done Lemay. Well done indeed.

Let's take it at it's face value: Clearly, the Germans thought they had sufficient shells and etc. for the Gibraltar operation. And, for sure, Gibraltar is worth it! The payback for taking it would be huge in the Desert War.

It's the conquest of Spain that is new. And that army remains tiny and low quality.

Actually, the Germans were running out of artillery shells, much like in 1914.

The Spanish Army was full of veterans. It had some modern equipment - including items like the MG34. Since it had downsized, there was more equipment available plus trained people who could have easily rejoined the military. Plus the equipment from the Republican Army when it surrendered and reunified Spain. The Air Force also had trained, experienced pilots plus the Bf-109.

[UP844]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
What the....? And what was Metaxas - a liberal democrat?

The book RFalvo69 mentioned about the Greece affair starts with "After preaching for years about the need to fight against the decadent Democratic, Jewish Plutocracies, choose a fellow dictatorship as the victim of his own blitzkried"

As for the Allies feelings toward Franco, the Coalition included a series of nice individuals, from Stalin to Trujillo, so I think their reaction to a German invasion would be something like this:

ORIGINAL: Winston Churchill
If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: UP844

ORIGINAL: warspite1
What the....? And what was Metaxas - a liberal democrat?

The book RFalvo69 mentioned about the Greece affair starts with "After preaching for years about the need to fight against the decadent Democratic, Jewish Plutocracies, choose a fellow dictatorship as the victim of his own blitzkried"

As for the Allies feelings toward Franco, the Coalition included a series of nice individuals, from Stalin to Trujillo, so I think their reaction to a German invasion would be something like this:

ORIGINAL: Winston Churchill
If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.

warspite1

I've been a big supporter of Hollow Legions on these forums over the years. A stonkingly good read [&o]