Admirals Edition Naval Thread

[PzB74]

To many pages to read through....so can someone brief me regarding ship construction
after the historical VJ Day?

The Allied - Japanese post war production schedule will be implemented I hope?

In my stock game that's getting close to 1946 I've run out of ships to produce a long time
ago and is desperately short of destroyers while all my yards are idle.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: herwin

Approximately 30% of the population of Hawaii in December 1941 were Japanese citizens. There were 160,000 persons in Hawaii of Japanese origin in 1941 (40% of the population and the largest racial group). 120000 were American citizens by birth in Hawaii. 113,000 were Japanese citizens--40,000 Japanese immigrants and 73,000 with dual citizenship.

There were approximately 120,000 persons interned on the West Coast, but because the criterion for internment was any degree of Japanese ancestry (white Japanese subjects like my great grandfather were not interned), it's clear that the motivation was racial prejudice rather than military necessity. Given the large percentage of Japanese in the Hawaiian population, interning more than the small minority who were actively supporting the Japanese Empire was not considered feasible or desirable. At the end of 1944, SCOTUS held that detainment of loyal citizens was unconstitutional, and the internment policy was immediately abandoned.

Well looking back through the eyes of historians, you do get the impression that we interned massive numbers of people with Japanese ancestory. And those of German ancestory were not interned to that degree, so it was certainly a product of fear and racial prejudice. And many of those interned considered themselves American and not Japanese. The whole internment program was a bad policy.

How is this discussion relevant to the AE Naval Thread?

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: PzB

To many pages to read through....so can someone brief me regarding ship construction
after the historical VJ Day?

The Allied - Japanese post war production schedule will be implemented I hope?

In my stock game that's getting close to 1946 I've run out of ships to produce a long time
ago and is desperately short of destroyers while all my yards are idle.

What post war Jap production schedule would that be? Aside from a gajillion mini subs, there wasn't one.

[PzB74]

A gross ignoramus as usual Terminus [;)]

140 Matsu class destroyers were planned, 58 ordered and if Japan had time and resources they
would have continued coming of the slips in 45-46.

Of course Allies should receive planned 45-46 reinforcements as well. Even more important for Japan
if there is to be any reason to have a scenario that spans into 1946.


Overall Statistics for class

142 ships total planned for class.

80 never ordered.
11 of the standard units ordered but cancelled before laid down.
10 of the modified units ordered but cancelled before laid down.

41 units built.
(17 standard / 24 modified)

8 sunk in combat.
(2 additional ships were combat losses but later raised and scrapped and 2 others were damaged beyond
repair in combat and later scrapped)

16 units scrapped.
(including the 4 mentioned above)

1 wrecked, total loss.
(after the war in Chinese custody)

2 sunk as targets.

9 scrapped incomplete in various stages of construction.

5 fate unknown.
(4 in Russian custody and 1 in Chinese custody, it is likely all have been scrapped by now)

0 remaining.


Matsu Class Destroyers Class Overview

Dimensions, Machinery and Performance

Length: 328' Engines: 2 x Geared turbines
Beam: 30' 6" Boilers: N/A
Draft: 10' 9" (modified 11') Shafts: 2
Displacement: 1,262 std. / 1,530 full
SHP: 19,000
Modified 1,289 std. / 1,557 full Speed: 28
Crew: Aprox. 200 Range: 4,680 NM @ 16 knots

Armament As Built
Number Carried Type Arrangement Maximum Range / Ceiling
3 5"/40 (12.7cm) DP
Single mount forward
Twin mount aft

16,185 yards @ 45° (9.1 miles)
AA ceiling 30,840' @ 75°

24 25mm/60 (1") 4 triple mounts
12 single mounts

8,200 yards (4.6 miles) @ 50°
AA ceiling 18,040' @ 85°
(max effective 9,843')

4 24" torpedo tubes Quadruple launcher Max. depending on type
43,700 yards (24 miles)
Speed 50 knots 1,080 lb. warhead

36 Depth Charges
(on standard units)

60 Depth charges
(on modified units)

Name Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Matsu Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

Feb. 3, 1944 Apr. 28, 1944 N/A
Fate
Sunk Aug. 4, 1944 by USS Cogswell DD-651, USS Ingersoll DD-652 and
USS Knapp DD-653 after being damaged by US Aircraft from TG 58.1.

Location: North Pacific 50 miles NW of Chichi Jima, Bonin Islands.
(27.40N - 141.48E)

Six survived the sinking but one died of his wounds.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Momo Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

Mar. 25, 1944 June 10, 1944 N/A
Fate
Sunk Dec. 15, 1944 by USS Hawkbill SS-366 (torpedo)

Location: South China Sea 140 miles WSW Cape Boliano, Luzon, Philippines.
(16.00N - 117.39E)

92 crewmen killed, unknown number of survivors.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Take Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Mar. 28, 1944 June 16, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Maizuru, transferred to the UK at Singapore July 16, 1947,
and scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Ume Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

Apr. 24, 1944 June 28, 1944 N/A
Fate
Sunk Jan. 31, 1945 by USAAF B-25's and P-38's from the 14th Air Force.

Location: South China Sea 20 miles S of Formosa (Taiwan). (22.30N - 120E)

77 crewmen killed, unknown number of survivors picked up by Shiokaze.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kuwa Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

May 25, 1944 July 25, 1944 N/A
Fate
Sunk Dec. 3, 1944 by USS Allen M. Sumner DD-692, USS Cooper DD-695 and
USS Moale DD-693.

Location: Ormoc Bay, Leyte, Philippines.

Unknown number of casualties or survivors.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kiri Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

May 27, 1944 Aug. 14, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1944.
Transferred to Russia July 29, 1947, fate unknown.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Maki Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

June 10, 1944 Aug. 10, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure Aug. 1945. Transferred to the UK on Aug. 14, 1947 at
Singapore and scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Momi Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

June 16, 1944 Sept. 7, 1944 N/A
Fate
Sunk Jan. 5, 1945 by US Aircraft from TF-77.4 (torpedo)

Location: South China Sea 45 miles WSW of Manila, Philippines.

No survivors.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Sugi Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

July 3, 1944 Aug. 25, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1947. Transferred to China July 31, 1947 and
renamed Hwei Yang. Wrecked in 1957.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Hinoki Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

July 4, 1944 Sept. 30, 1944 N/A
Fate
Sunk by USS Charles Ausburne DD-570, USS Braine DD-630, USS Shaw DD-373
and USS Russell DD-414.

Location: South China Sea 100 miles W of Manila, Philippines. (14.30N - 119.30E)

No survivors.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kaede Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

July 25, 1944 Oct. 30, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1945. Transferred to China July 6, 1947 and renamed
Hen Yang. Later scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kaya Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

July 30, 1944 Sept. 30, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1944. Transferred to Russia July 29, 1947,
fate unknown.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kashi Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

Aug. 13, 1944 Sept. 30, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1945. Transferred to the USA Aug. 7, 1947.
Scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Sakura Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Sept. 6, 1944 Nov. 25, 1944 N/A
Fate
Sunk by mine July 11, 1945.

Location: Osaka Harbor, Japan. (34.36N - 135.28E)

130 crewmen killed.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Keyaki Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Sept. 30, 1944 Dec. 15, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Yokosuka in Aug. 1945. Transferred to the USA July 5, 1947.
Sunk as target off Yokosuka.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Tsubaki Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

Sept. 30, 1944 Nov. 30, 1944 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1944.
Scrapped at Kure July 1948.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Nara Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

Oct. 12, 1944 Nov. 26, 1944 N/A
Fate
Scrapped at Shimonoseki, Japan in July 1948.
(Nara hit a mine on June 30, 1944 6 miles WSW of Shimonoseki and had to be
towed to Moji. The ship remained there until the end of the war.)

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Tachibana (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Oct. 14, 1944 Jan. 20, 1945 N/A
Fate
Sunk July 14, 1945 by US Aircraft from TF-38.

Location: Hakodate Bay, Hokkaido, Japan (41.48N - 141.41E)

135 crewmen killed.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Tsuta (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Nov. 2, 1944 Feb. 8, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1945. Transferred to China and renamed Hua Yang.
Later scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Nire (M) Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

Nov. 25, 1944 Jan. 31, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1945. Scrapped at Kure in Apr. 1948.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Yanagi (M) Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

Nov. 25, 1944 Jan. 18, 1945 N/A
Fate
Scrapped at Ominato, Japan in Apr. 1947.
(Yanagi was severely damaged by US aircraft on July 14, 1945 in the Tsugaru Strait
near Ashizaki, Japan and had to be towed to Ominato for repair. While at Ominato
the ship was damaged in an air raid on Aug. 9, 1945 and never saw service again.)

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Hagi (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Nov. 27, 1944 Mar. 1, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1945. Transferred to the UK on July 16, 1947.
Scrapped at Singapore.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kaki (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Dec. 11, 1944 Mar. 5, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Maizuru in Aug. 1945. Transferred to the USA on July 4, 1947.
Scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Sumire (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Dec. 27, 1944 Mar. 26, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Maizuru in Aug. 1945. Transferred to the UK Aug. 20, 1947
at Singapore. Sunk as target off Stonecutters Island near Singapore.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Shii (M) Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

Jan. 13, 1945 Mar. 13, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1945. Transferred to Russia July 5, 1947.
Fate unknown.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Nashi (M)
(Later Wakaba DE-261) Kawasaki Jyuko Co.
Kobe, Japan

Jan. 17, 1945 Mar. 15, 1945 N/A
Fate
Scrapped in 1972.
(Sunk by US aircraft July 28, 1945 at Kure. Raised in 1954 and repaired at Kure.
Recommissioned into the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force as Wakaba. The
only ship of the Imperial Navy to serve with the JMSDF.)

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kusunoki (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Jan. 18, 1945 Apr. 28, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Maizuru in Aug. 1945. Transferred to the UK at Singapore
July 16, 1947. Later scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Enoki (M) Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

Jan. 27, 1945 Mar. 31, 1945 N/A
Fate
Sunk June 26, 1945 by a mine. (Aft magazine exploded and sank in shallow water.)

Location: Obama Bay 22 miles east of Maizuru, Japan. (35.28N - 135.44E)
*Position given is slightly incorrect.

Unknown number of casualties or survivors.

Raised and scrapped in 1948.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Hatsuzakura (M)
(ex Sutsuki) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

Feb. 10, 1945 May 28, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Yokosuka in Aug. 1945. Transferred to Russia July 29, 1947 and
renamed TSL-24. Fate unknown.


Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kaba (M) Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

Feb. 27, 1945 May 29, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Kure in Aug. 1945. Transferred to the USA Aug. 4, 1947.
Later scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Odake (M) Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

Mar. 10, 1945 May 15, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Maizuru in Aug. 1945. Transferred to the USA July 4, 1947.
Later scrapped.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Hatsuyume (M) Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

Apr. 25, 1945 June 18, 1945 N/A
Fate
Surrendered at Maizuru in Aug. 1945. Transferred to China July 6, 1947 and
renamed Hsin Yang. Fate unknown.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Azusa (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

N/A N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in March 1945 and scrapped on the ways.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Hishi (M) Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

N/A N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in March 1945 and scrapped on the ways.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Kuzu (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

N/A N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in March 1945 and scrapped on the ways.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Sakaki (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

N/A N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in March 1945 and scrapped on the ways.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Wakazakura (M) Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

N/A N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in March 1945 and scrapped on the ways.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Katsura (M) Fujinagata Zosensho
Osaka, Japan

June 23, 1945 N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in June 1945. Scrapped between 1946-48.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Tochi (M) Maizuru Navy Yard
Maizuru, Japan

N/A N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in June 1945. Scrapped between 1946-48.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Yadake (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

N/A N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in June 1945. Scrapped between 1946-48.

Builder Launched Commissioned Decommissioned
Yaezakura (M) Yokosuka Navy Yard
Yokosuka, Japan

N/A N/A N/A
Fate
Construction cancelled in June 1945. Scrapped between 1946-48.

[PzB74]

Of the Akizuku class 16 units were planned:
12 units built, 6 sunk in combat, 6 scrapped, 4 canceled.

Of the Shimakaze 17 ships were planned but only Shimakaze was ever built.
The other 16 were cancelled.

If Jap ship industry is alive I don't see why these units shouldn't be possible to produce.
Mini subs are well and good, but unless the post VJ Day scenarios are updated with post war units the game should end
in August 1945.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: PzB

Of the Akizuku class 16 units were planned:
12 units built, 6 sunk in combat, 6 scrapped, 4 canceled.

Of the Shimakaze 17 ships were planned but only Shimakaze was ever built.
The other 16 were cancelled.

If Jap ship industry is alive I don't see why these units shouldn't be possible to produce.
Mini subs are well and good, but unless the post VJ Day scenarios are updated with post war units the game should end
in August 1945.

Probably best for a mod though, as the AE team is really working on the "What did" instead of "What If". I do agree that if the end date is expanded beyond the historical end date then some reinforcments need to arrive in that time.

Would love to see a mod that goes to the end of '46 though.

[Terminus]

And that's EXACTLY what we're doing. It's "what did", not "what if" (good term there, Shark). And PzB? If you're going to call me an "ignoramus as usual", do me the favour of not using an winking smiley.

[PzB74]

Wow, someone's touchy on this thread!

When you replied that there wasn't a post war Jap production schedule you ignored that quite a few
IJN destroyers were planned and already building on slips. Most of these were postponed or canceled due to lack of resources.

If Matrix doesn't want to open up for anything planned for the period after VJ Day, fine no problem, but unfortunate since
the game runs into 1946. A game that runs "dry" into 1946 should include some "what ifs" and not only "what dids".
The Reppu and Shindens are two "what ifs" in WitP already.

Obviously you don't want or need any input on this topic, so I'll leave your big types alone without any more attempts at humorous interaction.

NB! That little blinking smiley is usually recognized to state humorous intent...

[pauk]

Yes, guys here does not need any input. And this game is going to be "what did" happend, that is for sure.

[jwilkerson]

From my perspective this is an open issue. Meaning we have not closed it on the design team.

My preference (which doesn't mean much) would be to end the game on 15 Aug 45. IIRC I got voted down by acclamation, but I still haven't changed my mind. The historical scenario should start and end on the historical date. Now that being said, I have not seen all the plans as to when it is proposed to end the game and what additional units will be added. So we will continue to cogitate on this issue and see what comes of that.

[pauk]

Yup, that is good idea.

[herwin]

Some Japanese TKs were equipped for underway replenishment. To identify them, look at the underway replenishment groups that accompanied IJN TFs. The tankers that accompanied the KB were in this category.

[spence]

Some Japanese TKs were equipped for underway replenishment. To identify them, look at the underway replenishment groups that accompanied IJN TFs. The tankers that accompanied the KB were in this category.

The procedure was considered somewhat theoretical in the IJN and the initial experiments were conducted as the tankers and oilers sailed to rendezvous with the KB just before the PH strike.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: spence

Some Japanese TKs were equipped for underway replenishment. To identify them, look at the underway replenishment groups that accompanied IJN TFs. The tankers that accompanied the KB were in this category.

The procedure was considered somewhat theoretical in the IJN and the initial experiments were conducted as the tankers and oilers sailed to rendezvous with the KB just before the PH strike.

It worked well enough to get the KB home after the attack. The replenishment group--including the tankers--was used again for the Indian Ocean operation.

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: herwin

Some Japanese TKs were equipped for underway replenishment. To identify them, look at the underway replenishment groups that accompanied IJN TFs. The tankers that accompanied the KB were in this category.

This, and my post give me an idea: what we really need are 3 ship types! AO for full alongside replenshment, tankers for no underway replenshment, and a middle class for over the stern replenishment. The rates would be several times higher for an AO, and Tk would be zero (at sea).The middle one would then be much slower. You could call it an RFA! Of course, you would need to call the IJN ones something else

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

ORIGINAL: herwin

Some Japanese TKs were equipped for underway replenishment. To identify them, look at the underway replenishment groups that accompanied IJN TFs. The tankers that accompanied the KB were in this category.

This, and my post give me an idea: what we really need are 3 ship types! AO for full alongside replenshment, tankers for no underway replenshment, and a middle class for over the stern replenishment. The rates would be several times higher for an AO, and Tk would be zero (at sea).The middle one would then be much slower. You could call it an RFA! Of course, you would need to call the IJN ones something else

Basically you are wanting to see 'Dead in the Water' replinishment capability. Could be done, but the ships have to come to a complete stop, it takes longer, and if the seas aren't calm, you run into problems.

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: Shark7



Basically you are wanting to see 'Dead in the Water' replinishment capability. Could be done, but the ships have to come to a complete stop, it takes longer, and if the seas aren't calm, you run into problems.

Although all I actually want (in game terms) is less oil tonnage transferred per operation point for over the stern oiling - and some way of telling them to transfer what you can in 50% of the turn and make some distance for the rest, rather than being forced to spend all op points at it becasue of the slow transfer.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Basically you are wanting to see 'Dead in the Water' replinishment capability. Could be done, but the ships have to come to a complete stop, it takes longer, and if the seas aren't calm, you run into problems.

Although all I actually want (in game terms) is less oil tonnage transferred per operation point for over the stern oiling - and some way of telling them to transfer what you can in 50% of the turn and make some distance for the rest, rather than being forced to spend all op points at it becasue of the slow transfer.

The game is not that fine grained. You either refuel, or you don't. Refueling, at sea, is governed by one piece of refuel code.

[Terminus]

And thank God for that!

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: JWE

The game is not that fine grained. You either refuel, or you don't. Refueling, at sea, is governed by one piece of refuel code.

I know that, I was hoping that could change (by adding a ship type. If not, I for one would like no under way replenishment for RN til 1944, or by borrowing a US AO and having an interoperabilty hit on ops points (or something). Say 10% less per turn (900 rather than 1000 for mixed nationality TF