Here we go again! tc464 (A) vs. Mike (J) - No tc464

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Pretty sure that Shikoku resources do not need independent pickup, Mike. They are magically transported across the water, IIRC. Hey, it frees up a bunch of your shipping!

Do we have confirmation of this ?

Xargun

[Mike Solli]

I don't. But it would be simple to check. Stop your convoys from this island for a couple of days and keep track of all the resources in every base. There aren't that many. If it levels off and remains constant, you have your proof!

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I don't. But it would be simple to check. Stop your convoys from this island for a couple of days and keep track of all the resources in every base. There aren't that many. If it levels off and remains constant, you have your proof!

Yep. There are 3 bases on Shikoku: Matsuyama, Takamatsu and Kochi. They produce 8900+900+300=10100 of resource surplus per day, but on turn 89 I they only have 26304+6906+14902=48112, only 4½ day's surplus, so resources must be flowing to Honshu via Takamatsu and Matsuyama.

[Mike Solli]

The key is to see if those numbers remain constant over a period of turns. Due to the weird AI calculations, there is usually some constant number of resources at bases. Look at Nagasaki. There is always a constant 131k there no matter how much you dump or remove each day.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The key is to see if those numbers remain constant over a period of turns. Due to the weird AI calculations, there is usually some constant number of resources at bases. Look at Nagasaki. There is always a constant 131k there no matter how much you dump or remove each day.

I would have 800,000+ resources on Shikoku if it didn't move out by itself. I only have 48,000, 4½ day's surplus production and I'm not shipping it anywhere... Similarly it seems there are just the minimum amount of supplies, the the surplus resources and supplies must be flowing to Honshu and Kyushu. No need to use ships! [:)]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

I would have 800,000+ resources on Shikoku if it didn't move out by itself. I only have 48,000, 4½ day's surplus production and I'm not shipping it anywhere... Similarly it seems there are just the minimum amount of supplies, the the surplus resources and supplies must be flowing to Honshu and Kyushu. No need to use ships! [:)]

Looks like that's the evidence we need guys! Thanks Erkki!

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Looks like that's the evidence we need guys! Thanks Erkki!

Great - I have a large convoy there loading and once it leaves I will stop all transport from there and watch it for a week - but it does sound like it should move by itself. The only problem I see is that I have like 800k resources in the northern base and it seems to stay there in large numbers. Maybe I messed up and expanded the port so it all goes there instead of the southern base - which would allow the free transport. I will definitely need to watch it and maybe build up the southern port too.

Xargun

[PaxMondo]

Haven't needed convoys to Shikoku for a long time ... the abstraction is that they are using the tunnel/numerous ferries that are present. Don't recall when this was implemented .... but waaaay back.

[obvert]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Looks like that's the evidence we need guys! Thanks Erkki!


Great - I have a large convoy there loading and once it leaves I will stop all transport from there and watch it for a week - but it does sound like it should move by itself. The only problem I see is that I have like 800k resources in the northern base and it seems to stay there in large numbers. Maybe I messed up and expanded the port so it all goes there instead of the southern base - which would allow the free transport. I will definitely need to watch it and maybe build up the southern port too.

Xargun

It might go there and stay there because you've been removing it by ship from there. Just as I metion below about HI in Manchuria, if I took too much fuel out of Port Arthur, it would never pass some back inland to those other bases, even though there was surplus.

As a new player I never knew I had to move resources from Shikoku, and so I never did! I only discovered one used to have to move them reading one of Mike's start-up TF charts, and thought what a pain that must have been.

So I've never had a problem with them flowing out.

I did start late moving resources from Hokkaido to Honshu through Ominato and a few other ports on the north. This is SCEN 2. I was very casual about it all until my LI in Tokyo shut down. I got it up in two days and it never quit again, but it's been a constant struggle to refill Tokyo's basket after that. For the past two months, 7-9/42, I kept seeing resources in the red at Osaka, Yokohama, Tokyo, and Kobe.

Only after much effort and extra from China and the DEI moving DIRECT into these ports did it go up to surplus levels in those cities. I was using a patch from about 6 months ago, and now I'm current and have the resources controls.

So my question is about those controls. Will they always assure that I have resources moving around to keep the right amount in each place if I set them to 'yes' store said item?

I also had problems not having enough fuel at inland cities in Manchuria to run the HI, so they periodically shut down. In my new game I've just set them all immediately to store fuel at Harbin and the others there.

One more thing. Do resources that are brought in at Ominato but make their way to Tokyo have losses due to transport overland?

[obvert]

-PS

The reason I'd like to know this for sure is that I would like to establish steady convoys based in Port Arthur, but don't want to use it as their home if that means the fuel will try to build up there o fuel the ships and not go to the factories it needs to feed.

Sorry if this is all very basic. Just want to get it straight.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert
So my question is about those controls. Will they always assure that I have resources moving around to keep the right amount in each place if I set them to 'yes' store said item?

I also had problems not having enough fuel at inland cities in Manchuria to run the HI, so they periodically shut down. In my new game I've just set them all immediately to store fuel at Harbin and the others there.

One more thing. Do resources that are brought in at Ominato but make their way to Tokyo have losses due to transport overland?

The controls only help HOLD the material that has flowed to the base there, it does not direct it to flow there. The logic behind the movement of resources/oil is based upon usage (including ship loading). It is possible to get resources/oil to move to Fusan, however it takes patience and effort do so. They want to move to Shanghai/PA because of port size and/or factory usage. You have to patiently build up your shipping efforts from Fusan to get it to move there. Can take many weeks of effort, but the results are MUCH shorter convoys resulting in a HUGE surplus of shipping and the ability to lock out the USN SS's. Pretty big pay back, so worth the effort.

This isn't gamey at all, although some say it is. First, IJ did end up doing a lot of transport out of Fusan for the above reasons late in the war. Second, the rail connections and port facilities at Fusan were more than adequate to the task. Fusan has a good, natural, deep water harbor, not as large as some, but still an 8/9 size by game standards easily. Anyone who has ever been there would validate this assessment. I was first there in '78, well before the economic miracle really kicked in. Most everything there was still WWII/Korean war era. Old, but nothing wrong with the quantity. Now, it is like going to San Diego ... very modern, very large.

I think IJ didn't shift more there earlier simply due to internal politics. Different commands with the PA commander not wanting to lose the assets/prestige having the shipping shift to Fusan. Just my opinion here ...

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



I've found myself training a large number of IJAAF pilots for LowNav bombing skills-those used for Kamikaze attacks later in the war. My goal is to be able to keep Kamikaze skills in the 55-65 range-it should translate into more damage later in the war.

Agree on IJAAF ASW training. It takes a long time for them to get up to 70 skill, but once they do, they're effective.

Hi Chickenboy and anyone else that wants to contribute..... I was thinking about starting a thread on the very same subject... The IJAAF in regards to Low Nav training I was thinking after the intial crop of IJAAF trained ASW recruits graduate , delegate one group of bombers to LowNav training... Do you all think 90 to 110 days in is too early to start training pilots for kamikazee duty?

Thanks..[:)]

Hasn't the group determined that you can get pilots trained in a single skill to ~70 in ~3 months? Some who have timed it indicate that you can get a group to circa 60 in about half (!) that time. So, figure LowNav at 1.5-2 months per recruit for a basic trained kamikaze pilot, right?

As far as when to *start* training for Kamikaze duty in the grand scheme of things? Tough question. When can Allied and Japanese players start using the benefits of hindsight and game mechanics? From day one. I can see the argument that it's unrealistically early for the Jap player to train Kamis on day one, but it's shades of gray. I'd be interested in hearing the arguments.

ETA: I suspect a reason this hasn't been a major issue has been the lack of AAR-reported games in mid-44 or later. Precious few have seen / discussed their kamikaze experiences for debate or HR development.

AFB sticking his nose in - Alert! [:D]

Hey guys, just catching up, so I don't know if anyone has really addressed this question yet or not. In my humble, Allied opinion, there is no issue with starting to train pilots to be used as Kami's on Dec 8, '41. It's really a decision for the Jap player how he wants to allocate his available training resources. As Sulu mentioned, any LowNav training is at the expense of ASW training, or something else. There doesn't seem to be any "trick the game mechanics" at work here to gain an advantage. Hence, no worries. [8D]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Doesn't matter, GBL. Your discussion of it in your AAR was the spark. Thanks!

This is exactly why I love reading your AAR, Mike! Nothing you specifically discuss can be directly applied to the Allied side, but the ideas, planning, and organization sure can! [8D]

[obvert]

The controls only help HOLD the material that has flowed to the base there, it does not direct it to flow there. The logic behind the movement of resources/oil is based upon usage (including ship loading). It is possible to get resources/oil to move to Fusan, however it takes patience and effort do so. They want to move to Shanghai/PA because of port size and/or factory usage. You have to patiently build up your shipping efforts from Fusan to get it to move there. Can take many weeks of effort, but the results are MUCH shorter convoys resulting in a HUGE surplus of shipping and the ability to lock out the USN SS's. Pretty big pay back, so worth the effort.

I'll try Fusan.

The manual says this about adjacent hexes-

"A base may transfer supplies, oil, and resources to an adjacent base regardless of the terrain the separates the two hexes (allows inland sea movement of resources and oil)."

Wouldn't this also mean that everything should move between Hakodote and Ominato? I see at the end it mentions inland seas, but it seems to also indicate earlier that ANY two BASES can move supplies without shipping as long as they are adjacent.

[hkbhsi]

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'll try Fusan.

The manual says this about adjacent hexes-

"A base may transfer supplies, oil, and resources to an adjacent base regardless of the terrain the separates the two hexes (allows inland sea movement of resources and oil)."

Wouldn't this also mean that everything should move between Hakodote and Ominato? I see at the end it mentions inland seas, but it seems to also indicate earlier that ANY two BASES can move supplies without shipping as long as they are adjacent.

Resources do not move automatically between Hokkaido and Honshu because the hexside that divides Hakodate from Ominato is impassable (you can check it by using the F6 key) and therefore the 2 bases are not technically adjacent. You have to use ships to move resources and supply.

[obvert]

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'll try Fusan.

The manual says this about adjacent hexes-

"A base may transfer supplies, oil, and resources to an adjacent base regardless of the terrain the separates the two hexes (allows inland sea movement of resources and oil)."

Wouldn't this also mean that everything should move between Hakodote and Ominato? I see at the end it mentions inland seas, but it seems to also indicate earlier that ANY two BASES can move supplies without shipping as long as they are adjacent.

Resources do not move automatically between Hokkaido and Honshu because the hexside that divides Hakodate from Ominato is impassable (you can check it by using the F6 key) and therefore the 2 bases are not technically adjacent. You have to use ships to move resources and supply.

Thanks. That clarifies it.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'll try Fusan.

The manual says this about adjacent hexes-

"A base may transfer supplies, oil, and resources to an adjacent base regardless of the terrain the separates the two hexes (allows inland sea movement of resources and oil)."

Wouldn't this also mean that everything should move between Hakodote and Ominato? I see at the end it mentions inland seas, but it seems to also indicate earlier that ANY two BASES can move supplies without shipping as long as they are adjacent.

Resources do not move automatically between Hokkaido and Honshu because the hexside that divides Hakodate from Ominato is impassable (you can check it by using the F6 key) and therefore the 2 bases are not technically adjacent. You have to use ships to move resources and supply.

That's correct. If you set a convoy to move from one of those ports to the other, the distance travelled is 2 hexes.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

The controls only help HOLD the material that has flowed to the base there, it does not direct it to flow there. The logic behind the movement of resources/oil is based upon usage (including ship loading). It is possible to get resources/oil to move to Fusan, however it takes patience and effort do so. They want to move to Shanghai/PA because of port size and/or factory usage. You have to patiently build up your shipping efforts from Fusan to get it to move there. Can take many weeks of effort, but the results are MUCH shorter convoys resulting in a HUGE surplus of shipping and the ability to lock out the USN SS's. Pretty big pay back, so worth the effort.

This isn't gamey at all, although some say it is. First, IJ did end up doing a lot of transport out of Fusan for the above reasons late in the war. Second, the rail connections and port facilities at Fusan were more than adequate to the task. Fusan has a good, natural, deep water harbor, not as large as some, but still an 8/9 size by game standards easily. Anyone who has ever been there would validate this assessment. I was first there in '78, well before the economic miracle really kicked in. Most everything there was still WWII/Korean war era. Old, but nothing wrong with the quantity. Now, it is like going to San Diego ... very modern, very large.

I think IJ didn't shift more there earlier simply due to internal politics. Different commands with the PA commander not wanting to lose the assets/prestige having the shipping shift to Fusan. Just my opinion here ...

Good to read those thoughts and great avatar Pax!!

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Haven't needed convoys to Shikoku for a long time ... the abstraction is that they are using the tunnel/numerous ferries that are present. Don't recall when this was implemented .... but waaaay back.

The Japanese relied an extensive train ferry service from Shikoku to Honshu-since most transport in the home islands was via rail. And relied on train ferrys for transport between the other main islands. Late in the war the Allied bombing campaign sunk most of the ferry ships in Japan which essentially cut the islands off from each other. In an ideal game situation the flow of supply would lessen as the war progressed. We will have to save that for AE2. [;)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Haven't needed convoys to Shikoku for a long time ... the abstraction is that they are using the tunnel/numerous ferries that are present. Don't recall when this was implemented .... but waaaay back.

The Japanese relied an extensive train ferry service from Shikoku to Honshu-since most transport in the home islands was via rail. And relied on train ferrys for transport between the other main islands. Late in the war the Allied bombing campaign sunk most of the ferry ships in Japan which essentially cut the islands off from each other. In an ideal game situation the flow of supply would lessen as the war progressed. We will have to save that for AE2. [;)]

When were the tunnels built? Were they pre or post war?