MWiF Map Review - America

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets

Post Reply
Shannon V. OKeets
Posts: 22165
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Shreveport is maybe not that important to add on the map here in the south if we want to keep the map from being clogged with cities. But if that is so then I don't understand why we are in the process of adding so many new cities in the NE part of USA. Why is it ok in NE USA to add cities like Hartford, Flint, Albany, Akron, Dayton etc. while there are so few cities in the south compared to the north? Is it because you expect some military actions in the NE of USA so USA needs cities to add reinforcements?

For me the most important thing about making a map is to have CONSISTANT design rules everywhere on the map. If you go for one detail level at one part of the map then it would be strange if other parts of the map have a much lesser detail level. I think mainly about adding cities, ports and railroads. That is one reason I don't think the megalopolis idea of creating a continuous line of cities from Washington to Boston is a good idea. Was it really that crowded in 1940 from Washington to Boston? I noticed that many US cities have become a lot bigger during the last 50-60 years. One example is Las Vegas that had 8.400 inhabitants in 1940 and had 545.000 inhabitants in 2005.

So maybe it's a good idea to be more restrictive about adding new cities in NE USA. Especially new cities not needed for supply reasons, like adding a city adjacent to an already bigger city (like adding Providence adjacent to Boston).
Well, let me just say that we have added not cities for the moment. All those violet wrote cities are not yet added, they just are the proposals I've heard of for the moment. I did put them all on the map for people to see them, but I do not expect to place even helf of them on the map.
Also, I'm more enclined to add cities to the NE because I think there are a lot more inhabitants in those areas, not that I expect any combat here (except if playing AiF). If I'm mistaken please tell me.

High density and/or a line of cities is not commonplace in WIF FE but it does occur in several locations. Here are 2 examples,

1 - in Germany: Kiel, Hamburg, Bremen, Magdeburg, Hannover, Essen, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Aachen, Sarbrucken, Frankfort, Karlsruhe, Stuttgart.

2 - in England: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds, Hull, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Coventry, Cardiff, Bristol, Southampton, Portsmouth.

I do have a concern about basing decisions solely on the population counts for the cities. Each hex is about 60 miles across (90-100 Km) and a city occupies very little of that area. I would like to see a lot of other smaller cities in the same hex and/or extensive industry and/or suburbs to justify the addition of a city. A single city in the midst of a mostly unpopulated area would require strong justification.

Conversely, there might be (hypothetically) a dozen or so small cities in a hex and then we would choose one of them for the label as the city in the hex, even if officially the 'city' proper has a population under 100K. I think that Newark NJ might be in this category. The NE part of NJ has a lot of small cities and extensive suburbs some heavy industry. That aggregate makes calling it a city ok by me. Even so, the rest of northern NJ is almost all lightly populated hilly woods with some national parks thrown in.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
Shannon V. OKeets
Posts: 22165
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
There should be a north-south railroad from Cincinnatti (through Dayton) (through Toledo) to Detroit.

If we look at this in terms of game play, it seems important to me to capture the fact that the US rail & road transportation was quite elaborate even by 1940.

Also if we look at this in terms of game play, if you imagine Axis troops reaching the East Coast, I am wondering if we are making the east coast a bit too difficult to conquer, with all those hero cities. if the game is going that well for the Axis, morale in US east coast cities would be pretty dismal...

No one has mentioned this, but it seems to me that the main beneficiary of all these improvements on the US map is going to be the AI, when playing against Axis players who have tweaked the CSV files to get themselves into a commanding position!

Actually, such considerations have never even entered my head as we have been reviewing the maps. I consider them irrelevant and only rarely think in terms of two sides (or 8 major powers) fighting over the terrain. As far as game play intrudes as a criterion, the rules on supply, combat, and reinforcement dictate decisions.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
User avatar
Anendrue
Posts: 817
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:26 pm

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Anendrue »

Patrice this may or may not help. In 1940 National geographic published a National defense Map of the USA, Canada, and Mexico detailing cities, bases, ports etc... The census records of the larger cities was also included on this map. Also interesting to note, there is a small insert that shows information on the civil defense of the US. Considering the date of the Map - December 1940, is an interesting historical map for WiF. The insert map shows the Grouping of Infantry Divisions into Corps and of Corps into Field Armies state by state. National Guard areas are also shown. Map folds out to : 40" by 27". If you can get a copy through an interlibrary loan this should preempt an awful lot of historical speculation. This is a small sample I found on the web.



Image
Attachments
US1940Na..ensemap.jpg
US1940Na..ensemap.jpg (102.91 KiB) Viewed 2964 times
Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.
User avatar
JagdFlanker
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:18 pm
Location: Miramichi, Canada

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by JagdFlanker »

top 100 US cities by population 1940

http://www.census.gov/population/docume ... /tab17.txt
Shannon V. OKeets
Posts: 22165
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

top 100 US cities by population 1940

http://www.census.gov/population/docume ... /tab17.txt
Wow, I didn't realize the Newark NJ was so large. Also part of that hex are Jersey City, Patterson, and Elizabeth.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
User avatar
JagdFlanker
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:18 pm
Location: Miramichi, Canada

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by JagdFlanker »

1941 population census – Canada

Halifax, Nova Scotia – 123k

St. John, New Brunswick – 70k (optional - MAJOR ship building yard and oil refineries)

Montreal, Quebec – 1358k
Quebec City, Quebec – 203k

Toronto, Ontario – 952k
Hamilton, Ontario – 207k
Ottawa, Ontario – 203k
Windsor, Ontario – 174k
London, Ontario – 127k
Kitchener, Ontario – 99k
Thunder Bay, Ontario – 85k
Sudbury, Ontario - 81k (resource hex)

Winnipeg, Manitoba – 295k

Regina, Saskatchewan – 109k

Edmonton, Alberta – 149k
Calgary, Alberta – 147k

Vancouver, British Columbia – 450k
Victoria, British Columbia – 151k


EDIT:

Newfoundland did not join Canada until 1949 (was a Brit colony), but Metro St. John's looks to have had 100k-ish population in the '40's
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

top 100 US cities by population 1940

http://www.census.gov/population/docume ... /tab17.txt
Is there the rest of the list somewhere ? For cities after the 100 first ones.
User avatar
JagdFlanker
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:18 pm
Location: Miramichi, Canada

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by JagdFlanker »

that was just a page i scored looking for canadian population - you can try going to the homepage and looking around, but it doesn't look too friendly [;)]

at least you know the year of the census now - that was the most difficult part of finding the historical canadian metro populations

User avatar
doctormm
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 3:52 am

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by doctormm »

I'm not sure of the current status of the map, but if Albany is still in, then it's on the wrong side of the Hudson.
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: doctormm
I'm not sure of the current status of the map, but if Albany is still in, then it's on the wrong side of the Hudson.
Good catch, thanks for that.
Do you think that Albany is at the wrong place, or that the Hudson is at the wrong place ?
I think that the Hudson is at the wrong place, it seems more north-south flowing. Is it connected to Lake Champlain to the north ?
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

The best is not to place Albany on the map, because redrawing the Hudson so that it runs east of Albany makes the global hudson seems to come from the northeast. Looks awkward...
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

Here is what Canada could look.
First is the area north of the Great Lakes.
It includes the modified railways (black lines) proposed by Flanker Leader (post #19). I checked them with a couple of Canada maps, one from the early 20s, one of the late 20s, and also the WiF FE Canada map. I also checked with current Canada map to avoid having railways where there never were.
Flanker Leader was mostly right with the modified railways he proposed.

I also proposed to add the the city of Sudbury (81k in 1941), because on the WiF map, a Canadian unit would be in supply from Toronto up to the connection between Lake Superior and Lake Huron.
With the MWiF map as it is, this supply situation is far from being ok, so I propose to add Sudbury to make it the same as WiF FE.

Image
Attachments
CanadaSou..atLakes.jpg
CanadaSou..atLakes.jpg (175.11 KiB) Viewed 2955 times
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

Here is the Newfoundland, Newbrunswick, and Lower Québec areas.
Here there is nothing modified, only the coastlines added.

Image
Attachments
CanadaSou..oundland.jpg
CanadaSou..oundland.jpg (125.9 KiB) Viewed 2955 times
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

Here is the Manitoba / Saskatchewan / eastern Alberta areas.
I made some modifications here :

- Moved the Churchill Railway 2-3 hexes south.
- Moved Saskatoon 1 hex SW, and the railway that runs through it.
- Moved the railway south of Regina going into the USA 1-2 hexes W. Moved the Oil resource too.

- Proposal of addition of Regina (109k in 1941) for supply between Calgary and Winnipeg, to make the supply cover of the area as in WiF FE maps.


Image
Attachments
CanadaSou..Manitoba.jpg
CanadaSou..Manitoba.jpg (193.49 KiB) Viewed 2954 times
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

Here is British Columbia and a bit of Alberta.
If you think that these area are remote area, think again. Reviewing Canada showed me more remote places than British Columbia [:D].

Image
Attachments
CanadaSou..Columbia.jpg
CanadaSou..Columbia.jpg (196.93 KiB) Viewed 2958 times
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

Here is the southern Hudson Bay.
I did not finished the Northwest Territories and the northern Hudson Bay yet.

Image
Attachments
CanadaSou..dsonBay.jpg
CanadaSou..dsonBay.jpg (125.06 KiB) Viewed 2954 times
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

Newfoundland did not join Canada until 1949 (was a Brit colony), but Metro St. John's looks to have had 100k-ish population in the '40's
So the WiF FE maps had it true, because on these Newfoundland is a Territory controlled by the CW.
In MWiF on the other hand, Newfoundland is part of Canada.

If Steve agrees, I'll create Newfoundland Territory, and make its hexes part of this Territory (Edit : I can add it as a CGA Steve, are you ok ?).
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

1. Add city of Thunder Bay in Canada?

Thunder Bay is a city on the NW bank of Lake Superior. It's located in the hex 3xNE+E of Duluth. It's the biggest city in the region on the Canadian side of the border and is maybe needed for supply reasons. The city is not very big (122.000 inhabitants now), but the only city in this area of Canada having a chance to be on the MWIF map.
Thunder Bay (I love the name [8D]) had a 85k population in 1941, so it could be added if there was a need for it.
I think there is no need for it, it is even the contrary.
This area of the WiF FE map is a big supply hole for Canadian units, and adding Thunder bay would make it different.

Here is how southern Canada looks in WiF FE (Edit : remember these are Pacific scaled hexes, so Supply extends 2 hexes from cities -- On the MwiF map, supply extends 4 hexes from cities) :

Image
Attachments
CanadaSou..FEsmall.jpg
CanadaSou..FEsmall.jpg (167.41 KiB) Viewed 2958 times
Shannon V. OKeets
Posts: 22165
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Newfoundland did not join Canada until 1949 (was a Brit colony), but Metro St. John's looks to have had 100k-ish population in the '40's
So the WiF FE maps had it true, because on these Newfoundland is a Territory controlled by the CW.
In MWiF on the other hand, Newfoundland is part of Canada.

If Steve agrees, I'll create Newfoundland Territory, and make its hexes part of this Territory (Edit : I can add it as a CGA Steve, are you ok ?).
Yes.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
User avatar
Froonp
Posts: 7998
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Marseilles, France
Contact:

RE: MWiF Map Review - America

Post by Froonp »

Here is upper Québec.
Feels cold !!!!

Image
Attachments
CanadaSou..7Quebec.jpg
CanadaSou..7Quebec.jpg (176.53 KiB) Viewed 2954 times
Post Reply

Return to “World in Flames”