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desert
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RE: SS

Post by desert »

Okay, I thought of the Indus River Valley. Nothing happened.
The Indus River Valley civilization had no weapons and never fought a war. Coupled with the massive starvation around 1500 B.C, and it explains why the Aryans could have just walked in and taken over.
 
Au contraire. The Mongol invasions halved the population of Iran. As to letting off steam, what the hell do you think we started the Spanish-American War for? The sugar?
 
We did it for the Cuba. It's called imperialism. Would you say that the "splendid little war" was just for the civilian population to salivate over?
 
Again, nonsense. Most stayed firmly in favor of World War One -- and indeed, grew only more determined -- as the butcher's bill grew. Had casualties been enough to stop anyone, the war would indeed have ended before the leaves fell. By your logic, World War Two should have ended about mid-1942.
 
Popular opinion of war decreases as casualties increase. They would have finished the fight back then, but it doesn't mean they like it.
 
 American Paleolithic tribes that engaged in warfare more or less continually. The Sioux, The Arapaho, The Crow, The Cheyenne, The Apache, The Paiute... The rest that come to mind were either neolithic or I know so little about them that I can't positively affirm that they fought all the time, but I've no knowledge of any tribe that actually avoided waging war.

Those tribes didn't exist in the Paleolithic. unless you are talking about the guys who crossed the land bridge.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

Lost trying get the quotes to work. My responses italicized.
ORIGINAL: desert
Okay, I thought of the Indus River Valley. Nothing happened.
The Indus River Valley civilization had no weapons and never fought a war. Coupled with the massive starvation around 1500 B.C, and it explains why the Aryans could have just walked in and taken over.

Bumph. Almost nothing is known about them beyond the fact that they seem to have worshipped giant penises. For all we know, they might have conducted total war nightly.
Au contraire. The Mongol invasions halved the population of Iran. As to letting off steam, what the hell do you think we started the Spanish-American War for? The sugar?

We did it for the Cuba. It's called imperialism. Would you say that the "splendid little war" was just for the civilian population to salivate over?

We most certainly did not do it 'for Cuba.' That's like saying I went to the ball game for the hot dogs. We wanted to have a war, and we found it. If it hadn't been Spain and Cuba, something else would have turned up. While I don't necessarily agree with your choice of terms, we indeed did fight the war 'for the civilian population to salivate over.' If the Ameircan people had not been in the mood for just such an undertaking, I doubt very much if the war would have happened.
Again, nonsense. Most stayed firmly in favor of World War One -- and indeed, grew only more determined -- as the butcher's bill grew. Had casualties been enough to stop anyone, the war would indeed have ended before the leaves fell. By your logic, World War Two should have ended about mid-1942.

Popular opinion of war decreases as casualties increase. They would have finished the fight back then, but it doesn't mean they like it.

Be that as it may. You claim enthusiasm for war ends when the casualty lists get long. Obviously, that doesn't happen. The combatants often simply become more determined. Proposing peace could literally get you put into an insane asylum in 1917 England.
American Paleolithic tribes that engaged in warfare more or less continually. The Sioux, The Arapaho, The Crow, The Cheyenne, The Apache, The Paiute... The rest that come to mind were either neolithic or I know so little about them that I can't positively affirm that they fought all the time, but I've no knowledge of any tribe that actually avoided waging war.

Those tribes didn't exist in the Paleolithic. unless you are talking about the guys who crossed the land bridge.

Yawn. Look up 'paleolithic.'
That stage of human cultural and technological development preceding agricultural and pastoralism. All hunting/gathering cultures are paleolithic -- whenever they may have existed. More to the point, the examples we have of such cultures typically waged war almost continuously. Why, when most paleolithic cultures that have been examined turn out to have waged war, do you claim that they didn't?
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Lost trying get the quotes to work. My responses italicized.
ORIGINAL: desert
Okay, I thought of the Indus River Valley. Nothing happened.
The Indus River Valley civilization had no weapons and never fought a war. Coupled with the massive starvation around 1500 B.C, and it explains why the Aryans could have just walked in and taken over.

Bumph. What's your source for this claim? Last I heard, almost nothing was definitely known about the Indus Valley civilizations beyond the fact that they seem to have worshipped giant penises. For all we know, they might have conducted total war nightly.



We did it for the Cuba. It's called imperialism. Would you say that the "splendid little war" was just for the civilian population to salivate over?

We most certainly did not do it 'for Cuba.' That's like saying I went to the ball game for the hot dogs. We wanted to have a war, and we found it. If it hadn't been Spain and Cuba, something else would have turned up.



Popular opinion of war decreases as casualties increase. They would have finished the fight back then, but it doesn't mean they like it.

Be that as it may. You claim enthusiasm for war ends when the casualty lists get long. Obviously, that doesn't happen. The combatants often simply become more determined. Proposing peace could literally get you put into an insane asylum in 1917 England.



Those tribes didn't exist in the Paleolithic. unless you are talking about the guys who crossed the land bridge.

Yawn. Look up 'paleolithic.'
That stage of human cultural and technological development preceding agricultural and pastoralism. All hunting/gathering cultures are paleolithic -- whenever they may have existed. More to the point, the examples we have of such cultures typically waged war almost continuously. Why, when most paleolithic cultures that have been examined turn out to have waged war, do you claim that they didn't?

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desert
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RE: SS

Post by desert »

 Pa·le·o·lith·ic  Image  Image   (pâ'lç-ə-lĭth'ĭk)  Pronunciation Key  adj.   Of or relating to the cultural period of the Stone Age beginning with the earliest chipped stone tools, about 750,000 years ago, until the beginning of the Mesolithic Period, about 15,000 years ago.
 
In the paleolithic era, no evidence for warfare or organized conflict has been found. If a tribe attacked another tribe 50,000 years ago, it would be for food or territory, so stop equivocating the meaning of paleolithic. It refers to the specific time period, not whether a group is hunter-gatherer. Also, don't try saying they would have attacked for the heck of it.
 
And that thing about the Indus River Valley civilization is false. Why have NO weapons or signs of the cult of the warrior-king been unearthed in their ruins? And they worshipped unicorns and enjoyed bathing, never heard of them drawing penises. Can you get a link for that?
 
Good night then.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: desert

Pa·le·o·lith·ic Image Image (pâ'lç-ə-lĭth'ĭk) Pronunciation Key adj. Of or relating to the cultural period of the Stone Age beginning with the earliest chipped stone tools, about 750,000 years ago, until the beginning of the Mesolithic Period, about 15,000 years ago.

In the paleolithic era, no evidence for warfare or organized conflict has been found. If a tribe attacked another tribe 50,000 years ago, it would be for food or territory, so stop equivocating the meaning of paleolithic. It refers to the specific time period, not whether a group is hunter-gatherer. Also, don't try saying they would have attacked for the heck of it.

And that thing about the Indus River Valley civilization is false. Why have NO weapons or signs of the cult of the warrior-king been unearthed in their ruins? And they worshipped unicorns and enjoyed bathing, never heard of them drawing penises. Can you get a link for that?

Good night then.

Paleolithic means 'old stone age.' It is differentiated from the 'New stone age' by the absence of agriculture and pastoralism.

Obviously, whether a culture was paleolithic, neolithic, or an iron age culture has nothing to do with when it existed, but with its level of technological development. The Iroquois were flourishing in the 1500's -- but were not a renaissance culture by virtue of that fact. The Chumash along California's coast were still hunting and gathering in the 1700's -- guess what? They were a paleolithic people. If you are going to define these terms by simple universal time periods, they lose all meaning. Would that the Chumash existed in 1720 therefore make them an early modern culture?

Now, those people with a paleolithic culture that we do have records of generally have waged war. So it follows that those that existed in the past did so as well. After all, we know that lions of today hunt medium-sized grazing animals. It follows that the lions of fifty thousand BC did so as well -- although it may be that no fossil evidence exists to show that they did. In this connection, notice that skeleton of a prehistoric man that was found in a Swiss glacier a decade or two back. He had scars from a healed arrow wound or some such thing.

As to no evidence having been unearthed about the Indus valley cultures having waged war, that's a bit like me saying you have no sex life because I have yet to find any evidence that you do. There's a great deal I don't know about you -- in fact, I know almost nothing about you. The same applies to the people of the ancient Indus Valley. We know almost nothing. When it comes to war, about all we can say is that since almost every other culture we do know something about has waged war, presumably the people of the Indus Valley did so as well. It's theoretically possible that they didn't -- but it's also theoretically possible they were hermaphrodites with two heads apiece. Just highly unlikely.

In any case, that you are driven to make assertions about people we know nothing about to support an apparent thesis that war is not a natural human activity just shows how flimsy your case must be. I might feel it desirable that people have no sexual desire -- but if all I could present to support such a thesis was the point that no evidence exists to show that various extinct people did have sexual desires, wouldn't you say my case was pretty weak?

The fact is that it is us that are abnormal. Traumatized by WW's 1 and 2, and confronted by the obvious undesirability of massive nuclear exchanges, we have striven to convince ourselves that we don't like war and that we needn't permit it to occur.

Well, all the evidence is otherwise. It continues to happen frequently. We obviously find ourselves motivated to seek it out -- as happened after 9-11. Not that I find anything especially wrong in that fact. However, if we hadn't been so intent about lying to ourselves about our motives, we might have conducted ourselves more intelligently.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

Oh. And...

http://www.caroun.com/Countries/Asia/Pa ... ation.html

"... Phallic worship also appears to have been important element in religious life. The many large cone-shaped objects have been identified as representations of the phallus and sizeable ring-type objects as representations of female generative organs..."

Since you seemed to find my claim doubtful.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

This is good as well.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_f-sPH ... oV3b_LnrZM

Sadly, it's in some format that won't let me cut and paste, but it contains a discussion of the archeological evidence of the defensive fortifications and weapons used in warfare in the Indus Valley -- that warfare you claimed they didn't practice.

That's the problem with advancing theses that aren't true. Evidence discrediting them is rather easy to come by. I was reasonably sure that the people of the Indus Valley waged war -- and sure enough, it appears that they did. Either that, or they built forts for fun.

Generally, everybody fights -- and generally, all the time. One of the oldest human settlements known is Jericho -- and the archeological record shows that they built nice, high walls. Whoever their neighbors were, they weren't friendly.
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golden delicious
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: desert

I'm hoping for a nice, healthy interstellar colonization era.

From what I've read, nuclear detonation propulsion is the most practical option- and this is illegal because of the test ban treaty.
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Image

You really ought to be able to have a duel. Sort of like a marriage- if both parties agree, and there are witnesses, then whoever gets hurt at least it's all under the law.
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

n/a
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: desert

The Indus River Valley civilization had no weapons and never fought a war.

To be honest, we know virtually nothing about this civilisation. I put it to you that a) they had weapons and b) they fought wars but none of the evidence has survived. You just couldn't have a settled civilisation in this period for so long without getting invaded repeatedly by the Asiatic horse peoples.
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golden delicious
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: desert

In the paleolithic era, no evidence for warfare or organized conflict has been found.

It's widely held that Homo Sapiens wiped out Homo Neandarthalensis in this period. How do you propose we achieved this without "warfare or organised conflict"? Certainly we can't have done it without having several people working together with a violent goal- neandarthals were a lot stronger than we are.
Why have NO weapons or signs of the cult of the warrior-king been unearthed in their ruins?

You don't have to have a warrior king to wage war- and weapons can be stored elsewhere.
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vahauser
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RE: SS

Post by vahauser »

Humans are an aggressive violent species.  It's genetic.  It could well prove to be our undoing as a species.
 
To believe that humans are not an agressive violent species is to ignore the reality of our evolution.  We came from an aggressive violent environment (the African savannah) surrounded by aggressive violent animals.  To survive in that environment required aggressive violent behavior from early hominids.
 
If you believe in creation rather than evolution, then humans as aggressive and violent is even more obvious:  Cain and Abel.  Wrath of God (with humans made in God's image).  Pharoahs and Jews.  Enough said.
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RE: SS

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


All I can say is that there's a difference between the United States and George Bush.

..really[X(][X(]

..is that the US as a whole or just the bits that didn't vote for him...twice...

And then there are those of us who voted for him four times (twice for gov and twice for pres).

Now if only Jeb would run.
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RE: SS

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Humans are an aggressive violent species.  It's genetic.

Never mind humans. Try any other territorial social species: Wolves, Lions, Ants. War is just a collective twist on the struggle for existence. That's at least 3,500,000,000 years old.
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

And then there are those of us who voted for him four times (twice for gov and twice for pres).

Now if only Jeb would run.

First Hillary Clinton, then Jeb Bush, then Chelsey (?) Clinton. Let's really screw future American schoolchildren.
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

And then there are those of us who voted for him four times (twice for gov and twice for pres).

Now if only Jeb would run.

First Hillary Clinton, then Jeb Bush, then Chelsey (?) Clinton. Let's really screw future American schoolchildren.

The most disgusting part of it all is that Hillary Clinton starts to look like the best of the batch. I cannot believe that we cannot do better than that.
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JAMiAM
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RE: SS

Post by JAMiAM »

Another friendly reminder to leave current politics at the door...at the outside of the door.
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Another friendly reminder to leave current politics at the door...at the outside of the door.

Next thing you'll be demanding that we keep threads on-topic. Honestly.
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ColinWright
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


All I can say is that there's a difference between the United States and George Bush.

..really[X(][X(]

..is that the US as a whole or just the bits that didn't vote for him...twice...

And then there are those of us who voted for him four times (twice for gov and twice for pres).

Now if only Jeb would run.

Hmm. Well, personal differences notwithstanding, when I become president I may appoint you my goodwill ambassador to the world's liberal community. I'd say you may have potential.
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