The Sun In My Eyes - EOS from the Allied Perspective

[goodboyladdie]

I do not think that is the case.

So far he does not seem to be listening. I have a strange feeling that I have been here before...

[ny59giants]

I just got done reading various threads in the Design section. I think the original AA in stock and then again in many mods "may" have been out of whack. Many players (me too!!) got use to coming in at 7k to 10k with LB and not have to face the flak issue. Now, it seems players need to be more aware of what altitude they come in at. John 3rd continued to come over Singapore at 5k with his LB. That may be why he suffered such high losses. Add in the changes to individual LCUs in the OOB and all players have to adjust to new tactics. I think RHS players will need to set their LBA at higher altitudes when they bomb places like Manila and Singapore. Then slowly lower them as they find out what the max range is of a particular AA gun.
 
As an Allied player, the changes in logistics is a "major" adjustment. In my brief RHS game, I was more focused on logistics than warships. It is a different animal than stock and all other mods, IMO.  I am willing to bet that a lot of things from RHS will find their way into AE in some form (I have no proof, just a feeling).

[Yava]

Bad EOS bad  spoiled my reading... [:(]

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I just got done reading various threads in the Design section. I think the original AA in stock and then again in many mods "may" have been out of whack. Many players (me too!!) got use to coming in at 7k to 10k with LB and not have to face the flak issue. Now, it seems players need to be more aware of what altitude they come in at. John 3rd continued to come over Singapore at 5k with his LB. That may be why he suffered such high losses. Add in the changes to individual LCUs in the OOB and all players have to adjust to new tactics. I think RHS players will need to set their LBA at higher altitudes when they bomb places like Manila and Singapore. Then slowly lower them as they find out what the max range is of a particular AA gun.

As an Allied player, the changes in logistics is a "major" adjustment. In my brief RHS game, I was more focused on logistics than warships. It is a different animal than stock and all other mods, IMO.  I am willing to bet that a lot of things from RHS will find their way into AE in some form (I have no proof, just a feeling).

But you have no control over release heights for Dive Bombers, Torpedo Bombers and Fighter-Bombers. It also makes skip bombing totally unattractive. If you cannot use your DBs and TBs without suffering 75% losses and you dare not risk your few precious experienced fighter-bomber pilots doing what they are supposed to do, doesn't that suggest that the fix has gone too far the other way and created a new problem? I am more than happy to adjust my level bombing heights upwards, but when I cannot carry out historical attacks using historical methods it has gone too far. This is just another example, just like the arbitrary cutting of cruiser ranges with no adjustments to other vessels and the making TKs and AOs too expensive to build because he did not feel that players valued them enough. The sentiment behind the changes is excellent, but sense was lost somewhere in the implementation and it is very difficult to get the opposing view heard...

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: Yava

Bad EOS bad  spoiled my reading... [:(]

It ruined my life! [:D]

[goodboyladdie]

Hi Mike

Just in case the AAA stays borked and TKs stay expensive I am going to load Gary's mod for a look...

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

Hi Mike

Just in case the AAA stays borked and TKs stay expensive I am going to load Gary's mod for a look...

Sounds good 2 me. Let me know what you think of it. I'll probably do the same shortly. The RHS experience makes me feel like I've been trying to nock down a wall with my head... Such a pretty map. Such promising new toyz in the what-if mods... Mikes w/limited range, Ju Dive Bombers, modifications to the production process, lots of new units scattered about the map, navigable rivers, an active Russia, the list of toyz is sooo long.

I just don't have the time to dig into mod development and deal with the learning curve - specially with AE coming out... I'm thinking that I'd like to find something that's had the growing pains play-tested out already. I'll start looking at other mods too.

[ny59giants]

Michael,
I agree with you about RHS. I wanted to give it a try, but I ran into enough problems that John and I gave up. If I was to try another one, it would be Gary's mod.  I going to try to play a short game against the AI to learn the "Dark Side." Scary, isn't it??[:D]
 
I wish I knew enough about mods to try to put Brian's mod on this level 7 map system.  

[witpqs]

I just switched to CHS 'Experimental' - which is Nick's flak + A2A fixes. What is Gary's mod about & what is it based on?

[ny59giants]

Here is the link to Gary's mod.
 
http://www.geocities.com/garychildress47/WITP_SCENARIO.htm

[witpqs]

Oh, that one! Okay, thank you.

[goodboyladdie]

There is an upgraded beta version available from one of the posts on Gary's AAR I think. It fixed a couple of things and reduced PPs as 1000 a day was found to be excessive, I'll add the link if I can find it...

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Elladan

It's mostly TKs, AOs and subs to some extent. AS, AR and such are probably also affected but it's not a big issue IMHO. TKs and AOs cost 16 times as much as same size AK on the overall, so they are too big burden on Japanese merchant shipyards and probably have to be all halted to have a chance to build anything. So basically - no TKs and AOs produced for Japan for the entire game. As my opponent calculated normal production on day 1 costed him some 10000 merchant points, around 10 times as much as his shipyards produce. He decided he's not going to play with such an issue.

Not 10 times, 14-15 times [;)]
The ships within the list are so expensive, that you must stop most of them to get at least a few...

I'll wait what comes out of Sids changes and as I expect the ships will still be far to expensive I'll fix it myself.

Sid now enlarges the shipyards - but AFAIK he doesn't enlarge the HI (and it's ressource centers on the Home Islands) as well, so you might geht more ships now while you get fewer arms, tanks and planes...

[goodboyladdie]

The fix only takes TK costs down to 9 times so I am not sure my opponent would still want to play with those figures. Most of Sid's work is superb and his research and data crunching is superhuman. I think if somebody who knew the editor would introduce the above P-38 figures, put the big Treaty (and WW2 built) Cruiser endurance up by 2000 or 3000, put the US replacement experience levels up to 60 USN, 55 USMC and 50 US Army (maybe even 55/55/45?) and make the TKs/AOs only twice as expensive as stock we would have the perfect mod. The AAA is a little too effective with these aircraft durability levels - I think the problem is that planes that would have been damaged are destroyed more often than not. You could not reduce effect without having a big knock on to surface and ground combat. Similarly if you tried to increase aircraft durability (where I personally think the actual problem lies) you would have to fiddle with all the A2A. However, Sid has done such a fantastic job of making sure all values are inter-related and conform to the same formula, it would in theory be a simple math (ok maybe not so simple) job to increase all relevant values in proportion to retain the balance of A2A. In my frustration with having all the work I put in on these three (short) games wasted I forgot how much time and work Sid actually puts into this. When you consider that it certainly gives perspective...

[goodboyladdie]

Here is the relevant post and link from Gary's AAR:

"Sounds great!!!!! Thanks... but HOLD UP! There has been a significant correction to it and I haven't put it up publicly yet. I'll give you the Beta site if you want though. To download the latest version its:

http://www.geocities.com/garychildress4 ... d_Beta.zip

EDIT: The Readme.txt file included with the download should say "Version 2.12" at the top. The corrections are listed just below it. The most important one is that the Thai army will now arrive in Bangkok where it is supposed to."

[Mistmatz]

Have you aready decided to abandon EOS? Would be too bad, I would have liked to see how EOS plays out in comparison to CVO which Okami and I will start after the vessel cost stuff is fixed. Well, maybe you are still considering...

[goodboyladdie]

I don't know. I'd like to play it, but if the TKs are 9 times as expensive as stock it might still be a game killer for Mike. I was really enjoying it and would love to play on, but I know as soon as I got bitten in the arse by one of the things I am unhappy about it would make me angry. Mike and I only really have time for one game, as we both want to leave a little room for an AE game in future, so we have to pick something we can both enjoy and we do not have to keep restarting. Maybe once the great AAA debate is sorted and TK costs are acceptable I could convince Mike to let me tweak the P-38 agility and start a game?

[witpqs]

GBL,

If and when you want I might be able to make some tweaks in the editor. You would have to tell me what you want and email me the actual scenario (file set) you want me to change.

I have not done a whole lot in the editor, only a few small things, but if I can manage it I will.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

I don't know. I'd like to play it, but if the TKs are 9 times as expensive as stock it might still be a game killer for Mike. I was really enjoying it and would love to play on, but I know as soon as I got bitten in the arse by one of the things I am unhappy about it would make me angry. Mike and I only really have time for one game, as we both want to leave a little room for an AE game in future, so we have to pick something we can both enjoy and we do not have to keep restarting. Maybe once the great AAA debate is sorted and TK costs are acceptable I could convince Mike to let me tweak the P-38 agility and start a game?

I'm sure we can work something out <grin>. I do want to see what will come of the AAA discussions. I've tossed in reducing accuracy as a possible solution. You've tossed in increasing the air frame durability plus a bump in A2A. I'd just very much like to see something that doesn't make being a TB, DB, or FB pilot a death sentence...

It looks like along with decreasing TK/AO cost from 15X to 9X that El Sid is bumping up the naval and merchie points pools for the start of the game. I think that this will force me to halt production on all ships and then only activate the ones I want to build (I was doing this in a limited fashion already but now it looks like it'll have to be everything). This will require much more management on my part but it is do-able. I suspect warships will require the same process.

It also sounds like El Sid is tweaking the AAA in regards to the PH T0 Suprise. And I think he's doing something to large AAA gunz on naval ships also...

So with everyone flying high to avoid flak I'm guessing we'll both B setting CAP as Max Altitude? [:D]

[Mistmatz]

If I understood it correctly the factor x9 or x16 doesn't matter. Unless Japan is able to store an exeptional amout of HI you have to halt some ships. Seems to be true for merchant shipyard as well as for navy shipyards.
Yes this means more management but the good thing is the TKs will be much more valuable and hence should be well protected against subs which seems very reasonable and realistic to me.