Alternate WNT Scenarios (v11 Released)

[Akos Gergely]

Very good news Juan! I can't wait to give it a shot.

Also let me recommend one of my good friend's work (I guess you already know his site), but he has a very nice photobucket page as well and a lot of nice designs for your CV variant.

BB-61 conversion to CV


Lexington more advanced conversion (it was planned to use materiel supplied for CC-4 Ranger for a more advanced CV conversion).

[51st Highland Div]

That is an excellent site you are posting from..there are quite a few ships there that i would love to see in scenario(s)..especially some of the heavy cruisers (both USN/RN)..[:)]

[Akos Gergely]

Agreed! CanisD is an old buddy, he drew a lot of ships on our request over at Warship Projects Forum

When Juan is ready with his base mod I'll add some more ships and classes to it, to make something of an über gunship mod but will keep it to historical preliminary designs and never weres (so no space cruisers with photon torps etc.)

[JuanG]

Still waiting on the final patch, but things look good so far.

I will probably reverse the Radar changes, but I still think the changes I've made to BB/CA weapons makes surface combat more reasonable. I'll have to test it with the final patch version to see.

I may also increase the maneuver ratings on PTs again, though I might also drop the accuracy of the Mk8 Torpedo to account for the bad launch platform.


I am well aware of that site csatahajos, and its been a great inspiration for concepts (like the Omaha CVE) and ideas. I'm also familiar with Warship Projects and it has been a vital source of information particularly on the Royal Navy designs.


While we wait for the patch and the release, is there anything anyone would like to see in particular? Artwork, ship states, upgrade lists? Information about the CV Variant? [;)]

I'd also like to ask if anyone has some ideas for conversions that I might not have thought of at the moment. One idea I'm toying with at the moment is an I-400 Minelayer conversion, though I'm unsure if I will actually keep that class ingame.

And speaking of 'über gunships', this is the überest in the BB Variant - when the USN wants a badass battleship, it gets one;

BB Illinois Class
BB-71 Illinois (February 1945), BB-72 Kentucky (August 1945)
Standard Displacement 73,600tons
Durability 250
Speed 33 Knots
Manuever 25
Range 15200nm (8460tons fuel)
Belt 16in (405mm)
Deck 7.9in (200mm)
Tower 16.6in (420mm)
12 x 16in/50 Mk7 - Turrets 18.8in (480mm)
24 x 5in/54 Mk16 - Turrets 0.5in (12mm)
88 x 40mm Bofors
72 x 20mm Oerlikon

[Akos Gergely]

Looks and sounds great ! I'm really on the edge to get this one started .

OK questions:
- can we have the ship artworks and the classes added in a post so that we can get a look at the respective navies
- information on the CV variant would be nice , actually you think it would be possible to somehow combine the two so as the player has the option for example after a Midway like loss what to build (I mean in this case both BB/CA and CV versions would be in the replacement queue)
- Illinois class looks great but what happened to the original neam beares (BB-65-66)? ALso a small suggestion would be to give a consideration for 12X or 16X 6"/47DP Mk16 as seconary armament. It was strongly advocated for the Montanas but the gun was not ready back then
- for ideas I'd be glad to have some variants or alternatives to the Cleveland/Baltimore class ships, there were so many nice designs (so keep the first few units of these classes but later hulls replaced by some better designs)
- finally what planes made it into your version from Ryan? He just recently drew the JRM-1 Mars, I think that would be a nice addition if it's not yet in (well actually all what Ryan did would be nice to have )

Also would you be willing to release your mod for us eager testers for a sneak peak before the final version [&o]?

Thanks

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: csatahajos
Looks and sounds great ! I'm really on the edge to get this one started .

Thanks, and I apologize for the delay. I really want it out as much as you do, so I can move on to the CV variant.

ORIGINAL: csatahajos
- can we have the ship artworks and the classes added in a post so that we can get a look at the respective navies

I'll throw togeather a similar 'battleline' like I did for the IJN for the USN and the RN. Do you just want the art, or a rundown like I did for Illinois above?

ORIGINAL: csatahajos
- information on the CV variant would be nice , actually you think it would be possible to somehow combine the two so as the player has the option for example after a Midway like loss what to build (I mean in this case both BB/CA and CV versions would be in the replacement queue)

Well, firstly there is a lot of conversions precicely for this reason, for situations like midway where one side ends up needing carriers pronto. So these conversions are available pretty soon (ie mid-42, maybe sooner), but their avaialability should be limited by their need via a house rule. I can make suggestions to that effect on release. Sadly the AI cannot do anything about this, so maybe an 'AI-friendly' version is worth considering.

However, combining them is not feasible since the overall doctrine of the IJN is much different in the CV Var, resulting is rather drastic differences right from the start, including the OOBs and weapons empolyed.

ORIGINAL: csatahajos
- Illinois class looks great but what happened to the original neam beares (BB-65-66)? ALso a small suggestion would be to give a consideration for 12X or 16X 6"/47DP Mk16 as seconary armament. It was strongly advocated for the Montanas but the gun was not ready back then

The names got shuffled up a little cause Washington is BB-47.
So for the new builds we have;
North Carolina Class (2 ordered, 2 completed)
BB-55 North Carolina
BB-56 Louisiana

South Dakota Class (4 ordered, 4 completed)
BB-57 South Dakota
BB-58 Indiana
BB-59 Massachusetts
BB-60 Alabama

Iowa Class (4 ordered, 4 completed)
BB-61 Iowa
BB-62 New Jersey
BB-63 Missouri
BB-64 Wisconsin

Montana Class (6 ordered, 4 completed)
BB-65 Montana
BB-66 Ohio
BB-67 Maine
BB-68 New Hampshire
BB-69 Delaware
BB-70 Michigan

Illinois Class (4 ordered, 2 completed)
BB-71 Illinois
BB-72 Kentucky
BB-73 Vermont
BB-74 Virginia

I very much considered the 6in/47, but I did not see it making it in time. If the scenario went into 1947, I could see the last two of the class modified to carry it. We would also see the Worcester class.

ORIGINAL: csatahajos
- for ideas I'd be glad to have some variants or alternatives to the Cleveland/Baltimore class ships, there were so many nice designs (so keep the first few units of these classes but later hulls replaced by some better designs)

Anything in particular you would like to suggest? Personally I think the late war USN cruisers were perfect for their job, and remain so, the only really superior units in the class being the Furano CBs. Maybe I'm too much of a Baltimore class fanboy... [;)]

However, if you've got a design you think is suitable, by all means just drop me the name or design id and ill go and take a look.

ORIGINAL: csatahajos
- finally what planes made it into your version from Ryan? He just recently drew the JRM-1 Mars, I think that would be a nice addition if it's not yet in (well actually all what Ryan did would be nice to have )

He100 (Now as the J2He - still need an allied nickname)

B-19 Raider
B-27 'Super Marauder'
B-36 Peacemaker
C-74 Globemaster
P-40Q Warhawk
P-71 Stormbird
P-75 Eagle
P-81 Falcon
TBY-2 Sea Wolf
TB2D Skypirate
AD-1 Skyraider
FH-1 Phantom

These are all courtesy of Ryan - I have done some minor modifications to the artwork, but full credit should go to him for them plus the concept and naming of most of these.

ORIGINAL: csatahajos
Also would you be willing to release your mod for us eager testers for a sneak peak before the final version [&o]?

I will release as soon as I can, which will not be long after the patch is out. If it looks like there will be no major patching following that, I can definately make early versions of the CV Variant and others available as I develop them (ie barebones no artwork versions).

[51st Highland Div]

Any info on the CV variant would be great as well JuanG if you have the time.....looking forward to these mods very much...[:)]

[Akos Gergely]

Hi Juan,

of course we wait patiently, and many thanks for the work you'Ve already put into this!

Now tro the points:

- The art itslef is fine with names of course

- CV variant and BB combo: I see your point and I agree with that

- cruisers: now that's an interesting thing as actually the Cleveland class was not the best design (it suffered from severe topweight problems). Historically there were desings for bot Cleveland and Baltimore follow ons, I'll send you some details in e-mail and you can have a look.

But I'd say if there is no clear focus on mass production then the CL-55 design would have been dropped after two ships (as indicateb in Norman Friedman's US Cruisers book). OK more on this in PM.

Nice list of planes already ! If you don'T mind at a later date I'll ask you to help me add some more as I'm still unable to do the planetop patching [8D]

Thanks and cheers

[JuanG]

The CV Variant is based on the premise of what if the IJN in the early 30s saw a radical shift in thinking, and their doctrine moved away from a attritive night action followed by a decisive battle, to a doctrine based on atrrition through carriers and fast surface forces. The importance of night combat is not forgotten, as these forces are vulnerable at night, but it is not as important as historically, and the IJN still prides itself on its skill at nightfighting (aka I had to think up a reason for this cause I cant get rid of the XP bonus).

However, elsewhere in the Navy, this results in some pretty radical changes;
-The oxygen fuelled torpedo projects are abandoned. Thus the main torpedo of the IJN in the coming war will be a slightly improved 61cm Type 90. Likewise the other torpedoes in use will change somewhat.
-Because of the IJNs awareness of the power of aircraft, more attention is diverted to aquiring and developing suitable AA weaponry. However, the IJN is still somewhat complacent in this regard at the start of the war, relying on their fighters rather than AA for defence. This changes very quickly once the shooting starts however, and IJN ships by the end of 42 will be sporting numerous AA weapons.

-All naval construction post 1931 is based on this doctrine, and in addition to the major units, a well planned shadow conversion program is put underway to provide light and escort carriers.
-Aircraft capacities are increased due to adoption of deck parks as on USN CVs.
-Aircraft and engine availability for the IJN is moved forward some 2-5 months.

Obviously, when the war gets started, the Allies react much differently than in the BB Variant. Late war allied aircraft also show up later.

The resulting major units are as follows;
Japan

2 x BC Kongo - 32400t - 30kts - (8 x 36cm/45) + (12 x 12.7cm/40)
-Kongo was coverted to a target ship in 1930, Hiei to a training ship in 1929.
-Both received extensive rebuilds from 1936 onwards
-All casemate mounts removed

2 x BC Kirishima - 31800t - 30kts - (8 x 36cm/45) + (12 x 12.7cm/40)
-Kirishima and Haruna, whose development is roughly as historically
-All casemate mounts removed

2 x BB Fuso - 34800t - 24kts - (12 x 36cm/45) + (14 x 14cm/50) + (8 x 12.7cm/40)
-As historical
-These can be converted to a fast 27kts BB from the beginning

2 x BB Ise - 36400t - 30kts - (8 x 36cm/45) + (12 x 12.7cm/40)
-Converted to fast BBs in 1934 with the removal of the two central turrets

2 x BB Nagato - 39000t - 27kts - (8 x 41cm/45) + (10 x 14cm/50) + (12 x 12.7cm/40)
-Reconstruction speed 27kts to act in a 'heavy division' with the Tosa's

2 x BB Tosa - 42600t - 27kts - (10 x 41cm/45) + (10 x 14cm/50) + (16 x 12.7cm/40)
-The two ships allowed for the IJN under the new treaty which allowed for two up to 43,000t ships per nation

1 x BB Harima - 41200t - 27kts - (8 x 41cm/45) + (10 x 14cm/50) + (16 x 12.7cm/40) - In Service 1927
-Post-Treaty BB built by the IJN using the spare tonnage from the new treaty. An improved version of the Nagato class

2 x BC Fuji - 41200t - 30kts - (8 x 41cm/50) + (16 x 12.7cm/40) - In Service 1934
-A pair of BCs built in the early 30s, under the limited replacement schedule agreed upon in the 1st London Treaty
-Officially 35,000tons

2 x BB Yamato - 48500t - 32kts - (9 x 41cm/50) + (24 x 12.7cm/40) - In Service 1939/40
-Pair of fast BBs built in 1936.

2 x BC Kawachi - 31200t - 34kts - (9 x 31cm/50) + (20 x 10cm/65) - In Service 1942/43
-Pair of light BCs built to act as carrier escorts and cruiser killers.
-Kawachi due late 1942
-Kazusa due early 1943


1 x CVE Hosho - 7500t - 25kts - (4 x 12cm/45) + 18 aircraft
-The IJNs first CV

2 x CV Amagi - 36000t - 31kts - (16 x 12.7cm/40) + 81 aircraft
-Both Amagi and Akagi are converted to CVs as originally planned. The 1923 eartquake is much less severe, and further from the industrial areas - so Amagi survives unharmed.

2 x CV Shokaku - 23200t - 33kts - (16 x 12.7cm/40) + 81 aircraft - In Service 1930
-A large early CV design, very successful
-Comparable to US Yorktown class

2 x CV Soryu - 27000t - 33kts - (20 x 12.7cm/40) + 90 aircraft - In Service 1938
-Larger CV design, based on
-Similar to historic Shokaku

2 x CV Hiryu - 27500t - 33kts - (20 x 12.7cm/40) + 90 aircraft - In Service 1940
-Repeat build of Soryu class

4 x CV Junyo - 28500t - 33kts - (20 x 10cm/40) + 90 aircraft - In Service 1942
-Improvement on Soryu/Hiryu class
-Junyo due early 42
-Hiyo due early 42
-Kaiyo due late 42
-Taiyo due late 42

4 x CV Taiho - 32600t - 33kts - (20 x 10cm/65) + 72 aircraft - In Service 1943/44
-New armoured CV design
-Taiho due mid 43
-Shoho due late 43
-Ryuho due early 44
-Zuiho due mid 44

6 x CV Katsuragi - 22000t - 33kts - (16 x 10cm/65) + 78 aircraft - In Service 1943-45
-New midsized CV design, based on Shokaku class
-Katsuragi/Aso due mid 43
-Kasagi/Ikoma due mid 44
-Owari/Osumi due mid 45

There is a dedicated purpose built CVL program started in 1938. It will produce a total of 6 ships due 1942-1944.

There are 4 main shadow conversion programs. All are available immediately.
1) CS conversions. There are 2 30knot and 4 32knot CS available for CVL conversion.
2) AV conversions. There are 4 20 knot AV available for CVE conversion.
3) AS conversions. There are 2 large 22knot AS available for CVE conversion.
4) AO conversions. There are 8 large 21knot, and 4 smaller 19knot AO available for CVE conversion. These ships can also convert to TK and back - decide carefully!

Because of the number of ships, two house rules I would recommend are;
-If the IJN player decides to build the two Kawachi class BCs, he must not build the last two Junyo class CVs.
-The IJN player can only have maximum of 2 CVL/BB and 4 CVE conversions underway at any one time.

Of course, these can be ignored if you want maximum carnage.

The IJN Naval Yards will be worked out so that the player can complete the early war builds with a delay if both Kawachi and the Junyos are built, though this is discouraged (see above), and then can either build the Taiho or Katsuragi class without delays, or both with. Expanding the yards helps this.

PS: Ill get some ship picture up for you guys shortly.

[JuanG]

And here is the USN Battleline, plus CCs.

Ill do the Royal Navy a little later, probably tommorow.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: JuanG

He100 (Now as the J2He - still need an allied nickname)

You might call it "Mike" (as it surely would be misidentified as a Messerschmitt at first, but the code name will stick regardless)
or "Gino" ( mistaken for an Italian design - the Fiat G.91 was nicknamed "Gina" in German service)
or just "Jack" (as the real-life J2 doesn't appear any more).

[JuanG]

I've had a busy weekend, and sadly very little of it spent on the project. Maybe this week will be better...

For the J2He, Mike it will be. I've split the design into further subvariants as per mikemikes suggestions, and the range is a little better.

Based on reading I did on this great article posted by Sheytan (tm.asp?m=2226121), I am curious as to thoughts about increasing Japanese synthetic fuel production in the Enhanced variant, to represent the success of their synthetic fuel program where historically it was a failure.

I would do this by adding 50% to Japans native oil production, with another 150% damaged (under construction). These facilities would be located in industrial centres in Japan. Full repaired (probably in '43) it would triple local production over stock WitP.

Still waiting for the patch before I release, so once again sorry for the wait.

csatahajos was kind enough to send me some artwork and designs for some more USN cruiser designs, so you'll be seeing some improvements from historical in that regard in both scenarios.

Lastly, HMS Hood. Ill do a full RN lineup once I have some real spare time...

[Akos Gergely]

Looks great ! Unfortunately Joe Wilkerson just mentioned in the patch thread that due to staffing issues the patch is delayed till next week, but it worth the wait as the surface combat now seems to be in much better shape.

Ohh, if you have it done, would you mind posting the F3 BB as well (or whichever version made it in)?

[51st Highland Div]

Looking forward to the RN lineup...rubs hands...whenever you get the free time to post...Certainly the synthetic fuel increase is interesting..just wondering how much the historical fuel shortages affected the IJN during the war...did not large parts of the IJN have to base themselves out of bases close to the direct supply of oil in the SRA [&:] A extended scenario increase of synthetic oil would allow (whatever IJN is left that is) to deploy more closer to home and the approaches of the Allies..

[JuanG]

Remember that Japan has a stronger economy in all these scenarios, so that extra fuel and oil will definately come in handy not just for the fleet but also for the economy.

Thanks for the heads up on the patch delay csatahajos, I didnt know.

I'll do a RN lineup by saturday at the latest, should have some free time then.

In the meantime, HMS Invincible, the J3 class BC;

[steveh11Matrix]

While you're looking at alternate histories and additional ships, what about the Dutch battlecruiser project? These were intended for service in the Far East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_1047_battlecruiser

A little bit of a stretch, but not more so than some... [;)]

Steve.

[51st Highland Div]

Certainly an interesting class..and would provide heavier firepower against amphib TFs landing in the SRA during the first few months of the game..would be nice to add them to a SC-TF along with PoW and Repulse [:D]

[JuanG]

I have given thought to it, but to be honest I havent decided yet.

Where does everyone think it would fit in best?

My own opinion is that if included it would only be in the BB Variant, and possibly the 'Balanced' one, and would make a nice supplement to dutch and british forces in the area (Not neccessarily PoW and Repulse...)

[51st Highland Div]

Yep i would go with the BB variant for inclusion in whatever version..possibly as a response to IJN Heavy Surface force increases in the scenario...

[Historiker]

You may look at RHS for the CV variant. Sid has put a lot of effort into research and while one may cirizise some of his results, its still very good.
You can see in the CVO scenarios, which ship classes might have been converted into carriers (CVL/CVE) in Sid's view.
He also allowed to total conversion of the existing BBs into CVs.