Sorry, but this is wrong

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
And since you will be the one making them, why can't you simply put it out as a zip? I mean, other than some mickey mouse agreement with matrix?

Bingo [8|]. I hold no rights to the game (AGSI does). I am not the publisher (Matrix is). If I release a patch against their will then I bet you won't get any more HC patches whether you pay or not. I'm not about to take that chance. Playing by most of their rules is our 'fee' for getting to work on the game. Yes, sometimes it really really sucks! But heh, we get to work on the game...

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
But I've never seen a company ask for more money to keep supporting a game, and a lot of money at that.

You haven't heard of Pradox? They stuff important bug fixes in their expansions. That's worse than what Matrix is doing.
Only redeeming factor is that pirce of Paradox games depreciate very quickly.

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: jomni

ORIGINAL: rich12545
But I've never seen a company ask for more money to keep supporting a game, and a lot of money at that.

You haven't heard of Pradox? They stuff important bug fixes in their expansions. That's worse than what Matrix is doing.
Only redeeming factor is that pirce of Paradox games depreciate very quickly.

I've heard of paradox and you can't compare them to MG. Like apples to oranges. Matrix would compare to Battlefront, Shrapnel, game companies like that. Small niche companies. And I repeat, I've never seen a company (a comparable one) ask for more money to keep supporting a game. And a lot of money at that. Check out my comparison with Battlefront and what they're doing with Shock Force.

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: TonyE

ORIGINAL: rich12545
And since you will be the one making them, why can't you simply put it out as a zip? I mean, other than some mickey mouse agreement with matrix?

Bingo [8|]. I hold no rights to the game (AGSI does). I am not the publisher (Matrix is). If I release a patch against their will then I bet you won't get any more HC patches whether you pay or not. I'm not about to take that chance. Playing by most of their rules is our 'fee' for getting to work on the game. Yes, sometimes it really really sucks! But heh, we get to work on the game...

Well, Tony, I don't know. It's hard for me to realize patches after the current one that are worth $35. Time will tell of course. But that's a lot for a patch or two. It's just way over priced. Even if you're the one making them. [:)]

[IainMcNeil]

There is a difference between support and upgrades. Support is when you fix a fundamental issue with the game that stops you playing. Upgrades are things that make it better. I'm no expert n Harpoon but I am pretty sure the vast majority of changes have been to improve the game, not fix game breaking issues, or to fix issues in the upgrades that were issued. Some people seem to have come to think upgrades are things they should get for free which is obviously unsustainable. This developer has gone way above and beyond what can reasonably be expected. It;s very easy to complain but give me an example of another game releasing updates 3 years after release. Then think about how many games dont offer updates 3 years down the line

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil
There is a difference between support and upgrades. Support is when you fix a fundamental issue with the game that stops you playing. Upgrades are things that make it better.

I agree to an extent.

Just as an example...playing a naval simulation which drops passive sonobouys actively or active sonobouys passively - that doesn't prevent you from playing the game - it's not a "game breaker" but it's a fundamental bug within the game given the context of the game which should be classified as a requirement for free support and upgrade as opposed to a paid upgrade.

So if all such issues were resolved before bundling together and reselling, then there is no issue. But if the "bundling together and reselling" will include fixes to issues like these (which aren't classified as game breaking bugs but rather irritant issues), then it's still wrong to do thi.

I'm not saying that that bug applies - I'm just pointing out that whilst it's not a game stopper, given the subject matter of the game, it is an issue that I think would be under the free "patch" approach as opposed to "included in a paid upgrade to make it better"

By the way - I asked in this thread for anyone to clarify whether all known issues to date for ANW and HCE were resolved and no-one piped up. I only asked so it could be cleared up that the game, as is, before the upgrade pack, was deemed, in the context of the game theme, to be ready for prime time.

[shauny1987]

Well I bought HCE, and there have been at least 2 official patches to that, not including all the community scenarios etc. Just purchased H:UE :DI hope the line does not end here!

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
By the way - I asked in this thread for anyone to clarify whether all known issues to date for ANW and HCE were resolved and no-one piped up.

In both cases not even close to every known issue is resolved. Nor can I imagine every issue ever being resolved but that's not what you asked. I can say with certainty since I'm the HC programmer, that in HC the answer of when is most assuredly NEVER. I have zero incentive to spend say 500 hours fixing an issue that doesn't impact my enjoyment of the game at all (and some of the items are individually 500+ hour endeavors plus any unintended side-effects that pop up).

[Nebogipfel]

I´m pretty sure, most of us do know the dilemma, Harpoon ANW stucks in.

What is a game breaking bug , what is not ?

I tried to give a short example (former post), what can happen while playing ANW.

There isn´t much to compare in the naval warfare niche until now.

So most of us did, what we can do to enjoy the game, despite the amount of bugs.

Though I was able to have fun with it, I wouldn´t have bought it this year, not knowing, that there is an ultimate edition in the pipeline.

At the end I bought a game full priced with one patch left, to resolve all the problems ANW players still know.


In opposite to my view, I know there are many players out there, who wouldn´t consider ANW as playable. Just look at other forums.

The fact, that nobody of the ANW grognards or someone of AGSi did post anything in this 5 sites long thread, says everything about the

status quo of the game.


It´s a damn bad luck for you TonyE, that your well done work with HCE (I consider so), might be putted down with all the problems ANW does

have.

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel
It´s a damn bad luck for you TonyE, that your well done work with HCE (I consider so), might be putted down with all the problems ANW does have.

You won't hear us slagging ANW, but we're pretty proud with what we have accomplished with HCE. That sim is far better today than it has ever been. [8D]

[Nebogipfel]

You won't hear us slagging ANW

that´s exactly what I said [;)]

silence tells everything [:D]

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

There is a difference between support and upgrades. Support is when you fix a fundamental issue with the game that stops you playing. Upgrades are things that make it better. I'm no expert n Harpoon but I am pretty sure the vast majority of changes have been to improve the game, not fix game breaking issues, or to fix issues in the upgrades that were issued. Some people seem to have come to think upgrades are things they should get for free which is obviously unsustainable. This developer has gone way above and beyond what can reasonably be expected. It;s very easy to complain but give me an example of another game releasing updates 3 years after release. Then think about how many games dont offer updates 3 years down the line

Iain, your post makes no sense mainly because Harpoon patches have been made by volunteers and not by devs.

To put this into perspective, lets say you and your team stopped supporting Battlefront Academy right now and a few volunteers took over support. They periodically fixed bugs and added features.

At what point would you start charging your customer base for these patches made by volunteers? Ever?

[CV32]

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel
that´s exactly what I said [;)] silence tells everything [:D]

Don't get me wrong, and I don't want to leave anyone with the wrong impression. I own ANW, but just never was an H3 aficionado, and always preferred the Classic line. If I spent half as much time with ANW, I'd be in real trouble, and I think Tony is in the same boat. [:)]

[NefariousKoel]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
I've heard of paradox and you can't compare them to MG. Like apples to oranges. Matrix would compare to Battlefront, Shrapnel, game companies like that. Small niche companies. And I repeat, I've never seen a company (a comparable one) ask for more money to keep supporting a game. And a lot of money at that. Check out my comparison with Battlefront and what they're doing with Shock Force.

Sorry, but your Battlefront argument doesn't hold up.

I bought the original CMSF boxed version a few years ago. I went to get the latest patch and Battlefront decided that they weren't supporting the physical version (published by Paradox I believe) any longer, but they are supporting their own. I was informed I'd have to pay $1 for the privilege of "upgrading" my nice non-intrusive DRM copy to the limited-install internet activation DRM nonsense they use in order to get the patch. It was insulting.

[kojusoki1]

Hi guys
I played Harpoon like 10 yrs ago last time. I had real fun and now its time to spend some time on this again. The problem is your feedeback - Im a Close Combat fan (Matrix also) and I can read the same things here what I read on the Close Combat forum. They (Matrix) are rereleasing games with the same bugs - ok, they support this but the bugs are being repaired not earlier then after a few months...

Anyway - please tell me if this version of Harpoon is now playable in multiplayer or not. I mean a nice, smooth game where you dont have to pray to play without crashes etc. No annoying things etc. Or shall I wait a few month more:)

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

ORIGINAL: rich12545
I've heard of paradox and you can't compare them to MG. Like apples to oranges. Matrix would compare to Battlefront, Shrapnel, game companies like that. Small niche companies. And I repeat, I've never seen a company (a comparable one) ask for more money to keep supporting a game. And a lot of money at that. Check out my comparison with Battlefront and what they're doing with Shock Force.

Sorry, but your Battlefront argument doesn't hold up.

I bought the original CMSF boxed version a few years ago. I went to get the latest patch and Battlefront decided that they weren't supporting the physical version (published by Paradox I believe) any longer, but they are supporting their own. I was informed I'd have to pay $1 for the privilege of "upgrading" my nice non-intrusive DRM copy to the limited-install internet activation DRM nonsense they use in order to get the patch. It was insulting.

If I had bought the Paradox version I'd be pissed too. I use that DRM and am not thrilled but put up with it.

If I only had to pay $1 for Ultimate, though, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Erik Rutins]

Rich,

You have an opinion and you are entitled to that, but that does not mean that it is fact. There is reasonable disagreement on this viewpoint, both by me and by other customers.

Regards,

- Erik

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Rich,

You have an opinion and you are entitled to that, but that does not mean that it is fact. There is reasonable disagreement on this viewpoint, both by me and by other customers.

Regards,

- Erik

I don't disagree with this. Others are stating their opinion and I'm stating mine.

The more I think about it though the more I'm wondering if Matrix is at fault. Matrix is only the publisher, not the developer. The developer is AGSI or some acronym like that. What I think might be happening is the dev is pushing this atrocity. MG has always been fair so far as I've been able to tell. Maybe it's just the devs being greedy and Matrix is forced to go along and defend. It wouldn't surprise me if Erik, who always impressed me as being a fair person, understands what's happening but is simply unable to voice his true opinion.

[mllange]

Erik,

Any chance you could reply to my email or PM sent over a week ago?

Best -

nim8or

[Erik Rutins]

Rich,

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Iain, your post makes no sense mainly because Harpoon patches have been made by volunteers and not by devs.

Harpoon has to sustain full-time developers as well, despite the fact that there are also volunteers working on the project. Please don't make me explain this again.

Regards,

- Erik