Persistence is a virtue - Encircled (sov) vs Kamil (Axis)

[KamilS]

south (12 start)

[KamilS]

defeated forward pz division

well, I should have not taken risk, sometimes less is more

[Tarhunnas]

This is interesting as you have a very unusual balance in that the German advance is very slow in the north but faster in the south. Could you perhaps post a few more zoomed out maps, it would be interesting to get an overview of the entire front.

[johnnyvagas]

He's mastered the checker board defense, that's certain. Very effective. But IMHO an overly gamey approach to operational level defense.

“Checkerboard” as WITE forum nomenclature goes, is something you would in reality commonly see at a tactical level where intervening space between tactical units are covered by fires or combat engineered works such as minefields, antitank ditches and etc. The engineered obstacles ideally also being covered by fires.

At the operational level...hmmmm...Probably units should suffer a CV or morale hit when both their nearest flanks are hanging out in the breeze and the nearest anchor points are 20 to 30 miles apart. If both flanks of a units are unanchored on either terrain or friendly units, meaning the next nearest friendly unit is some 20 to 30 miles away, the unit will of necessity form an all around defense, or a hedgehog, or insert your favorite term. A unit in an all around defense would therefore not be able to cover the same frontage as a unit that has both flanks anchored securely on the flanks of adjacent friendly units. Nor would a unit in an all around defense mode be able to influence the area around via aggressive patroling and fires (Zones of Control). Operational Level Checkerboard sort of screams out the need for ZOC being at least partly a cumulative effect on movement points. The more friendly units that are exerting a ZOC on a given hex, the greater the movement point hit against enemy units passing through the ZOC. More units is more patroling and more fires on terrain adjacent to the unit. The over effectiveness of Checkerboard defense in WITE also screams out for there being a directional orientation associated with a units combat power. A front, flank and rear to a unit. If a unit is attacked in the flank or rear it should suffer as real units did by hits to its morale or a direct hit on its CV. A units support, supply trains, artillery and etc are typically parked in the rear areas of a unit. Kill a units artillery by getting into the rear area of the unit, or destroy a units supply trains by getting into its rear area and you have succeeded in eliminating a great deal of the units combat capability.

Allow units to form an all around defense, but at the price of sacrificing its ZOC completely, or at least invoke a reduction in the MP penalty on enemy units passing through the ZOC of a unit that is in all around defense mode.

But I digress. [:D]

[KamilS]

zoom out - 12 start north

[KamilS]

zoom out - 12 start south

[KamilS]

Turn 12 - moves

Not much can be said about situation in the north. I made some attacks, but it was more out of courtesy, and I let myself be satisfied with strengthening my defences.

Centre of the front didn't see much action either. One pocket was eliminated, other finally sealed. Plan of forcing crossing through Oka river didn't work out.

As usual AGS didn't disappoint me. Kharkov and nearby units were captured, more over I managed to create one more encirclement and gain good foothold across Torets river, just north of Donetsk. My pz forces are in really bad shape, but so are Encircled's divisions, so I assume "protective" ring around surrounded units will hold.

Meanwhile Odessa garrison repulsed my first assault.

For the first time since turn 4 I managed to inflict more than 200k casualties. To make turn more satisfying I captured some industry.

[KamilS]

centre (12 end)

[KamilS]

south (12 end)

[KamilS]

Odessa (12 end)

[KamilS]

casualties (12 end)

[KamilS]

captured industry (12 end)





Overall, so far:

28 Armament, 12 Heavy Industry, 20 Vehicle and 15 Su-2

[fiva55]

I'm morbidly curious what will happen to your northern flank during the winter.

[KamilS]

fiva55

I'm morbidly curious what will happen to your northern flank during the winter.

Me too.

[Klydon]

Honestly, the Axis are going to absolutely get crushed on their flanks during a winter offensive unless they work on a couple of things in the remaining good weather turns. There is simply too much front to try to guard, etc.

First off, the huge southern flank has got to be flipped over along with Z town being taken along with getting at least to the gates of the Crimea. They still have rail service down there and even if that gets cut, they have port supply.

I have been sort of keeping my eye on this particular campaign because it features something that most of the other German 1941 campaigns does not feature and that is not having Leningrad as a 1941 priority. Nothing wrong with that, but I think it is apparent that area can't be ignored either as the last couple of turns have shown. I think the idea has merit. The Germans can commit minimal forces to the area and probably build a line along the two lakes south of Narva and use Pskov as an anchor over to Lake of Ilmen or so this is how I would approach it to start with. Not doing this now has Russians running nuts attacking from the north.

The Axis face some interesting choices because while the flanks are crumbling, the situation is becoming ripe in the middle for a huge battle of encirclement between the southern wing of armies and the northern wing. Think of it as Kursk on steroids. Linking up a move like that (provided you could pull it off) would flip a huge amount of territory and go a long way with stabilizing the middle to a point. How many Russians it would bag remains to be seen and my guess would be not a whole lot from what I am seeing. Not doing it and leaving it through mud and snow would be a disaster however imo.

Quite interesting. [:D]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: johnnyvagas

He's mastered the checker board defense, that's certain. Very effective. But IMHO an overly gamey approach to operational level defense.

You're not being fair with Encircled [:)] As Alfonso said the Frontier District Massacres (aka the German mega pockets) are POSSIBLE because of the CHECKERBOARD thing. Yes, the Germans use a checkerboard to surround the Soviet hordes on the first turns [;)] From the screenshots I can clearly see what is Encircled's strategy (very familiar because I did the same). He is heavily defending Leningrad and Moscow. In the south, he lets his opponent do whatever he wants... I did the same. So the checkerboard in the south is because a) he is too weak and b) this is tank country.

And Kamil, why are you soooo "anti-north" (aka Leningrad area) strategy? [:)]

[KamilS]

TulliusDetritus

And Kamil, why are you soooo "anti-north" (aka Leningrad area) strategy?

I have got impression, that it won't be possible for me to advance rapidly in all 3 sectors, and north offered much less opportunity for inflicting high casualties. I was curious as well, if my plan from previous game is essentially flawed or it was about its execution. I know Leningrad is valuable but I preferred to hunt for soviet divisions instead.

But since fateful turn 5 and destruction of mot corps and serious hammering of other pz units in AGC sector I had to abandon any plans to do anything in Pskov and Leningrad direction.


But to be honest, at the end of the day it was my deep desire to attack, attack and maybe attack little more, and after serious calculations I worked out, that clean terrain is better than forests and swamps to do it. [;)]

[KamilS]

Turn 13 - start

During Encircled's move only significant fighting took place in AGN area, and even there it wasn't half as intensive as it was in previous turns. In areas of my attack old defensive positions were abandoned and new were recreated, particularly formidable near Kalinin and Tula.

When I compared strength of Encircled's defences with offensive potential of my battered units I realised, that heroics of two previous turns won't be reproduced soon.

[KamilS]

centre (13 start)

[KamilS]

south (13 start)