Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A)

[Cap Mandrake]

Plus...there is always the opportunity to interecept the kamikazes after the attack.[:)]

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

rader, earlier in the game you marched a big army (five divisions?) across the Owen Stanley mountains in New Guinea.  Why would you worry about aircraft altitudes if you were comfortable doing that? 

P.S. It's hard to read the "tone" in an email - If I could convey my tone here, it would be curiosity only, not accusatory.

I think Caneorebel there is a search for the "holy grail" of Home rules, screnario, and strategy which tries to balance the intitial question that the Japanese made a huge blunder on Dec 7th. If the Allies are patient and can masochisticstically take the punishment like GreyJoy did .. India, China ...the big Green Industrial machine will prevail. So I have come to discover that WitP AE is not a game per se, but a movie where the players might play their parts differently but the ending is always the same. I think Rader as come to the same conclusion with his personaiity sort inventory posting of IJFB and AFB's types ...[;)]

Home rules to bork 4E's attacking ground troops ala Operation Corbra and other rules try to give the IJFB a fighting chance of victory but unless the Allies suffer SCLS .. the script is written and in 1944 so much stuff comes even under scenario #2 the Allies just pick the time and place of the final battles. NOTE: Nemo's downfall scenario is a special alternate history of maximum pilots, no atomic bombs etc that demonstrates with the right stuff a IJFB could defend the homelands .. but that is not going to happen in a CG ..

As for the unified command problem for the Allies .. Given the ahistorical unified IJ command and scenario #2 I see the conversation going like this..

President Roosevelt: " Well the LYB's have rolled over India and China .. they're beating us everywhere!"
General McAruthur: "I can invade the Phillpines sometime in '45 and cutoff the DEI"
Admeral Nimitz: "We can cut off Japan from all industries and starve 'em out if we land on Formosa but we have to sink the KB first.."

Much chatter goes on ....

A medium build Colonel inturrupts the chatter ...

Curtis LeMay: "Screw cutting them off ..If you put my bombers within range of the Home Islands .. I will burn the island to the ground! It will not matter how much oil makes it thorugh those borked submarines -- no factories .. no airplanes .. "

President Roosevelt: Wow sounds like a plan .. Nimitz .. where is this possible ..

Nimitz: Hmmm Hokkaido is in range of almost everything! Even our fighters .. Curtis did you not mention something about a B-29? [Nimitz thinks to hinself ; heck I was planning on killing off the USAAF by invading the Marianas and having those boys attack Japan unescorted' [8|] ]

President Roosevelt: "Wow! Let's do it .. but I am am against this whole burn every thing to the ground obsession you have Curtis.. I want to end this war not make the IJ mad ...I mean we have to leave behind enough factories and people so they can make cheap cars and stuff .. .. OK you can bomb them into submission but no strategic bombing below 20K now Curtis and nothing sneeky like going in at night and using our superior radar and stuff ..."

["Hap" Arnold Leaves the room ..] " No need for me here ...." 20K feet .. Bah! I can ride one of those bombers in at 1000 feet and set all the oil storage ablze!"

Curtis LeMay: [Grumble Grumble Grumble] "Ok I still think I can burn the Home Islands to the ground even with both hands tied behind my back ..!"

All Together: "It's agreed!"

.....

[Brtish sounding vocie in the background with many officers pointing at maps and stuff] "in a desperate gamble and so it was agreed to make the bold move to invade Hokkaido ... old film clips of Shindin factories being set ablaze ..]

[;)]

[jeffk3510]

[:D][:D]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: rader

ORIGINAL: pauk

is gamey to use northern route and conquer Hokkaido in 44? Is it game to attack and conquer India? Is it gamey to play Sir Robin defence?

This is a good point. I would say that these are not gamey in that they probably shouldn't be disallowed - it should be up to the allied player to choose what to do with their forces. But I do get the sense that these are certainly "ahistorical" in that the player here is the *supreme dictator* with total strategic command of all their forces. Since there is no haggling to be done with other services or nations and no real lives at risk, players can conduct much of of an "all-in" aggressive attack. Would the allied snap invasion of Hokkaido in 1944 made it past all the checks and balances to be carried out historically? Would the allies have virtually abandonned the pacific or almost all of india to the Japanese advance? I very, very much doubt it. But I certainly don't think Greyjoy acted innapropriately in the least.

That being said, I do think the game could use some more rewards and penalties for these kind of actions and certainly a more detailed political system. I mean, we know the name and individual statistics of each pilot, but there are no more political details concerning grand stategic goals and inter-service/inter-allied cooperation than restricted commands and Russia doesn't activate until August 1945? That strikes me as really odd...

Or would the Soviets not attacked Manchuria if the Japanese stripped every available unit up to the artificial game limit for action in other theaters.

Or should the Japanese players be allowed to combine the use of Army aircraft with Navy?

You are right there are just too many things to consider. I think a few HRs are a good idea. But I am wary of too many. HRs just lead to confusion and arguments and end friendships. It is better yet to maintain a spirit of cooperation and keep open the possibility to discuss issues as they arise and make adjustments.

But yes, I am no fan of the high altitude sweep and the kamis at max altitide seems to be a bit of an issue. However, that does not mean that I would not do it if I were in your shoes right now....[:D]

[JeffroK]

I believe that in this game the search for any panacea tactic or strategy is bound to fail.
 
Kamis at 100ft or at 43kft wont win a war, a mix of approach heights splitting the CAP might see a raid get through a gap. get a tactic working now as you will need one for any further invasions on the Home Islands.
 
Just like ideas on CAP, LRAP, Sweeping & Escorts, IMHO the different aircraft perform best in different roles and a combine approach will work best, its a bugger when your sweep or CAP doesnt fly so speading the possiblilities helps.
 
I notice a dearth of help here versus what happens at Greyjoys thread.
 
I would imagine that JFB would be flocking here to help, after all many will face a similar situtation in late war and developing strategies might be of assistance to them.
 
As always, not knowing your full situation makes it hard to comment. (And I'll avoid specifics for a bit longer until time passes in the game, but I notice nemo is dropping hints here as well)
 
Do you have a plan?      IMVHO, having KB swan around is just using fuel and you might get unlucky.  A serious counterinvasion somewhere might create more reaction than you invested?
 
What, in your opinion, will dramatically slow down GJ??    From your experience of playing him, what will make GJ panic.
 
Keep bashing on, whereas many games have a slow switch from japan supreme to allies supreme, you had your switch in a matter of a few weeks.
 
The end game can be exciting, but there are still many bad days ahead.
 
 
 

[rader]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Curtis LeMay: "Screw cutting them off ..If you put my bombers within range of the Home Islands .. I will burn the island to the ground! It will not matter how much oil makes it thorugh those borked submarines -- no factories .. no airplanes .. "

President Roosevelt: Wow sounds like a plan .. Nimitz .. where is this possible ..

Nimitz: Hmmm Hokkaido is in range of almost everything! Even our fighters .. Curtis did you not mention something about a B-29? [Nimitz thinks to hinself ; heck I was planning on killing off the USAAF by invading the Marianas and having those boys attack Japan unescorted' [8|] ]

President Roosevelt: "Wow! Let's do it .. but I am am against this whole burn every thing to the ground obsession you have Curtis.. I want to end this war not make the IJ mad ...I mean we have to leave behind enough factories and people so they can make cheap cars and stuff .. .. OK you can bomb them into submission but no strategic bombing below 20K now Curtis and nothing sneeky like going in at night and using our superior radar and stuff ..."

["Hap" Arnold Leaves the room ..] " No need for me here ...." 20K feet .. Bah! I can ride one of those bombers in at 1000 feet and set all the oil storage ablze!"

Curtis LeMay: [Grumble Grumble Grumble] "Ok I still think I can burn the Home Islands to the ground even with both hands tied behind my back ..!"

All Together: "It's agreed!"

.....

[Brtish sounding vocie in the background with many officers pointing at maps and stuff] "in a desperate gamble and so it was agreed to make the bold move to invade Hokkaido ... old film clips of Shindin factories being set ablaze ..]

[;)]

Nice!

[rader]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I believe that in this game the search for any panacea tactic or strategy is bound to fail.

Kamis at 100ft or at 43kft wont win a war, a mix of approach heights splitting the CAP might see a raid get through a gap. get a tactic working now as you will need one for any further invasions on the Home Islands.

Just like ideas on CAP, LRAP, Sweeping & Escorts, IMHO the different aircraft perform best in different roles and a combine approach will work best, its a bugger when your sweep or CAP doesnt fly so speading the possiblilities helps.

I notice a dearth of help here versus what happens at Greyjoys thread.

I would imagine that JFB would be flocking here to help, after all many will face a similar situtation in late war and developing strategies might be of assistance to them.

As always, not knowing your full situation makes it hard to comment. (And I'll avoid specifics for a bit longer until time passes in the game, but I notice nemo is dropping hints here as well)

Do you have a plan?      IMVHO, having KB swan around is just using fuel and you might get unlucky.  A serious counterinvasion somewhere might create more reaction than you invested?

What, in your opinion, will dramatically slow down GJ??    From your experience of playing him, what will make GJ panic.

Keep bashing on, whereas many games have a slow switch from japan supreme to allies supreme, you had your switch in a matter of a few weeks.

The end game can be exciting, but there are still many bad days ahead.

I have a plan... of sorts. Although it's pretty reactionary and mostly invovled trying to shoot down lots of allied planes. So far it's not going that well, because I can't get my fighters to actually engage his planes. I'm getting a ton of planes into combat (i.e., they show up in the animation), but only a small fraction of these actually seem to shoot at his bombers (or fighters). Most don't seem to join the combat at all. We typically get extremely unbloody air to air combat, with losses on the order of a few percent per battle. It wasn't like this with smaller battles... I wonder if there's a bug with how air to air combat upsales to really big fights?

It seems to me that if he were flying over Japanese territory, I would get to harass him for longer on the way out at least. Yet only about half the time (or less) is there even an after-combat fight, and it's usually short.

[JeffroK]

As the game only plays point to point you dont get a chance to intercept half way, which might also see more attackers as the shorer ranged aircraft like the Spit VIII get a chance at you, Bombing the Reich game has this modelled. You may be right about the large air battles, though I play Downfall and get some great furballs, maybe the way your game has gone creates odd results.
 
But can you win a war of attrition in the air?  How else can you lower his sortie rates?
 
I was thinking more of a plan to hit at his bases or LOC, you still have a substantial Navy which can cause a lot of pain. You still have a lot of LCU to play with.
 
Has GJ stripped out his LCU from India, Australia etc which you could take advantage of?
 
As a newbie, does GJ have some buttons to press, as he doesnt have 100% knowledge of the abilities of the japanese player can you scare him into immobility or into making a mistake.
 
I suppose a lot of questions, but in amongst them might be a spark to find an effective approach. At least you can write the thoughts off if they are impracticable.

[desicat]

Can't kick him out of Hokkaido, can't defeat the Allied Death Star, and can't seem to coordinate Japanese fighters over the HI's - what to do?

Everything he does seems to revolve around getting supplies to Hokkaido, how can you stop this? It is protected by the Allied Death Star, can you lure it away? The Japanese actually did this at Leyte Gulf and almost got their BB's in amongst the Allied invasion force.

I am sorry to ask the obvious but is your submarine force interdicting his supply lane? He is busy hitting your factories, but is he protecting his airfields and supply centers? Can you bomb his supply on Hokkaido?

Otherwise it looks like a war of attrition in the air, can you win it?

[rader]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

As the game only plays point to point you dont get a chance to intercept half way, which might also see more attackers as the shorer ranged aircraft like the Spit VIII get a chance at you, Bombing the Reich game has this modelled. You may be right about the large air battles, though I play Downfall and get some great furballs, maybe the way your game has gone creates odd results.

But can you win a war of attrition in the air?  How else can you lower his sortie rates?

I was thinking more of a plan to hit at his bases or LOC, you still have a substantial Navy which can cause a lot of pain. You still have a lot of LCU to play with.

Has GJ stripped out his LCU from India, Australia etc which you could take advantage of?

As a newbie, does GJ have some buttons to press, as he doesnt have 100% knowledge of the abilities of the japanese player can you scare him into immobility or into making a mistake.

I suppose a lot of questions, but in amongst them might be a spark to find an effective approach. At least you can write the thoughts off if they are impracticable.

I think I can at least stay in the air war of attrition (but not win it) until 3/45 when the P-47N arrives. Once that happens, the allies will have complete control of the skies. He's hit my advanced fighter production hard, but I can still chrun out droves of Zeros and Tojos. Not great, but does provide the bulk.

His chain of bases in the Kuriles and Aleutians means that he is never out of range of a whole bunch of allied airbases. How in that situation can I raid his LOC?

He was a newbie, but I don't think anyone could call him a newbie anymore. I only have one more (partial) game than he does. Anyone who plays this game for even a year of game time can't really be called a newbie.

I suspect he has taken all land units from everywhere and dropped them into Hokkaido. But what good would attacking Australia do now? I need to have most of my land units available to oppose his in the home islands.

[rader]

ORIGINAL: desicat
I am sorry to ask the obvious but is your submarine force interdicting his supply lane? He is busy hitting your factories, but is he protecting his airfields and supply centers? Can you bomb his supply on Hokkaito?

Otherwise it looks like a war of attrition in the air, can you win it?

My subs are interdicting his supplies a bit, but they aren't very good at it because he uses big convoys and protects them with land based air along the whole route. That's a recipe to get the subs killed for nothing.

Bomb his supply? He must have millions of supply points. I know for sure he's got the UFO spitfire VIIIs protecting his airfields. I can't spare the fighters to escort them.

Basically it is a war of attrition in the air. I can't win, but I think I can hang on for another year. In 1945, I get tons of land unit reinforcements (50 divisions or so). My armament and vehicle pools are pretty full, and I'm just going to concentrate on building out my land units and hope they are enough to save the home islands from an invasion, even if all my cities are reduced to rubble from the air.

[desicat]

What is your goal at this point, hold and try to just prolong the conflict and try to survive or do you have something else in mind?

Your objective will drive your actions. Attack or defend? Denial or attrition?

[desicat]

Basically it is a war of attrition in the air. I can't win, but I think I can hang on for another year. In 1945, I get tons of land unit reinforcements (50 divisions or so). My armament and vehicle pools are pretty full, and I'm just going to concentrate on building out my land units and hope they are enough to save the home islands from an invasion, even if all my cities are reduced to rubble from the air.

GJ isn't as experienced as you so he may miss something or fall for something. If you can't win then you have nothing to lose.

Subs, CV's, Surface TF's, and Kamikaze's, you have to be able to do something with all those assets. I have no suggestions without further insights....

[rader]

ORIGINAL: desicat

What is your goal at this point, hold and try to just prolong the conflict and try to survive or do you have something else in mind?

Your objective will drive your actions. Attack or defend? Denial or attrition?

Just survive [:D]

[rader]

ORIGINAL: desicat

Basically it is a war of attrition in the air. I can't win, but I think I can hang on for another year. In 1945, I get tons of land unit reinforcements (50 divisions or so). My armament and vehicle pools are pretty full, and I'm just going to concentrate on building out my land units and hope they are enough to save the home islands from an invasion, even if all my cities are reduced to rubble from the air.

GJ isn't as experienced as you so he may miss something or fall for something. If you can't win then you have nothing to lose.

Subs, CV's, Surface TF's, and Kamikaze's, you have to be able to do something with all those assets. I have no suggestions without further insights....

Can't use navy kamikazes as I have no extra pilots (even innexperienced ones, I actually can't draw any). I don't think kamikazes would have much of a chance to get through and there aren't any juicy targets to go after.

Basically I would like to keep those assets to keep him honest. I'm a real fleet in being proponent. Don't want to lose it unless I can be sure of inflicting significantly disproportionate attrition.

[rader]

ORIGINAL: desicat
If you can't win then you have nothing to lose.

I wouldn't say I can't win for sure, but the odds are pretty long...

I think I do have a lot to lose by throwing away the fleet. The potential gains just aren't worth the potential returns.

My goal is to hold Honshu until 1946. Not sure if I actually can do this (he may be too strong), but it's pretty much my strategy.

[desicat]

Rader, Hope you didn't take my comments as negative. I would never suggest you throw away the fleet, I was just fishing for what your intentions were. His taking Hokkaido and the northern island chain leaves you few options, that is why I was only stating the obvious.

It will be interesting to watch to see if you can hang on till 46, good luck!

[rader]

ORIGINAL: desicat

Rader, Hope you didn't take my comments as negative. I would never suggest you throw away the fleet, I was just fishing for what your intentions were. His taking Hokkaido and the northern island chain leaves you few options, that is why I was only stating the obvious.

It will be interesting to watch to see if you can hang on till 46, good luck!

I didn't take them as negative at all, thanks for the help [:)]. I appreciate any and all advice, but I may not implement it. If gets aggresive and uses his fleet, I will commit. But I'm not going to waltz into his defensive zone (Kuriles/Aleutians/Hokkaido) and impale myself.

[JeffroK]

You must be reading GJ's thread, his second favourite word is can't.
 
But look what he did!!
 
Use your VLR recce to find gaps or weak spots, if he has millions of men on Hokkaido he might have Bn sized garrisons elsewhere.
 
As for an offensive into OZ, in WW1 & 2 late war counteroffensives nearly broke the back of the Allies, it may create come panic, it may relieve some pressure on the HI, it may achieve nothing. But as nothing is happening now except you getting pounded into dust it would be hard to come out worse.  But recce first, pick your target and make sure its achievable
 
Rather than wait for his Strat Bombers, can you hit back??  Maybe a few small raids to see what CAP he has up, you may get him to fly more CAP which means fewer escorts which could mean less damage.
 
Have you tried midget subs, maybe a only a bit of damage but he may pull back to a more reward base.
 
PS whats happening in the war?? 

[rader]

What's his favourite word?

Yeah, I'm planning to build out my midget subs soon (they are in the pool with delay coming back from the Solomons).

What do you mean what's happening? I'm mostly focused on the air war and on building up Formosa & Ryukus, with the Philippines and Marianas also fairly high on the list.