Razing the Reich

[mmarquo]

Yes, but in 1941 you will break right through them....

[randallw]

CVs of 50 or 75? Do you mean defensive CVs?

[janh]

Sounds a bit like a case of FoW, though with picking the few really somewhat better infantry divisions and getting some level 2-3 forts up, it could be possible. In that case you need time, i.e. Axis arrive later than the typical turn 3 at the land bridge.

Even if Axis gets there by turn 3 -- and unlike in history-- is at large in shape to push on, I think this push must be contested. If Axis send 1 Panzergruppe from PG 2 and 3 south and north, it can really win some time to fortify the closer terrain around Moscow. At worst, Axis would have to wait a turn or two until the infantry comes up to breach the lines, but winning two turns is even better than two mud turns. Axis may even have to flex around the landbrigde thru the hills and woods to the north (Rshev), or cross a Djenpr and several minor rivers to the south of Smolensk. If nothing, this costs Axis more MPs, which means winning terrain and time. SHC is definitely getting a pounding on the landbridge, though, and its is surely poor defensive terrain. But at least the terrain means somewhat easier establishment of your flank security. I don't think surrendering it and holding closer to Rhev-Vjasma-Brijansk right away is often so much better.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Wow.

Red Army is just going to blow up now. You might even run into supply issues in 42, try not to lose any more HI.

I think sitting tight is the right way to go. Frankly, you don't even need to run a full bore blizzard counteroffensive. That's just going to get you out of your forts and terrain features and strain your logistics. Keep the rifle divisions sitting tight and send out your cavalry and tank brigades forward to maintain contact with him and encourage him to keep retreating. When March hits, your mobile units can fade back to the interior and make him waste time taking back this buffer zone. You won't get many guards this way, but whatever. He's not going to get anywhere either, and then you just wait until 43 to roll out Red Army 2.0.

Pelton just doesn't get the attrition or grinding part of the game at all. Axis can easily maintain 5:1+ loss ratios until blizzard in 41 if they just keep pounding away. Deliberate assaults with the landsers are no joke. The worst thing you can do is what he's doing and give the Soviets a free ride. He's not pressuring your replacement situation at all. Your armament pools may never bottom out, either.

Don't count Pelton out of this game yet! [;)]

I don't know his OOB strength but I suspect that it is high (in both men and tanks)... the 1942 might be very interesting here regardless of Red Army size and numbers...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Michael T]

Quick update. I have just finished the second mud turn (T19) and Pelton is in a fully fledged flight back to Poland it would seem, who knows where he will stop. I think its nuts, but who knows, it is certainly unexpected. I thought he would run in the blizzard, but he has been running from turn 16/17. Maps at the end of the mud.

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: janh

Sounds a bit like a case of FoW, though with picking the few really somewhat better infantry divisions and getting some level 2-3 forts up, it could be possible. In that case you need time, i.e. Axis arrive later than the typical turn 3 at the land bridge.

Even if Axis gets there by turn 3 -- and unlike in history-- is at large in shape to push on, I think this push must be contested. If Axis send 1 Panzergruppe from PG 2 and 3 south and north, it can really win some time to fortify the closer terrain around Moscow. At worst, Axis would have to wait a turn or two until the infantry comes up to breach the lines, but winning two turns is even better than two mud turns. Axis may even have to flex around the landbrigde thru the hills and woods to the north (Rshev), or cross a Djenpr and several minor rivers to the south of Smolensk. If nothing, this costs Axis more MPs, which means winning terrain and time. SHC is definitely getting a pounding on the landbridge, though, and its is surely poor defensive terrain. But at least the terrain means somewhat easier establishment of your flank security. I don't think surrendering it and holding closer to Rhev-Vjasma-Brijansk right away is often so much better.

I am on the road right now so I dont have the screenshots but it wasnt fog of war. There was one very large assault where I hit him with 6 fully rested infantry divisions of 9th army and got a hold. Next turn was a little better but its gonna be a tough road. I am sure he filtered all of his repacements to his landbridge army but did a much better job of it then I usually do. I was planning on doing an AAR but so far my progress is typica of banging your head against the wall of a good Soviet playerl and nothing really different to report [:D]

[Flaviusx]

Ketza, if he's massing on the landbridge he won't be able to defend Leningrad in any great force. There's not enough early on to properly contest both places. You either send the reserve armies one place or the other. So smash him north of Vitebsk and then turn the center around Velikiye Luki after pushing past Pskov towards Leningrad.

Michael, if he's running to Poland this will be an interesting exercise in self restraint on your part. I know how I would respond to this but I'm doubting it fits your temperament.

[Michael T]

Well, he has me thinking.

[mmarquo]

Resist temptation: do not do it.

I did and got my ass handed to me by a monstrous Panzer fist: my opponent amassed everyone of his well-rested Panzer/MTZ units into an unstoppable chainsaw; I was saved only by mud. In the end it did not matter because I made up the losses in 2 turns but still, it is a bad day to open up a turn and see 10 - 20 divisions ensnared in a 1942 Panzer trap.

Your army is still more fragile than you think...becareful.


Mark

[randallw]

I suppose you can keep marching west a bit, just to regain territory and force him to reconvert the hexes once he ( Pelton ) goes back on the offensive and use up some MPs.

[mmarquo]

Yes: the trick is to get a picket line next to him so he will lose more due to attrition; but do not overexpose. The Soviet army in 1942 is a true paper tiger.

[Ketza]

Here is the battle I mentioned.

[janh]

Modified AV only 40% better, despite being thrice the number of much better trained units.

But: No German against 701 russian tanks, of which surely not all where BT-5/7, T-26 and other obsolete types, at this point in time when German ID had a best poor AT capabilities against heavier tanks (37mm, or a few 88mm AAA if attached)! This probably one of the combats one should watch (ideally replay) with more message details.

Looking at the casualties, your ID still did do good damage: 108 AFV!

[mmarquo]

Also no air, virtually no artillery and only one pioneer (status)?

[Michael T]

Your opponent is relying on that front line holding. Not much depth. Surely a breakthrough with gased up Mech units would be a major disaster for him. I would like to take this guy on sometime if he does server games.

[Michael T]

Looking at this situation again I probably would have gone through the hex 2 hexes to the south (open ground) of where you attacked, and then pushed through the open ground hexes and turned up behind these guys in the woods.

[Michael T]

End Soviet Turn 21 (6 Nov 1941) Mud

Well, will the running stop now we have snow on T22. I have half kind of tempted an attack from his units in front of Smolensk. He has always professed he likes to start his 'AP Crunch' in Nov 41. So trying to make an offering to lure him forward again. He seems prepared for it. Hopefully it won't blow up in my face…

I have his T22 in the box but can't open it till I get home later on.

Sov OOB 5.96
Sov Cas 2.1
Sov Dis 780
Sov Man 2848
Tr Pool 216
Tr Units 132
Tr Repair 48
Total Tr 396

Ger OOB 3.38
Ger Cas 0.53
Ger Dis 351
OP AFV 2125

[Michael T]

Nope, he is still running. Will report again at end of snow or some change in attitude.

[mmarquo]

Michael,

Becareful....your army is a paper tiger....


Marquo

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Nope, he is still running. Will report again at end of snow or some change in attitude.

Ah the chicken!

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Michael,

Becareful....your army is a paper tiger....

Marquo

The thing is -if he is truly heading for Poland (chicken!!)- paper tiger or not, he will spend half of the summer offensive approaching the Soviet lines. Then Michael still can afford land. By the end of 1942 the many Stavka/Fronts/Armies HQs cocktail cabinets should be necessarily closer to Berlin than their historical counterparts.