Struggling in the East - SigUp vs. loki

[timmyab]

In a sane world that attack would have zero chance of success and a high probability of causing mass casualties to the Soviets. The initial odds are 1:6.
I've said it often enough in the past but I don't think forts should be reducable below the one level. A one level fort should represent the natural advantage a defender has after they've become familiar with a defensive position for a while, dug foxholes and pre-sighted their weapons etc. These are things that no amount of sappers can change.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

Right now the sector between Kaluga and Tula is worrisome. Half of 4th Army was badly mauled by a counterattack (the one you saw above was part of it). Two divisions were encircled and most of them are 5-6 CV ants. It will be no problem to relieve them, but the offensive there is pretty much over. Can't do much more than dig in for the blizzard. I fear Tula will hold out. Does it make any sense to construct some fort zones right now?

Maybe in the north if it relives some infantry .

4th army for me is the army that cracks Moskow defenses head on, it has 4 divisions
that you can get above 85+ fast ( 7, 17, 23, 78 sturm ), 4 around 80 (292,293, 252,258 )
and 4 around 77-78 after the battle of Byalostok Minsk is over .

After 7 turns (august) the divisions train up ,and even the weak ones pack 9 cv .

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

First of all, can somebody enlighten me why those units didn't benefit from the fort bonus on their base unadjusted CV?

I've seens this a number of times and always in clear and with fort 1 and no i cant give any explanation on it sorry Sigup.

Prolly wouldnt have matter in end result as u can remove fort in combat and its end CV aka modCV that counts for odds.
One of teh many "quirks" in the combat system. How many other games do remove the defender multipliers before doing odd.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[SigUp]

Turn 15: 25th September 1941 - 1st October 1941

Army Group North



On 25th September, after a preparatory artillery and Luftwaffe strike, 4th Panzer Group and elements of 9th Army began the offensive to evict the Soviets out of the Valdai Hill. The Soviet units were incapable of withstanding the German assault and by noon of the next day a lane separating the divisions near the Volga and Torzhok had been created. Von Manstein's LVI. AK (mot.) stormed through the gap and on the 29th September Torzhok fell to a massed assault by the entire corps. Reinhardt's XXXXI. AK (mot.) advanced northwest behind the cover provided by LVI. AK (mot.) and on 30th September forward elements of 6th Panzer Division reached the Shlina. While the offensive was underway Stalin on 28th September, not wanting to risk yet another encirclement, gave Northwest and Northern Front permission to withdraw. Three days later both fronts completely emptied the Valdai region and thus Army Group North completed its objective in a single week.

Around the same time 4th Panzer Group's third motorized corps moved towards Kalinin, which was held by two rifle divisions. On the evening of the 27th 2nd and 5th Panzer Division reached the outskirts of the city and by the next morning began to systematically attack the Soviet 334th and 344th Rifle Division. Supported by heavy Luftwaffe bombardments the city fell two days later, securing Army Group Centre's northern flank.

Army Group Centre



While Army Group North's divisions drove deep into enemy territory, Army Group Centre's divisions north of Tula were engaged in a bitter and bloody struggle. Spearheaded by the elite I. and XX. AK the Germans broke down the Soviet lines in front of Moscow inch by inch, constantly under threat by opportunistic Soviet counterattacks. On 27th September 19th Panzer Division at the Moskva-Volga Canal was subject of an assault led by 55th Army. Unable to withstand the pressure the division had retreat west on 1st October, losing 40 tanks in the process. [Note 1] Three days later 58th and 32nd Infantry Division were driven out of their only recently conquered positions. [Note 2]

The real hammer, however, fell against 4th Army's IX. and LIII. AK between Oka and Tula. On 26th September three divisions of the Soviet 13th and 3rd Armies made it over the Oka and attacked 292nd Infantry Division dug in 10 miles behind the river. Surprised by this development the division was forced to retreat on the 29th. [Note 3] Similarly 167th and 112th Infantry Division were overwhelmed by troops of the Soviet 10th Army and had to give up their positions on 1st October. With that 137th and 263rd Infantry Division were cut off between Oka and Ula.

South of Orel, however, things looked better for Army Group Centre. After 2nd Army's infantry broke through the Soviet lines on 27th September, Guderian's panzers drove into the rear of Bryansk Front's troops standing at Kursk. Three days later the trap closed, when XXXXVI. AK (mot.) of 1st Panzer Group completed its swing north and made contact with Army Group Centre's divisions. Once again 12 Soviet divisions were encircled, robbing the Red Army of its only potent defensive force between Livny and Valuyki.

Army Group South



Aside from 6th Army and 1st Panzer Group's northern swing to close the Kursk pocket, the fighting was very limited in Army Group South's sector. The Crimea was hit by heavy rainfalls, while 11th Army was in the process of preparing an assault into Rostov. In the last September days German reconnaissance further reported Soviet disengagement from the Oskol east, behind the Krasnaya.

[Note 1: Initial CV 238 - 97. Modified CV 164 - 259]

[Note 2: Initial CV 109 - 130 and 82 - 89. Modified CV 54 - 330 and 32 - 206. The Red Army doesn't really need the +1 rule to successfully counterattack. I can live with those results, although the CV cuts for my divisions are tough to watch.]

[Note 3: Initial CV 133 - 71. Modified CV 82 - 127.]

[swkuh]

Appreciate yours & Loki's AAR commentaries, very instructive & well presented. Believe you've experimented with the "balance" factors before this game, so what settings for this game and why?

Myself, playing AI as Axis, set 110, 90, 90, 90... Sov all 100's. Some time in '43 think I'd penalize the Soviets a bit.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: rrbill

Myself, playing AI as Axis, set 110, 90, 90, 90... Sov all 100's. Some time in '43 think I'd penalize the Soviets a bit.

the 110 morale is huge , nothing can compensate for that ... the axis end up with a monster army in turn 1 .

[SigUp]

Monthly Report: September 1941


Frontline 1st October 1941

Losses

The bloody battles around Moscow in September 1941 further increased German losses. All in all the Wehrmacht and its Allies suffered a net loss of around 150.000 men. 58.018 dead, 905 captured. Likewise artillery and AFV losses soared with 1.635 and 604 respectively. The Luftwaffe also had to endure a high number of plane losses with 125 fighters, 31 fighter bombers, 69 tactical bombers, 157 level bombers and 91 reconnaissance aircraft.

Soviet losses in the same month amounted to over 573.000 men with 59.062 killed in action and another 306.390 walking into German POW camps. Artillery losses numbered 8.145 pieces while 1.274 AFVs were lost. In the air the VVS reported 1.360 fighter bombers, 132 tactical bombers, and 503 level bombers destroyed.

OOB

Heeresgruppe Nord (v. Leeb)

16. Armee (Busch) - 208.394 men, 2.117 guns, 0 AFVs
II. AK (v. Brockdorff-Ahlefeldt) - 4 infantry divisions
X. AK (Hansen) - 4 infantry divisions
LI. AK (Reinhard) - 4 infantry divisions

18. Armee (v. Küchler) - 228.907 men, 2.493 guns, 0 AFVs
VI. AK (Laux) - 3 infantry divisions
XXVI. AK (Wodrig) - 3 infantry divisions
XXVIII. AK (v. Wiktorin) - 3 infantry divisions
L. AK (Lindemann) - 3 infantry divisions

Panzergruppe 4 (Hoepner) - 223.895 men, 2.291 guns, 766 AFVs
V. AK (Ruoff) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXX. AK (mot.) (Stumme) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 SS motorized brigade
XXXXI. AK (mot.) (Reinhardt) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized division
LVI. AK (mot.) (v. Manstein) - 1 panzer division, 1 motorized division, 1 SS divisions

Heeresgruppe Mitte (v. Bock)

2. Armee (v. Weichs) - 222.781 men, 2.472 guns, 32 AFVs
1. K.D.
8. SS-K.B.
XII. AK (Schroth) - 4 infantry divisions
XIII. AK (Angelis) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXV. AK (Kämpfe) - 4 infantry divisions

4. Armee (v. Kluge) - 218.128 men, 2.613 guns, 38 AFVs
VII. AK (Fahrmbacher) - 3 infantry divisions
IX. AK (Hell) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXXIII. AK (Heinrici) - 3 infantry divisions
LIII. AK (Weisenberger) - 3 infantry divisions

9. Armee (Strauss) - 249.049 men, 2.881 guns, 34 AFVs
VIII. AK (Heitz) - 3 infantry divisions
XX. AK (Materna) - 4 infantry divisions
XXIII. AK (Stemmermann) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXXII. AK (Mieth) - 3 infantry divisions

Panzergruppe 2 (Guderian) - 161.245 men, 1.718 guns, 526 AFVs
XXIV. AK (mot.) (v. Schweppenburg) - 2 panzer divisions, 2 motorized divisions
XXXXVII. AK (mot.) (Lemelsen) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized divisions

Panzergruppe 3 (Hoth) - 248.261 men, 2.578 guns, 503 AFVs
I. AK (Model) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXVIII. AK (v. Chappuis) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXIX. AK (mot.) (Schmidt) - 2 panzer divisions, 2 motorized divisions
LVII. AK (mot.) (v. Arnim) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized division, 1 motorized brigade

Heeresgruppe Süd (v. Rundstedt)

6. Armee (v. Reichenau) - 250.375 men, 2.711 guns, 0 AFVs
XVII. AK (Kienitz) - 4 infantry divisions
XXIX. AK (v. Obstfelder) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXXIV. AK (v. d. Chevallerie) - 3 infantry divisions
LV. AK (Vierow) - 2 infantry divisions, 1 Slovakian division

11. Armee (v. Schobert) - 263.484 men, 2.617 guns, 21 AFVs
XI. AK (v. Kortzfleisch) - 3 infantry divisions
XXX. AK (v. Salmuth) - 2 infantry divisions, 1 airlanding division
XXXIV. AK (Schaal) - 2 infantry divisions, 1 mountain division
LIV. AK (Hansen) - 3 infantry divisions

17. Armee (v. Stülpnagel) - 226.161 men, 2.546 guns, 67 AFVs
IV. AK (v. Schwedler) - 4 infantry divisions
XXXXIX. GK (Kübler) - 3 infantry divisions, 1 mountain division
LII. AK (v. Briesen) - 4 infantry divisions

Panzergruppe 1 (v. Kleist) - 245.130 men, 2.822 guns, 639 AFVs
III. AK (mot.) (v. Mackensen) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized division
XIV. AK (mot.) (v. Knobelsdorff) - 1 panzer division, 1 SS division, 1 SS motorized brigade, Großdeutschland, 1 Slovakian mobile division
XXXXVI. AK (mot.) (v. Vietinghoff) - 1 panzer division, 2 SS divisions
XXXXVIII. AK (mot). (Kempf) - 2 panzer divisions, 1 motorized division

Armata 3 (Dumitrescu) - 206.397 men, 1.833 guns, 85 AFVs
4 infantry divisions
Corp. 1 (Ionescu) - 2 infantry divisions
Corp. de Munte (Avramescu) - 1 infantry division, 3 mountain brigades
Corp. de Cav. (Racovita) - 1 armoured division, 3 cavalry brigades

Armata 4 (Ciuperca) - 257.769 men, 2.109 guns, 4 AFVs
Corp. 2 (Macici) - 3 infantry divisions
Corp. 3 (Atanasiu) - 3 infantry divisions, 1 cavalry brigade
Corp. 5 (Levanti) - 3 infantry divisions
Corp. 11 (Constantinescu-Claps) - 1 infantry division, 2 infantry brigades

Gyorshadtest (Miklos) - 2 motorized brigades, 1 cavalry brigade

CSIR (Messe) - 2 infantry divisions, 1 cavalry division

On 1st October 1941 the German forces in the East numbered 3.437.356 men with 34.626 guns, 2.710 tanks and 3.101 aircraft. The Red Army on the other hand counted 4.575.254 men, 40.992 guns, 2.497 tanks and 4.962 aircraft.

Industry

At the end of September German manpower pools numbered 52.496 men with armaments at 96.248.

On the other side, the Soviets managed to largely complete their factory evacuations in the threatened areas. All in all 146 armament factories were successfully evacuated with 43 lost to the German advance. Additionally 65 heavy industry factories were destroyed along the way.

[Callistrid]

What's going around Moscow?

[SigUp]

Not much, just grinding one hex forward each turn...

By the way, forgot to include that the last time. Before loki's counterattack near Tula messed it up: The Kursk salient in 1941, a near-perfect replication in shape and size

[gingerbread]

Still interested in a losses screen, scrolled to include Soviet vehicle losses. Realize it's a server game, so next turn if you remember.

Also interested in if you have a gut feel regarding the Soviet attrition losses, this due to the rare 95 morale setting.

[SigUp]

It's a PBEM game, so here you go (situation prior to my turn 16):



EDIT: Can't say much about attrition damage to the Soviet side. Haven't been paying much attention to that. If I manage to remember about that I'll try to make a guess about it.

[gingerbread]

You're doing well, casualty wise.

2.48M, when allowing for recruited Hiwis, by T15 is the T25 average 10 turns early. The weather is worsening, but the ARM situation cannot be good on the Soviet side with these casualty numbers. Forcing surrender of rifle divisions is a double gain since it not only removes the troops, it also strains the replacement situation when the units rebuilds in refit mode.

You should be very pleased with the 1750 Cavalry Squad losses. That's roughly 1/3rd of a theoretical full compliment of Soviet Cavalry at start of the blizzard.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

VI. AK (Laux) - 3 infantry divisions
XXXV. AK (Kämpfe) - 4 infantry divisions
XX. AK (Materna) - 4 infantry divisions
XXXVIII. AK (v. Chappuis) - 3 infantry divisions
XVII. AK (Kienitz) - 4 infantry divisions
XXXXIV. AK (v. d. Chevallerie) - 3 infantry divisions

I have noticed you replaced the comanders of 6th and 44th corps, these are the 6 corps I tend to disband early on when playing with lock HQ suport .

XVII TH corps survives a bit longer until LI corps arives.
for the cost of replacing a poor leader you get better bang for the buck simply building up
suport units in remaining corps.

It costs abouth 3 turns of AP points but it is a good idea to get the contruction batalions doing their job early ,(turn 6-9) to help with rail repairs and partisan threat.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

these are the 6 corps I tend to disband early on

Doesn't that leave you terribly overloaded on Command points? I can easily use every Corps in the game till at least 43 and have them packed full.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

these are the 6 corps I tend to disband early on

Doesn't that leave you terribly overloaded on Command points? I can easily use every Corps in the game till at least 43 and have them packed full.

1941 is not even a problem , in 1942 the 6 alied armies can receive some german divisions (I ussually give the jagger div to hungarians ) also you end up with some divisions so demoralised after the first winter that is not even worth bringing them up to strenght .

[SigUp]

Turn 16: 2nd October 1941 - 8th October 1941

On 4th October 1941 an unfortunate accident threw the highest echelon of the German high command into disarray, in the midst of the critical period in front of Moscow: Franz Halder the chief of the general staff, slipped while walking down the stairs, hit his head and died of his wounds in a German field hospital in Minsk. In a surprising decision Hitler named the former Austrian Lothar Rendulic acting chief of staff, a move that was greeted with great dismay among the German officer corps. [Note 1]

Army Group North

Shortly before his death Halder met with the commander of Army Group North von Leeb and discussed the future operations of his armies. They agreed that the time for substantial offensives in the north was over and on 3rd October von Leeb ordered 16th and 18th Army to go the the defence. 18th Army was to hold the lines between Kalinin and Bologoe while 16th Army was assigned the sector between Bologoe and Podborovye. The area between Podborovye and Lake Onega was to be held by the Finnish forces.

Army Group Centre



In front of Moscow meanwhile 9th Army and 3rd Panzer Group grinded their way forward, advancing only some 10 miles. South of the Oka von Kluge massed his divisions and successfully penetrated the Soviet lines, freeing the two encircled units. In the same time period Guderian, assisted by von Weichs 2nd Army, moved north to encircle the Soviet troops around Orel. Supported by III. AK (mot.) transferred from 1st Panzer Group the Germans penetrated the Soviet lines on 4th October and two days later 14th Panzer Division linked up with 2nd Army's infantry. Immediately the Soviets counterattacked, but unlike the previous weeks the Germans, standing behind the Oka, were able to throw back the attacking Soviet forces.

Army Group South

South of Orel the Germans quickly eliminated the Kursk pocket, netting over 80.000 new prisoners. With the Soviet withdrawal von Rundstedt's divisions mainly focused on pursuing the remnants of Southwestern Front's once proud armies. In the Crimea the German offensive was halted due to heavily fortified Soviet positions in the hills north of Sevastopol. Only the Rumanians were still able to move forward in the light of no Soviet resistance around Feodosiya and Ak-Manay.

[Note 1: Rendulic lost 1 initiative point due to his promotion to Generalleutnant.]

[juret]

nice aar!

Gonna push for moscow during the snow after the mud?

[SigUp]

Turn 17: 9th October 1941 - 15th October 1941

Army Group North

In Army Group North's combat area fighting intensity in the week between 9th and 15th October 1941 was very low. The reorganization of forces was in full swing and by 15th October most divisions of 16th and 18th Army, as well as 4th Panzer Group had reached their designated areas, fixated during Halder and von Leeb's meeting.

Army Group Centre



In the meantime Army Group Centre's units continued their ground assault in the Moscow sector. Heavy infantry assaults moved the Red Army units some 10 miles to the East, while von Bock ordered Hoth and Strauss to mass their divisions for a push towards Kaluga.

Around Orel the pocket formed the previous week was eliminated by 13th October. Guderian's panzers, however, were not content with what they achieved and sought to exploit the weaknesses in the enemy lines, created by ill-fated Soviet counterattacks. The tired Soviet divisions were no match for determined panzer assaults and numerous Soviet divisions were routed as German spearheads stood 20 miles south of Tula.

Army Group South

Similarly to Army Group North, von Rundstedt's divisions also dealt with only minor fightings save for a massive German assault to capture Rostov. Around 5:30 AM on 10th October 1941 over 1.500 guns, supported by 45 He-111 of IV. Fliegerkorps, began launching heavy barrages at the Soviet 230th and 339th Rifle Divisions dug in in the city on the Don. Two hours later the ground assault commenced with 113th and 125th Infantry Division attacking from the East and 198th, 267th Infantry and 22nd Airlanding Divisions attacking from the North and West. Faced with this concentrated assault the Soviets began to buckle by the next day. The staff of 51st Army tried to reverse fortunes on 12th October by sending in 62nd Cavalry Division, but the Germans responded by pushing 11th Panzer and 25th Motorized Division into the fray in addition to the 9th Rumanian Cavalry Brigade. Overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of attackers the Soviet divisions were slowly pushed back to the Don and by 15th October the resistance in the city had ended.

In the meantime fighting on the Crimea has completely ceased as Soviet defenses in the hills near Sevastopol proved to be too formidable for the German-Rumanian forces to attack. Further to the East the Rumanians closed in on Kerch, which was heavily fortified and held by a single Soviet rifle division.

More ominously, beginning in the evening of 15th October the weather began to turn significantly in all parts of the Soviet Union, save for a strip encompassing the Southern Ukraine and Northern Crimea. Over night the roads and fields were turned into a sea of mud, severly hindering mobility. The fearsome raspititsa had arrived - and the summer campaign of 1941 had finally ended.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: juret

nice aar!

Gonna push for moscow during the snow after the mud?

I intend to maintain pressure to about 20th November before pulling out the six most powerful infantry divisions in addition to some panzers. Won't be railed back to Germany, but rather stay in cities near the front.

[jwolf]

Congratulations on a well fought summer campaign, culminating in the capture of Rostov. You just might get a break in the weather during the mud season with snow in the North Soviet zone. If so, would that be enough to tip Moscow your way during November? If nothing else, the mud turns will give you a chance to get rail lines caught up or at least much closer to the front (assuming the partisans don't sabotage your efforts too badly). Good luck.