Change publishers

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Lock in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... [8|]

No objection from me. Nothing of value has, nor do I foresee arising from this thread.

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Lock in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... [8|]

No objection from me. Nothing of value has, nor do I foresee arising from this thread.

I just sometimes wish you were a little more friendly with the natives and direct all that intellect to more positive uses [:)]

Darkspire

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

Some things are considered inappropriate or off-limits for discussion. Just as I don't think it's appropriate to engage in vitriolic political rants here, I also don't think it's appropriate to question Matrix's private business affairs without any documentation to support one's position.

That one really made me laugh Someone should frame it I reckon before this thread gets buried.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

...

You know Kayoz, despite the fact you have once again resorted to insults, and even when it would be easy to tear apart your argument once again, I'm actually starting to feel a little sorry for you.

I call on the Moderators to take Disciplinary action against you. Once again the rest of us start a civil discussion (which is why this thread should not be locked) and here you are being a forum bully.

As a community we have a choice. Do we allow the bully to continue by saying nothing? Or do you join my call for Disciplinary action against Kayoz from the Moderators?

[Cauldyth]

It's beyond me why someone would hang out somewhere they're pretty clearly not wanted by a large portion of the community, just so they can berate strangers over the most mundane and innocent of comments.

[Gregorovitch55]

I'm new here so i don't know who's who or the vibe of this board etc, but I can say this: on each and every other game board I'm a member of (and that's a few) Kayoz'z behavior would not be tolerated for a minute. Normally he or she would be initially PMed by a mod to desist, then publicly warned on the board that x and y posts subsequent to private warning are unacceptable (and why) and that any further transgression will result in action (suspension or banishment). I'm old and ugly enough to either ignore or laugh at this sort of nonsense but considering the imminent release of Universe and the likelihood of potential new players visiting the board this very obvious thread, or more specifically Kayoz's antics in it, will likely make them run a mile, especially as he or she appears to be a senior member.

[DevildogFF]

/wholeheartedly agree with action against Kayoz. He might be intelligent enough, but his insults and condescending attitude are unwelcome and disruptive. Enough so that I sometimes fear posting for drawing his attention.

Frankly, these boards would be a better place without him, but since that's probably not in the cards, some sort of action is well past due.

If he were on the forums I I moderate, he would have been long gone.

[DevildogFF]

Anger got the best of me. Please delete.

[Cauldyth]

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
but considering the imminent release of Universe and the likelihood of potential new players visiting the board

This is a real concern of mine. DW is, as far as I'm concerned, the best 4X game that's ever been made. It blows my mind. And with Universe about to be released, offering all content at a (presumably) reasonable price, we will hopefully see the largest influx of new players here since the original game was released. I'd hate for them to be discouraged and driven away by a single forum member who seems incapable of interacting with other human beings in an even remotely civil manner.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth
It's beyond me why someone would hang out somewhere they're pretty clearly not wanted by a large portion of the community

Aah, so it's a popularity contest now? Dissenting views are not allowed because they're unpopular? Intriguing.

[Icemania]

I've lost count of the number of insults but you will not find any accusations of being a crazy, immoral, amoral sociopath in my responses. Once again I'll refrain from using the sort of inappropriate language you are choosing in your responses. I will continue to call you out accordingly and stand up to the bully. On this occasion I will defend myself from being labelled as coming from "North Korea", "crazy" and a "sociopath".

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Icemania
That's not a completely contradictory untagged speculation is it Kayoz?

I make no assumptions or speculations that are not part of any common law system. What does the court assume when you step before a judge/jury? That you're innocent. What does the law say about acts which it does not cover? Nulla poena sine lege. Nothing.

If my assumptions (that without a complaint from Elliot or Erik or evidence of wrongdoing/unreasonable conduct, there is no basis to question their arrangement) are incorrect, then so is the fundamental basis of civil society. Perhaps it's a fundamental difference in our outlooks of justice. From what I can gather from your statements, Icey, you come from North Korea or some such place. How's your beloved leader these days?

So you now openly admit that in some cases you are speculating (indeed to suggest otherwise would be amusing at this point) and therefore must admit that you have been completely caught out inappropriately insulting others. Indeed, to be consistent, you should insult yourself. Instead, as bullies do, you inappropriately attack the other person by labelling me as coming from "North Korea". The appropriate action would be to apologise.

You are confused about what is and is not appropriate in different circumstances. It is well within the law to consider one's options after the end of a contract. It is also quite within the law to allow freedom of speech ... we have the right to speculate on a forum.

And once again you are fabricating. I have never suggesting unreasonable conduct or wrongdoing, I am questioning marketing performance. What I am suggesting is that options should be considered at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way. If Matrix is the right choice all factors considered then fine they obviously are good with product development.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Icemania
By the way, how can you claim Marketing is "Reasonable" "without clear evidence"? By your own logic, shouldn't you be neutral Kayoz?

The burden of proof that it is not reasonable is on you. Not on me. Don't try to shirk your duties. This is a fundamental concept in western civil society. Perhaps you come from a country where one has to prove one's innocence - but that's not where Matrix is based, nor CodeForce.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Really, it's getting rather tedious to go round and round with a crazy person who is (willfully or otherwise) ignorant of the basic concept of who has to provide the burden of proof.

Your burden, IM. Meet the burden and we can go forwards. Otherwise, conversation with you makes as much progress as a hamster in a wheel.

Incorrect. You seem to think the burden of proof goes in one direction ... to everyone else. Well Kayoz I have already highlighted the fallacy behind your claims of neutrality when you have indeed made statements that are far from neutral. The burden of proof is on both of us (once again noting this is a forum where speculation is commonly acceptable and there are fag packets involved).

For example, you have made a statement that their marketing is reasonable. You have also previously made a statement that their marketing is poor. When I challenged you on your change in position you said that you didn't know why your position has changed. Burden of proof applies and you have failed to meet it. You have made statements and changed your position without evidence. Sadly you do not have the self-awareness to recognise when you have failed to meet your own mantra. Instead, as bullies do, you inappropriately attack the other person by labelling me as "crazy".

In contrast I have a consistent position. But clearly you do not read what others write. The Horizon example in this very thread is evidence of poor marketing from Matrix. To challenge my position, you need evidence as well Kayoz. And again I have asked several times where is that evidence of reasonable marketing ... ? If you provide enough evidence, you never know, I might even change my position and agree with you. If Matrix lifts the bar for Universe (which I really hope they do) I might also change my position. However, my change will not be based on nothing.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Many factors Kayoz. Loyalty and trust are just one of them. Your own failures to listen to what I am repeatedly saying defeats your entire argument.

Failure to listen? As opposed to your repeated ignoring of "none of your business"? Pot kettle black at the very best for you, Snowy.

Oh I've listened. And then rejected it as being completely without basis. As have others. We have freedom of speech and the right to speculate on a forum.

You are confused about what is and is not appropriate in different circumstances.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
As for the sociopathy issue you allude to - it's your words, not mine. You can't understand loyalty or trust outside of a contractual relationship. Your words. Not mine.

You continue to fabricate something I have not said. What does common Business ethics say? That such consideration should include fair dealings. It's something I apply always and indeed have been a whistleblower out here in the real world. A point I keep making in different ways ... but which you do not hear. You even quoted one example of what you failed to hear ... Many factors Kayoz!

Sadly you do not have the self-awareness to recognise your own failings. Instead, as bullies do, you inappropriately attack the other person by once again by labelling me a sociopath.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Aah, so it's a popularity contest now? Dissenting views are not allowed because they're unpopular? Intriguing.

No. The more the merrier with dissenting views. This has nothing to do with who agrees with any of the various views expressed here. It's about the appalling way you go about it Kayoz. Indeed this is the main reason I feel sorry for you Kayoz, you remain completely unaware of your own behaviour. You are a significant barrier to the potential of this forum.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Osito

I know very little about marketing, so I'm fairly neutral about whether or not DW marketing has been reasonable or good. I didn't find out about the game until mid 2012, but I have to say that I wasn't really looking until mid 2012. So I think someone who is interested in this sort of game will most likely find it, because they'll be looking at the kind of sites (in particular Space Sector) which would cover it.

People who are not actively looking for this type of game will probably not find it. Is that a good or a bad thing? I think there's certainly a risk that the more casual kind of player would be put off by DW, and that would be quite damaging to the franchise, as they'd probably be quite vocal about their opinion (particularly on Steam forums, if the game had been released on Steam).

Although I wasn't around for the launch of DW in 2010, I'm pretty sure that if it had received wider exposure at the time it would have received very damaging publicity. Why do I say this? Largely on the basis that in February 2011 Space Sector gave DW a review score of 5.0. If Space Sector could only give 5.0, what would the likes of IGN and Gamespot have said? There would no doubt have been a lot of negative feedback on widely read forums. You might make a quick buck from increased sales at release, but that kind of publicity can kill a franchise, because it can discourage those who would like the game if they tried it.

Obviously, the game is much better now, and maybe it's now got to the point where it can withstand much better exposure. Perhaps, with the release of Universe, it will now get better exposure. We've yet to see how Matrix will handle this release. For all we know, it may even appear on Steam. Then we can have some really good forum arguments: the Steambois will have a field day

Osito

We are somewhat aligned Osito (although I tend to stay out of Steam debates). Marketing the original through broader channels would probably have been a disaster. But I really do think broader exposure is now feasible although it would still need to be carefully selected.

I didn't find Distant Worlds until Legends. There was quite a while where I was trawling the more significant gaming sites looking for new 4X games and never came across Distant Worlds. It was only when I was on annual leave, when I had plenty of idle time, that I found this game by searching.

With respect to Marketing, while this isn't my profession, I did Dux my Marketing MBA unit and have worked with Marketers in various ways since including Performance Management. Creating Awareness is key. You just can't rely on people being desperate enough to do a search and with the time available to get lucky.

Of course, this all based on the premise that the 4X market segment is different to the War Strategy market segment, which I contend is indeed the case, on the back of a fag packet.

Just to add, I give the scores on all these major sites lip service, and would have still had a look at other reviews even if there score was ordinary ... but at least I would have known it existed.

[Tcby]

I agree with Ice. Moderators should be stepping in when Kayoz (/anybody else) brings out the insults. I think that it's important that this tiny community stays civil.

As for burden of proof being on Ice, Spidey, Gregorovitch etc, it strikes me as an unnecessary argument. Ice and others are describing a lack of marketing efforts. If I point to my empty hand and say "I'm not holding an apple", you probably wouldn't bother telling me to prove it. Kayoz is calling for proof (matrix profit/loss data) that doing basically no marketing is negatively impacting sales + consumer awareness. We know that we don't have the raw figures to answer that challenge. So can we just accept that lack of information and let occam's razor guide us? Ie...shall we discuss the reasonableness of our conclusions rather than hiding behind calls for evidence that cannot be provided?

Excuse me while I think out loud for a moment. AFAIK, marketing = what you (the business) do to promote your brand. Publicity = what other people say about your brand. This includes reviews.

The DW marketing I'm aware of:
1)the codeforce website
2)the DW page on the matrix website.

Publicity
1)Space sector
2)Discussions on forums (outside this forum: rare in my experience)
3)Youtube : Das, Larry Monte, Quill18, + others

Assuming the list above represents the entirety of the DW marketing/publicity...
Which statement involves the most assumptions (ie which conclusion fails to apply occam's razor)

a) The above strategies do not negatively impact DW's sales performance. They are adequate, meaning this would be considered somewhat standard in the industry.
b) The above strategies negatively impact DW's sales performance. This is because they are not adequate; they are neither publicized by the myriad popular websites that cater to this genre, nor do they market their game with a frequency or variety that would be deemed 'average'.

For the sake of argument I am saying that adequate marketing = roughly the industry standard.

I think it is more reasonable to call this level of marketing below average / inadequate. Because of this, I think that Kayoz using the burden of proof argument is unnecessary and weak. It isn't exactly vital that we see proof that marketing your game less than your competition will result in fewer sales.

Also, THIS.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
So you now openly admit that in some cases you are speculating

Clearly you don't understand "reasonable", nor "burden of proof". There's little point in debating these points with someone who's willfully ignorant and/or so entrenched in his stance that no debate of logic, reason and evidence will shift him from his position. This is pointless.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
... labelling me as coming from "North Korea".

Where did label you as coming from North Korea? Quote the sentence. If my question hit a sensitive nerve, then that's not my problem. Your lack of understanding of basic justice principles is.

Another lie.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
...we have the right to speculate on a forum.

Within reason. And above all else, show due respect to the owners of the forum - Matrix. This forum is their property. We are guests.

You're being grossly disrespectful to Matrix, CodeForce and their representatives. If you are going to be disrespectful, back up your statements with fact. And in this discussion, facts have been sorely lacking.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
You seem to think the burden of proof goes in one direction ... to everyone else.

You're the one suggesting that Matrix has been incompetent and/or ineffective in marketing DW. The accusation is yours, so then is the burden of proof. But as I stated at the beginning, there's no point in debating "burden of proof" to someone who's willfully ignorant of basic justice.

Your accusation, your burden. Not mine.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
you inappropriately attack the other person by labelling me as "crazy".

Where did I write that you were crazy? Your statements come across as distinctly sociopathic - but crazy? No, I didn't write that of you.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
In contrast I have a consistent position.

Consistently devoid of any substance or proof to support your complaints. No facts to support your stance, nothing but your overrated opinion of your marketing knowledge. Yes indeed, you have been adamantly consistent in that.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
If you provide enough evidence, you never know

Again, we're back to burden of proof. Your claim is that Matrix marketing is being incompetently run. Your burden. I'm under no obligation to prove anything.

Hamster on a wheel.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
We have freedom of speech and the right to speculate on a forum.

Within limits. But that's for the moderator to decide.

Though I might mention that you're in disagreement with Cauldyth, who seems to believe that unpopular stances should be silenced.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Instead, as bullies do, you inappropriately attack the other person by once again by labelling me a sociopath.

Go back and read your original statement. This is getting tiresome. You complain and complain, but fail to read what you wrote.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
This has nothing to do with who agrees with any of the various views expressed here.

Unfortunately, that's the whole basis of Cauldyth's assertion. Unpopular statements should be silenced/censored. That's what he writes.

"It's beyond me why someone would hang out somewhere they're pretty clearly not wanted by a large portion of the community" - unpopular == censored, that's the core of his complaint. Read what he wrote. Not your writing, but it is indeed interesting the allies you attract.

Example of Burden of Proof in games:
If I say "this game sucks, it crashes all the time" - I'd be expected to submit crash logs, steps to reproduce it or a save-game file showing the problem.

If I say, "the game runs fine on my box", I don't foresee anyone expectation that I provide proof of my comment.

The same burden applies. Your complaint about Matrix marketing, your burden.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Where did label you as coming from North Korea? Quote the sentence. If my question hit a sensitive nerve, then that's not my problem. Your lack of understanding of basic justice principles is.

Another lie.

To repeat what I've already quoted:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
If my assumptions (that without a complaint from Elliot or Erik or evidence of wrongdoing/unreasonable conduct, there is no basis to question their arrangement) are incorrect, then so is the fundamental basis of civil society. Perhaps it's a fundamental difference in our outlooks of justice. From what I can gather from your statements, Icey, you come from North Korea or some such place. How's your beloved leader these days?

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Where did I write that you were crazy? Your statements come across as distinctly sociopathic - but crazy? No, I didn't write that of you.

To repeat what I've already quoted:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Really, it's getting rather tedious to go round and round with a crazy person who is (willfully or otherwise) ignorant of the basic concept of who has to provide the burden of proof.

LOL

[Icemania]

Well said Tcby

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Icemania
...we have the right to speculate on a forum.

Within reason. And above all else, show due respect to the owners of the forum - Matrix. This forum is their property. We are guests.

You're being grossly disrespectful to Matrix, CodeForce and their representatives. If you are going to be disrespectful, back up your statements with fact. And in this discussion, facts have been sorely lacking.

You are going to lecture me on respect? Really?

I think they have their strengths and weakness, just like any business.

ORIGINAL: Icemania
If Matrix is the right choice all factors considered then fine they obviously are good with product development.

So what would you suggest in the Bioware Forums?

[Kayoz]

North Korea
Phrased as a question. Given his statements, that was my assumption and he was free to contest it at any time. By applying his interpretation of justice, it's for him to disprove.

Crazy person:
Alas, I didn't remember writing that. It is, however, the only assumption I can reach when dealing with someone who ignores statements in bold print, made repeatedly.

Oh well, I'll stand by that. It is the impression he gives.

Burden of proof:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
LOL

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

[Icemania]

Thanks for your apology Kayoz.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Icemania
If Matrix is the right choice all factors considered then fine they obviously are good with product development.

So what would you suggest in the Bioware Forums?

You're holding a conversation with yourself? If that isn't a clear sign of insanity, I'm not sure what is.