Fischia il Vento - loki100 vs smokindave34 ... German marginal victory T94

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: ElvisDaKing

I am following this AAR with great interest, and trying alos to learn from it

Question : How do you manage to get this interdiction zone ?
- how many squadrons do you commit ?
- do you send large groups to cover large interdiction zone or several mission with groups dispatched to cover some smaller areas ?
- what kind of order/target do you give to your squadrons : Ground Attack/Interdiction or ground Attack:railway which seems to wrok better qs per my own experience
- any other détails will be very helpful..

( a screen shot of mission order will be also great [;)] )

thanks in advance

I'm glad its useful. Unfortunately the way I save the turns means I can't go back to the details (unless someone knows how). All I've got available is the turn end save just before I ran the end of turn routine.

Basically I've split tac air and US 9 air into two groups. One has the FBs and the other LBs.

This image looks rather odd, not sure why it shows up like this, but you can make out the 2 blocks of 2 Tactical Air. One is at the top centred around Lisieux and the other at the bottom around Chartres. The lower one had the LBs. For 9 Air the FBs are centred on Eveux and the LBs are in action behind his lines.

So the very high interdiction between the bulk of Dave's units and the Seine came from an overlapping pattern of FBs from 2 Tac and 9 Air. For this turn, I think I set them all to interdiction as my suspicion was he was going to pull back (no reason why he'd want to defend his current very exposed front line) and I wanted him to pay in terms of disruption etc for those moves.

My basic logic is to get as much airpower into the skies as I can over these turns. I can rest stuff in the autumn or when the front is static, but this particular turn offered the potential to really make him pay for moving where I had laid down massive interdiction.

But I vary patterns and targets a lot. I generally prefer small clusters of high interdiction to wide clusters of #1-3. We are now fighting it out south of Paris and where I think his mobile reserve is I set a very small pattern so that they are forced to sit tight (if they react into combat they suffer high attrition).

[loki100]

Turn 56: 29 July – 4 August 1944

Not that much happened this turn as the Germans pulled back to the Seine and I was following up.

St Malo fell to the death star (so that is three working ports I now have). I'll carry on clearing out the Atlantic ports in Brittany but probably won't bother with Bordeaux etc.



I managed to trap and rout a slow Pzr division. Opted to rout it as I wasn't sure I could build a pocket that would hold.



Turn ended with me re-organising. Basically 2 British Army will try to hold the line of the Seine north of Paris while I allocate the bulk of the armour to 1 US Army and try and smash my way around Paris to the south (where the rivers are less of a barrier). I strongly suspect the next period is not going to be very elegant.



the map shows my completely fictional plan for a grand encirclement of the entire German army at Paris.

[loki100]

Turn 57: 5 – 11 August 1944

When I got the turn back I found that Dave had been attacking ... I mean ... this is really not meant to happen, especially when all my poor French units wanted to do was to go home.



I took my revenge by sending the Halifax Bombers from Bomber Command to hit his airbases around Paris.



As to the rest, mostly a bit of a lull. I'm slowly re-organising to send most of the armour to US 1 Army while 2 British moves up to the Seine. My goal is to use the large river against the Germans, if I can dig in to levels #2-#3, I can defend in regimental strength and then concentrate for an offensive to the south of the Seine. For the moment, US 1 Army is my main offensive tool.



Manpower pools etc remain fairly robust.



In Italy I am re-organising for an offensive aimed at Naples. This may well be the last major action on that sector.

[loki100]

Turn 58: 12-18 August 1944

VP situation is predictably poor. Last turn was not too bad (limited fighting) but overall I have no choice but to trade off losses (=vp loss) to try and dent the German defences. Any reward is longer term, if I can reach Germany and start to capture some major cities.



With this in mind, reworked my air directives a bit. Again went to hit the German air bases around Paris. The bulk of my tactical air hit their lines to the south of Paris, to support my vague plan of sweeping around the city and encircling the entire German army.



In addition, strategic bombers hit the Ruhr and the industry around Magdeburg.

Luftwaffe took heavy losses as a result of my attacks.



One reason I think the Luftwaffe is in trouble is the high number of operational losses. This tends to follow from using low morale/low experience pilots.

On the ground, the death star arrives at Lorient. Brest is next.



On the main front, lost almost all my attacks as the German lines were too strong. Only gains were to the south around Auxerre. Decided to try and exploit these small gains by a risky paratroop operation. Suspect that unit is off to Armagh soon but the extra interdiction may force the Germans to fall back.

[jwolf]

My casual strategic guess is that you need that 2nd invasion to shake up his line. Those poor paras are toast. [:(]

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

My casual strategic guess is that you need that 2nd invasion to shake up his line. Those poor paras are toast. [:(]

Still holding back for a few reasons. First I have a landing planned for the Med region - to grab more VP cities - as well. Every invasion, especially till it captures and repairs its own port, ties up a % of your shipping. That in turn makes it harder to ship supply and reinforcements to your primary campaign.

Second, both the likely N Europe options - immediately behind the front or in Belgium/Netherlands - will be 2 hex affairs, so will struggle to break out and can probably be contained by the forces he has in that area. But at the moment, from recon, Dave has twice as much as he will need after I am ashore as he is covering two potential sites.

Final bit, and this becomes obvious in a few posts. Is that I can strip the main Italian front after I take Naples. That plus freed up TFs makes another invasion in N Europe/N Italy more feasible (even late in the year). My hope by then is he will be stretched to the limits and I may finally force him to fall back dramatically.

[loki100]

Turn 59: 19-25 August 1944

Perhaps not surprising, my Paratroops are off to enjoy the hospitality of South Armagh



Now this did actually work in my favour in that the extra interdiction generated, plus the advance of my brave Canadians, forced a substantial retreat by the Germans.

Tactical Air hit two blocks. The Germans immediately around Auxerre and then to the south of Paris. I'm hitting this sector as I think that is where their mobile reserve is and want to minimise reserve reactions (or make them pay with attrition if they do respond).



Strategically, Bomber Command worked over the Hannover region and 8 Air hit the Berlin region in a series of major raids.



8 Air is now so well escorted that the German interceptors are suffering heavy losses.

On the ground, despite my interdiction, my opening attack was stopped by the intervention of the German reserves.



The reason I attacked twice was to make the Germans react. Movement under interdiction creates attrition and slowly weakens them too.

The next total failure was not quite so planned.



But then my Canadians got to work unhindered, wrecking the German lines at Auxerre.



VP situation is slipping out of control. Some of my losses are probably avoidable, but I have little choice but to trade off losses for small gains and hope that the Germans hit a critical point. At the least, I think if I can win the battles around Paris they have no prepared defence line till the German border.



Final position around Auxerre. At least I am managing to keep my armour heavily concentrated rather than risking it become dispersed.



Supply will improve as I now have a decent rail net. Etampes and Gien will be set up as depots next turn.



One thing to bear in mind is that the capacity of a depot is different to its priority. So a small depot (the black bar) might attract all the supply it can handle if it is level #3 or #4 but it still can't supply many formations.

That has two consequences. One is that you use up more trucks as units try to draw supply from further back in the chain. The other, more important, is your cv drops.

The implication of rule 15.6.2.5 is profound, especially compared to WiTE. In WiTE, as such, shortage of supply has no combat effect (it has others in terms of fatigue and morale) until you actually run out of supply. Shortages of ammunition follows a relative simple rule of between 51-100% units fight as normal, if under 50% they fire less often, if over 100% they may fire more often (so there is a less direct relationship between ammunition and CV).

In WiTW, every missing 1% of ammunition costs 1% off your cv (up to 50%) and for motorised units missing fuel costs 2% off cv for every missing 1%. You cannot lose more than 50% due to these in combination but it makes operating at the limits of your supply line a major problem.

In turn that is why letting stocks build up for an offensive is so important. In WiTE, once you have 50% ammunition, for all practical purposes you have enough. But in turn, its why you need depots with enough capacity, so to supply an offensive you either need one huge depot (unlikely) or a lot of smaller ones. So in my case Orleans and Chartres will help but neither are going to be sufficient in their own right.

Reason for this long comment is it has taken me some time to really understand the implications of the supply model in WiTW. But all of this is why supply delivery, build up and interdicion is so much more important than it is in WiTE.

[loki100]

Turn 60: 26 August – 1 September 1944

One thing that has been very much in my favour all summer is the weather. Worst has been isolated weeks of rain and this week it is back to clear skies and solid ground.

The result is I am really pushing my tactical air to take advantage. By default I rest units with morale <70, the tactical air groups are now flying if they are 55+. Bombing patterns are much as usual, most of the tactical air is hitting the Germans south of Paris (since I had few attacks planned this turn they mostly went for the supply lines), 8 US Air goes for the Ruhr (it is now so well escorted I actually want to fight the Luftwaffe) and Bomber Command hits Braunschweig.



On the ground (and, of course, at sea), Brest is added to the battle honours of the death star.



In Italy I've been planning an offensive for a few turns by concentrating all my best units in the west to try and take Naples. To assist I've been swapping around support units to ensure as many mountain units are in action. The Germans have no recon assets so this is relatively easy to set up and gain surprise. The result was a clean breakthrough of a well defended line.



That also, I think shows the advantage of letting supply and ammunition stocks build up before you attack. My combat values remained fairly high as a result while the Germans suffered for several turns of supply interdiction.

France was a lot quieter, juggling forces for a renewed attack and making some minor gains around Paris. In a way the most useful gain was that French motorised division reaching the Swiss border. This cuts out off any German units in the south and sets the scene for my next set of landings.



Gradually building up the depots supporting my offensive but as you can see my rail net is heavily used (all those yellow lines).

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: loki100

Turn 60: 26 August – 1 September 1944

8 US Air goes for the Ruhr (it is now so well escorted I actually want to fight the Luftwaffe) and Bomber Command hits Braunschweig.

Is Bomber Command bombing at night or during the day?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: loki100

Turn 60: 26 August – 1 September 1944

8 US Air goes for the Ruhr (it is now so well escorted I actually want to fight the Luftwaffe) and Bomber Command hits Braunschweig.

Is Bomber Command bombing at night or during the day?

they are on night bombing. Even in the very early patches I stuck to this as I think day strategic bombing with BC is unrealistic, but I've found since the last couple of patches that they work well at night as long as you give them sensible targets and payloads. Every now and then on a manpower raid you have a *lucky* attack where you inflict substantial losses.

[loki100]

Turn 61: 2-8 September 1944

I remain lucky with the weather, back to clear skies and firm ground. Manpower and other pools remain ok (I've disbanded the two UK Army Groups as the US ones are plenty to manage my army).



VP situation remains mheh, doubt this will ever really improve now.



Air war follows the usual pattern. 3 sets of strategic raids on Germany (8 and 15 US Air, Bomber Command), usual pounding of the German positions south of Paris and all the remaining Med aircraft hitting southern France to support my invasion.

Which looks like this:



Seems the Germans have already run away ...

While in the Med, Naples is mine as the Germans pull back to the Volturno



In France, another airborne drop to see if I can make progress around Troyes. Also shows the interdiction levels.



After a few battles, Gds Armoured reaches the Paratroops. Don't actually expect them to hold onto the bridgehead but it will force the Germans to attack where there is high interdiction.

[jwolf]

I've disbanded the two UK Army Groups as the US ones are plenty to manage my army.

So Patton wins his feud against Monty? [;)]

Don't actually expect them to hold onto the bridgehead but it will force the Germans to attack where there is high interdiction.

Seems like a good idea for forcing them to attack into "prepared positions" as it were.

Overall, I would be inclined to more or less ignore the VP count and make your own objectives. I am guessing your invasion of the Riviera will open up France completely, as long as the weather holds. Good luck!

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

I've disbanded the two UK Army Groups as the US ones are plenty to manage my army.

So Patton wins his feud against Monty? [;)]

Don't actually expect them to hold onto the bridgehead but it will force the Germans to attack where there is high interdiction.

Seems like a good idea for forcing them to attack into "prepared positions" as it were.

Overall, I would be inclined to more or less ignore the VP count and make your own objectives. I am guessing your invasion of the Riviera will open up France completely, as long as the weather holds. Good luck!

Since I have no time for feuding subordinates they are both left as army commanders ... actually I find with the allies in WiTW that the command chain above the army level is not that important, you have good enough commanders at the corps/army level and SHAEF is a good back stop. Its not like in WiTE where the Germans can populate an entire command chain with good generals or the Soviets are stuck with numpties at the army level and you need good commanders at Front/Stavka to compensate.

We are a few turns ahead but I've just flipped all of S France apart from a few isolated garrisons, so the winter battles should feature quite a lot more pressure on the flanks of Dave's defensive line as a result.

but generally a lot of my tactical air strategy is either to isolate the battlefield (mostly going for rail lines) or to force him to move under air interdiction (as if he sits still this is no real impact but if he moves he builds up losses quickly)

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: loki100

Turn 60: 26 August – 1 September 1944

8 US Air goes for the Ruhr (it is now so well escorted I actually want to fight the Luftwaffe) and Bomber Command hits Braunschweig.

Is Bomber Command bombing at night or during the day?

they are on night bombing. Even in the very early patches I stuck to this as I think day strategic bombing with BC is unrealistic, but I've found since the last couple of patches that they work well at night as long as you give them sensible targets and payloads. Every now and then on a manpower raid you have a *lucky* attack where you inflict substantial losses.

I asked because you reported that 8th AF was bombing the Ruhr and Bomber Command was bombing Braunschweig. I believe it would make more sense to do this the other way around. The reason being that Braunschweig is (I think) outside the "night radar zone" (or whatever it is called) so night bombing is less effective; but since 8th AF bombs during the day it would not be affected.

Also how do you know that you have had a "lucky" attack? If you are relying on the Reports you receive at the conclusion of your Air Execution Phase (I forget what it is called) please be aware that those Reports are Lies, Lies and more Lies. The actual bombing damage is often no where near as severe as this report indicates. The only way to tell the amount of factory damage you have inflicted (or at least to get a more accurate report) is to conduct Strategic Recon. Of course if you based your statement on the results you saw on the map after Strategic recon, well then never mind.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana




Is Bomber Command bombing at night or during the day?

they are on night bombing. Even in the very early patches I stuck to this as I think day strategic bombing with BC is unrealistic, but I've found since the last couple of patches that they work well at night as long as you give them sensible targets and payloads. Every now and then on a manpower raid you have a *lucky* attack where you inflict substantial losses.

I asked because you reported that 8th AF was bombing the Ruhr and Bomber Command was bombing Braunschweig. I believe it would make more sense to do this the other way around. The reason being that Braunschweig is (I think) outside the "night radar zone" (or whatever it is called) so night bombing is less effective; but since 8th AF bombs during the day it would not be affected.

Also how do you know that you have had a "lucky" attack? If you are relying on the Reports you receive at the conclusion of your Air Execution Phase (I forget what it is called) please be aware that those Reports are Lies, Lies and more Lies. The actual bombing damage is often no where near as severe as this report indicates. The only way to tell the amount of factory damage you have inflicted (or at least to get a more accurate report) is to conduct Strategic Recon. Of course if you based your statement on the results you saw on the map after Strategic recon, well then never mind.

I tend to swap around BC and 8 Air to keep Dave honest and force him to spread out both night and day interceptors. Agree that BC is more effective along the Rhine targets but its also fun to make him set up two (at least) blocks of night fighters rather than concentrate them).

Equally sending 8 Air into the Ruhr now is deadly for the Luftwaffe, the P47s can take on their interceptors and inflict heavy losses, but he can't let me have a free attack. Its why I now think that from about may -44 the balance of the airwar tilts radically ... all of sudden you are hunting the Luftwaffe rather than the early game where you are trying to dodge around.

For the evaluations, use a mix of the outcome reports (which I agree can be too good to be true) and some scanning of the map, in this case my evaluation of lucky was to see the manpower in that city (I tend to keep the Lancasters on incendiaries unless I really am trying something different) was over 50% damaged after the raid.

[Harrybanana]

Yes, my bad. Had I looked more carefully I would have seen that you had Recon ADs plotted as well. I am used to playing the AI, so don't have to worry over much about subterfuge. I just have Bomber Command bomb the Ruhr throughout the War. If the AI has caught on to this I haven't noticed.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Yes, my bad. Had I looked more carefully I would have seen that you had Recon ADs plotted as well. I am used to playing the AI, so don't have to worry over much about subterfuge. I just have Bomber Command bomb the Ruhr throughout the War. If the AI has caught on to this I haven't noticed.

I found the same, against the AI I was more or less running the same set of directives each turn, but against an opponent I think it pays to try and catch them off balance ... of course they are trying to do the same and it results in some spectacular results in some turns.

I like the air resolution model of setting orders and then watching (with horror or glee) as it unfolds, its akin to AGEOD's turn resolution approach which has a similar sense of not being able to stop something happening

[loki100]

Turn 62: 9-15 September 1944

My luck with the weather continues as it remains clear.



The landings go ashore around Cannes, first challenge is to play 'find the German'



After last turn's massive bomber raids I have to rest most of Bomber Command, so the only strategic attacks are by US 8 Air on the Ruhr. The other attacks are as usual, combination of front line attacks, interdiction where I think the reserves are and hitting supply lines [1].

The death star re-appears, St Nazaire is the next stop



That gives me all the Atlantic ports I really need. Any German garrisons to the south can be screened and ignored.

In Italy I follow up my recent victories by clearing the south bank of the Volturno. In turn this will strengthen my defensive set up.



In France, the effective stalemate carries on. All I can do is launch a few massive attacks and take a couple of hexes. I have little hope that anything dramatic will happen … in truth I don't even expect to reach Germany by the end of the game … but its possible that by slowly digging into their position south of Paris I might force them to fall back into Eastern France.





[1] One trick I've worked out is to mouse over the enemy rail net looking for choke points in terms of rail usage. If I've read 14.2.4 correctly, then if the usage for a hex is 5000 tons (before interdiction) then that is already operating at full rail capacity. I'm effectively working back from the front till I find this level of usage and then setting up a rail interdiction mission over those hexes. If I'm right, then a section that was already working at full capacity now has less capacity.

[loki100]

Turn 63: 16-22 September 1944

Weather remains favourable, back to clear skies and firm ground.

Here's the VP situation. The only real bright spot is the relative low rate of loss for V Weapons. In combat terms I'm trying to use my airforce to weaken the Germans to the point where I can deliver powerful attacks ... but unlike the Soviets the Western Allies are not really structured for that type of hammer blows.

Having had that grumble, my last set of gains have dislodged Dave and he's now pulled back the upper Seine around Troyes.



In France, the campaign continues to be focussed on the south of Paris. I'm doing a mix of interdiction to harm the movement of units and reserve re-actions, targetting spotted reserve units (or those where I want to focus my offensive) and trying to damage the capacity of rails to deliver supply.

This shows the interdiction levels for the attacks around the front line.



The strategic airwar consists of raids around Hamburg (BC) and between Leipzig and Hannover (8 Air).

In Italy, I carry on securing my current front line. After this I need to think about a naval invasion around Rome or a more radical redeployment of my better combat units.



The invasion of Southern France carries on gaining ground. I'm going to screen the Franco-Italian border with regimental deployments (I'll use units such as the Brazilian division) and push the bulk up the Rhone to add pressure to the southern sector of the main front. As you can see it looks like the local opposition is only garrisons and a few security regiments.



Main front after moves. The gains around Sens are where the Germans fell back.



Two things to note, I've shifted the focus of 2 British Army to just south of Paris. Its now a largely infantry only formation which is better for breaching a defended river line. North of this concentration the wider Seine is protecting me and I'm gambling on a regimental level defensive line. I'll fill this out with the units that have been clearing out the Atlantic ports over the next turn or so.

The other is that the gains of the British armoured units allowed me to do another para drop. I'm now using these purely in a tactical role and where they can retreat onto ground units, but the extra interdiction all helps weaken the German response.

[jwolf]

In an ironic way the map around Paris reminds me of WITE with a German push toward Moscow. In both cases the defenders have a seemingly unending series of really good positions behind rivers that are very difficult to cross. The drive from South France may open things up, but it will take time and the weather is likely to turn bad by then. Here's to hoping the 2nd British can get the breakthrough you need.