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Harrybanana
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RE: Bloody Thursday

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Gary was able to confirm that the manual is wrong in this case, but not due to any changes made since release as there have been none that we know of. Basically there are two ways engineers can reduce forts. As the battle is underway but before the final odds are calculated, the engineer squads are totaled up (engineer tanks and minesweeper tanks count as two), and they have a chance of reducing the fort level. From the basic formula Gary related to me, it sounds like it would take on average around 250 engineer squads on their own to reduce a fort by 1 full fortification level (50 fort points). Artillery can also reduce the fort level, but it’s hard to say exactly how much they are likely to reduce forts other than to say that heavy artillery/heavy mortars will do better at it. Once the combat odds are calculated, if the odds are between 1.5 to 1 and 1.99 to 1, then the fort level is reduced by 1 full level (50 fort points) and can be reduced further by the engineer squads (but only ½ as much as they do during the combat). If the odds are between 1 to 1 and 1.5 to 1 then the engineers get another chance (but only ¼ as much as during the combat). There is some randomness in the engineer values thrown in to avoid truncations, and it looks like they reduce forts in 10 fort point increments (that is they reduce fort levels by 20% increments, so from 3/10% to 2/90% or 2/70%, etc.). This 10 fort point increments is not true for artillery.

That’s how Gary understands the code to work. So it takes 1-2 battalions of engineers to reduce a fort by about 20% of a fort level. Most divisions have an intrinsic battalion of engineers.

In my tests (and some of the Combat Reports shown on the previous page) it has taken a lot less than 250 engineer squads to reduce a fort level. For example, in the Test combat below 2 American divisions supported by 2 engineer battalions, 3 105mm, 2 155mm, and 2 240mm reduced the fort level. Each American Division has 25 intrinsic engineer squads and each engineer battalion has 25 squads. So that is a total of only 100 squads. I was able to repeat this same attack over and over, so it is not just luck. Again, I am not sure if anything is wrong; but it does seem a lot easier to reduce forts than it used to be. I can send you a test save so you can see for yourself if you want.


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Robert Harris
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Joel Billings
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RE: Bloody Thursday

Post by Joel Billings »

It takes very little to reduce a 2 (10%) to a 1 (90%), which is what your screenshot could be showing. You need to look at the before and after values of the entire fort level, not just the truncated fort value that is being displayed and that counts in combat. Reducing a 2 (10%) to a 1 (90%) can sometimes be done with just one battalion of engineers (which is in most divisions).

Thanks for posting the symbol with the engineer. I'll put that on the list to look at and see if it was removed intentionally or if something broke it.
All understanding comes after the fact.
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LiquidSky
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RE: Bloody Thursday

Post by LiquidSky »



After a lengthy absence initially caused by a nasty flu caused no doubt by allied biological warfare, the germans are back baby!

The date is Aug 19, 1944...and after a prolonged bombing attack costing about 1/3rd of my bombers, Herman Balck launches his attack with 5 SS panzer divisions, and 5 panzer divisions backed by 3 artillery brigades....against 2 british infantry divisions and a FF infantry division (and the 4th CA armoured division in reserve)

SUCCESS! Despite starting at a disadvantage (1633CV to 1837CV) the final odds ended up 2.3-1 as the desperate allies retreat back towards Rome.

One more hex closer to Rome...now only 9 hexes away!



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“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
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comte
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RE: Bloody Thursday

Post by comte »

Did you move every tank in the Western theatre to the Italian front?
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LiquidSky
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RE: Bloody Thursday

Post by LiquidSky »


I moved all the panzer divisions to Italy. I left all the PanzerGrenadier divisions in France.

This game is a bit unique though. The allies have committed themselves to turtling. He is going to win by bombing points. The only way I can stop that is to cause him to lose casualty points. Attacking the allies near his major airbases in Britain is pretty much a no-go, so I moved the panzers to Italy to hit him there.

He cant afford to back off/out of Italy as there are too many city points wrapped up in Rome...so it forces him to try and stand and fight. And his large air superiority is mostly cancelled out by the lack of airbases for him to put them in.

But to bring the score down to a draw is probably impossible. For one thing, I am bleeding tanks at an alarming rate. I can only really sustain this for a few more turns. Of course, if I manage to break through his line, I can do some real damage. Attrition may actually favour me as I can disband a lot of the VG divisions and weak infantry divisions that show up as reinforcements.

But I need tanks. Lots and lots of tanks.
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
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comte
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RE: Bloody Thursday

Post by comte »

Did he interdict any of your panzer units as they were moving south?

Are you finding the Italian terrain to also be slowing down your Panzer operations?
Harrybanana
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RE: Bloody Thursday

Post by Harrybanana »

At one point I saw some of his panzer units leaving the Normandy area so I performed some interdiction on and around them. But all of LS's panzer units have 3 battalions of AA as support units (actually some now have AA regiments as support units), and tend to stack 3 per hex. So 9 battalions of AA make heavy interdiction impossible. I doubt he suffered any significant damage from this interdiction.

The Terrain on the West coast of Italy between Florence and Rome is actually pretty open, so the Italian Terrain isn't slowing him down too much. But I am fortified to level 3 and have 3 divisions defending most hexes with armour in reserve.

At this stage I am not sure if the impending bad weather will help him or me. It will be tougher for him to slog through light mud and mud, but it will also effect my air support. Commencing in January I will score fewer VPs per turn for Cities and Strategic Bombing, so that will help him. But will he be able to continue to successfully attack me as his morale and tank #s worsen?
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LiquidSky
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RE: Bloody Thursday

Post by LiquidSky »



There is terrain though. Lake Bolsena will be difficult to get past. Terrain is a two edged sword though..It helps me on my flanks and protects me when I take the hex.

Also by now I am sure that most of the allied army is now either on route to or in Italy..meaning I am probably out numbered.

Interdiction can be managed. When you enter the first big hex of interdiction (say a 9) you will suffer a lot of disruption and some damage...but not a lot of loss. It is only if you move through a lot of them that you will suffer loss. Interdiction wont stop the Germans, but it will slow them down.

As for actually bombing my panzer divisions...the flak concentrations make it hard..but not impossible.

What I am finding now is I am running out of freight. Italy was a dead theatre for a long time, so all the depots where full when I started...now they are starting to empty. About a quarter of my tanks are damaged. Soon my TOE's are going to change and not for the better.

And to top it off, my SS are going to move off to Hungary for Operation Konrad by the end of the year.

On the plus side, I have a large number of reinforcements showing up for 'Bulge'. The panzer brigades I will disband for the tanks, and maybe the VG divisions for the manpower.
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
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