The early air war

[Dreamslayer]

Can someone provide statistics of losses of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front during June-July 1941? And we can compare it with losses in the game.

[morvael]

Problem is players will do ahistorical things from turn 1 and then will expect historical losses will occur [:)]

I once wrote that it would be great to have the full conflict scripted from turn to turn with historical moves and battle results to have a tool to adjust attrition, combat losses, repair rates to history. But we don't have such resource [:(]

[Dreamslayer]

Ok, but it is possible to compare rates of losses then.
It is nonsense when one side bombing AFs during 1st turn(22-25 June)and got around 6k kills with 17 own losses while other side just looking at this.
I've links for some statistical tables but they are on Russain. So would be interesting to see something similar on English or even German.

[Twigster]

Aircraft Losses during Operation Barbarossa

The reported losses on these initial attacks vary, but the 1970s Soviet official history states the loss of 800 aircraft destroyed on the ground and a total loss of 1200 aircraft. This basically crippled the Soviet air force stationed near the front lines. These attacks also inflicted significant damage and chaos on the logistical side. Thus, by day three of operation Barbarossa the Luftwaffe was free to focus mainly on supporting the ground troops, who captured the Russian airfields.(p. 273)

In Mid July 1941 the Soviets admitted to the destruction of almost 4000 (3985) aircraft, whereas the German air force claimed around 6900 (6857) planes destroyed. The kill claims were probably a bit higher than the real ones, but the official war time number probably lower. Yet, most importantly both numbers are substantial.

- Soviet Airforce WW2 Defeat and Recovery

[morvael]

Somewhere in the forums a long time ago I read that early high losses from airfield bombing are WAD because later on Axis airforce can't replicate historical results, so this initial bonus is there to compensate.

[chaos45]

I think players are concentrating to much on 41/42 air war at current, as the last patch saw soviets getting beaten badly before the game got further.

The game has always had super heavy soviet air losses and the red airforce does begin to recover in 1943 or at least it did in previous patch iterations. Realistically the Soviet airforce was not that effect until 1943. So if we see games making it to 1943 and the soviet airforce still being powerless then there is a game design issue.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

I think players are concentrating to much on 41/42 air war at current, as the last patch saw soviets getting beaten badly before the game got further.

The game has always had super heavy soviet air losses and the red airforce does begin to recover in 1943 or at least it did in previous patch iterations. Realistically the Soviet airforce was not that effect until 1943. So if we see games making it to 1943 and the soviet airforce still being powerless then there is a game design issue.

I think they are saying it (Soviet Airforce) is too effective at the moment from this long forum post

[Dreamslayer]

Twigster, thanks for answer and this link.
But I'm looking for statistics of losses of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front during June-July 1941.
Detailed like these tables if possible.
Examples from articles:
Losses of the Bf-110 on the Eastern Front in 1941 -
http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis ... 0loss.html
Losses of Ju.87 on the Eastern Front in 1941 - http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis ... loss1.html

others articles there about Axis airforce - http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/axis.html

[chaos45]

Ehh IDK I so far havent seen any games in the early phase 41-42 where the Soviet airforce is overpowered. If we see games where in summer 1942 the soviets have air superiority then I would say we have an issue but I havent seen a single game yet where this has happend.

Historically by mid 1943 the air war was in the Soviets favor. They actually tactically and operationally defeated the Luftwaffe in 1943, and could have had a better impact on Kursk if they hadnt fumbled the initial air operations. Even with the initial fumble the red force still cause the luftwaffe issues and contributed to the battle, at a location the Luftwaffe was focusing maximum effort....pretty well represented in the game from what I have seen....by 43 the Germans can fight with air parity in one location but the soviets pretty much have free reign elsewhere.

The German player really has to keep their defense from getting compromised in 43/44 is the issue because once the Germans are pushed out of the forts thats when soviet air powers starts becoming extremely effective in 43/44.

[morvael]

Askey IIB p.283, total loss (60%+ damage) on all fronts:
June 542
July 640

p.284, aircraft classified as written off, East Front, June 22nd - December 31st
3767

[tyronec]

Ehh IDK I so far havent seen any games in the early phase 41-42 where the Soviet airforce is overpowered. If we see games where in summer 1942 the soviets have air superiority then I would say we have an issue but I havent seen a single game yet where this has happend.

I have played 3 games as Soviet into '41, in each of them the Luftwaffe was playing little part in the game by early '42 and I was free to ground bomb and ground support for most ground combats. Typically by T52 I had around 10k planes, Luftwaffe 2k and minor allies largely wiped out.

Tactics were to conduct lots of ground bombing with fighter support to wear out the Luftwaffe fighters and then bomb the airbases. In retrospect I didn't understand why it was working and could probably do a better job now.

I think the issues are:
Too much experience for for air combat when losses are high.
Too much fatigue in some cases (perhaps defensive sorties ?).
Too much gain in morale for being sent to the pool (which is also a bore for the Soviet player).

Would agree that the air war is not that important compared with ground combat, particularly in '41, however a good objective would be to have the ground war and air war working as well as possible.

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Too much gain in morale for being sent to the pool (which is also a bore for the Soviet player).

HO YES we absolutely need an option to send to reserve all air squadron under a specific morale.
When you are playing the soviet and have 30 air squadron with 19/20 morale, it is so boring to have to click 2/3 for EACH ONE to send them to reserve then return to the air group screen and go on and go on.
Really something have to be done about it.

[Twigster]

No problem, Dreamslayer.

Speaking for myself, I am getting into the air war aspect of the game as it is something I have relatively little experience in dealing with. I gather this is a pretty long-running debate though. A question: how is the air war question in all of it's aspects (historical, game mechanics, etc.) handled satisfactorily in WitW?

[morvael]

For a long time I have been thinking about reducing this bonus from +5 to +1.

[tyronec]

If there is a decision that experience/fatigue/morale should be rebalanced then could it be done in a moderate way, better IMO to move in the right direction than do an overkill.

[Dreamslayer]

I guess there is need some(significant) reduction of the exp for airgroups who changed his planes for new types (especially for new generation types). E.g. when group changed their I-153 "tactical bombers" to modern IL-2. It is impossible to learn this for 1 or 2 turn.

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
I guess there is need some(significant) reduction of the exp for airgroups who changed his planes for new types (especially for new generation types). E.g. when group changed their I-153 "tactical bombers" to modern IL-2. It is impossible to learn this for 1 or 2 turn.

It is not possible to do that it would completely trash the automatic management feature of air groups.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: morvael

For a long time I have been thinking about reducing this bonus from +5 to +1.

First and foremost a players Air Strategy is dictating what is happening in the Air. If you fly the German Air Force into the ground you are going to get punished and punished hard. Not to mention the Germans are juggling their Air Force around because of supply which is further impacting the 1941 air results. Imo stop building Rome in one day syndrome with the German Air Force and you will do better.

The National Morale Morvael isn't where the problem began to be honest. Although I think a morale bonus recovery should be based on "experience" and not a generic number. To be honest the problem began when every plane could start flying "NIGHT" missions. By initiating "NIGHT" missions for every plane the Germans "further" fatigue their fighters out by setting every plane to both night and day missions. When NIGHT missions are coupled with an aggressive German air strategy it is a recipe for disaster if the Germans don't control the Air War with Finesse. Again I'm not knocking on anyone's play style, I'm just saying that the Soviet can take advantage of this. (On top of this I believe that night missions should cause double to triple the fatigue at a minimum)

On top of every single aircraft being able to fly night missions, which imho should NOT be allowed unless NB's & minimal bombers and then in "VERY" limited numbers with "VERY" minimal damage. To be honest some of the damage I have seen in games makes baby Jesus cry on the damage results.

Before "experimenting" with the morale/experience/fatigue changes I implore you to look at the players air strategy. Since certain Air strategies are not as conducive as other air strategies. Look at the night rules since to me these numbers are out of whack with reality.

[chaos45]

you could honestly probably just remove night air operations from the game aside from supply/fuel/troop transport missions.

As basically for both sides on the eastern front they were just nuisance missions in all reality. I cant think of any major air operations at night on the eastern front that provided a massive success or edge.

Also I completely agree alot is the German players air strategy. If you fly the luftwaffe all the time you will wear it down....also air base placement is huge in the air war.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: chaos45
air base placement is huge in the air war.

+1 many times over

On night bombing missions, they can rarely get anything more than 1% damage. But there are certain factories where 1% damage stops expansion which leads to huge losses in output. So for them night bombing to just get that 1% can have a huge impact and be worth it.