War in the Pacific Release thread

[Jazon]

Hi,
If you need any help with eastern Europe and Russia in mapping I got some plenty resources.
Cheers
Jazon

PS I got German maps for terrain and woods and roads; 1942; nice scans in 1:1500000 scale

[Elessar2]

Appreciate it. The main issues right now are trying to get the cities in reasonable spots in relation to each other and the existing map (which still has some distortions despite my best efforts, mainly N-S in Russia). But when I start working on the terrain I'll be in definite need of resources like that (for the moment I plan to use the WitE I map).

[roy64]

I'm loving your mod & currently playing against Jazon as Japan version.814.[:)]

We're on turn 40 (I think) & it has become obvious Japan hasn't got a chance to win considering Japans income is so small at just over 200 a turn compared with the Allies combined income of over a 1,000 per turn.[&:]

Currently I'm getting hammered by Jazon[&:] on all fronts using all my income just to keep up with huge losses.
Japan can not reinforce anything apart from infantry.

Another thing that seems strange is every attack Japan makes they lose 70-80% of the time with heavy loses of between 2-3 casualty's an attack.

Now my spies tell me something about a super weapon that is being built giving the Allies even more of an advantage.[X(]

[roy64]

Another thing I noticed is on the map. North of the town Victoria South of Bangkok there's a dead zone with no supply.

[Elessar2]

I appreciate the report, roy64 (here I thought OCB & I were doing well to be on turn 16). 40 turns would put you into mid '43 I believe?

Note I had already agreed with him to increase the DEI income (3 more oil wells), with likely decreases in Indian & Australian income (and maybe China's, and maybe Lend Lease itself). But Balthazor can likely confirm the steep costs involved with running more than 1 active front at a time, even when he does well. This is pretty much what the Japanese had to deal with; they did try to boost their economy as much as they could, but it wasn't going to put them anywhere close to the US's. The historical high water mark should bring Japanese income up over 250 per turn. Next version should get that easily above 300.

I am a bit wary of reducing Chinese or Indian income because an Allied defeat in Burma will mean losing 30 MPPs when the scripts are shifted from the Burma Road to the Hump.

I would need to know a few more bits of information tho. [Yes I realize your AAR has commenced and you're not anywhere near turn 40 yet] Who won the big carrier clashes, if any have happened yet? [In my game I won't reach parity with his navy until sometime in the 1st half of 1944] Did Japan try to raid the Lend Lease lines with his subs?

Did your opponent just throw caution to the wind and attacked everywhere there was a front (China & Burma/India), reducing both Japanese entrenchment and unit strength as well as Allied unit strength (leaving them vulnerable to IJA counterattacks)? I know the combat predictor shows Chinese & Indian units losing 3 strength attacking a fully entrenched enemy unit, tho I have managed to kill 2 of his corps in China who didn't entrench fully yet.

One thing which .815 changed was to make the National Morale scripts more consistent-and more deleterious to the Allies if they just sitzkrieg into 1944.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

I appreciate the report, roy64 (here I thought OCB & I were doing well to be on turn 16). 40 turns would put you into mid '43 I believe?

Note I had already agreed with him to increase the DEI income (3 more oil wells), with likely decreases in Indian & Australian income (and maybe China's, and maybe Lend Lease itself). But Balthazor can likely confirm the steep costs involved with running more than 1 active front at a time, even when he does well. This is pretty much what the Japanese had to deal with; they did try to boost their economy as much as they could, but it wasn't going to put them anywhere close to the US's. The historical high water mark should bring Japanese income up over 250 per turn. Next version should get that easily above 300.

I am a bit wary of reducing Chinese or Indian income because an Allied defeat in Burma will mean losing 30 MPPs when the scripts are shifted from the Burma Road to the Hump.

I would need to know a few more bits of information tho. [Yes I realize your AAR has commenced and you're not anywhere near turn 40 yet] Who won the big carrier clashes, if any have happened yet? [In my game I won't reach parity with his navy until sometime in the 1st half of 1944] Did Japan try to raid the Lend Lease lines with his subs?

Did your opponent just throw caution to the wind and attacked everywhere there was a front (China & Burma/India), reducing both Japanese entrenchment and unit strength as well as Allied unit strength (leaving them vulnerable to IJA counterattacks)? I know the combat predictor shows Chinese & Indian units losing 3 strength attacking a fully entrenched enemy unit, tho I have managed to kill 2 of his corps in China who didn't entrench fully yet.

One thing which .815 changed was to make the National Morale scripts more consistent-and more deleterious to the Allies if they just sitzkrieg into 1944.

Yes..I can confirm that running multiple fronts will run you into a deficit. [:D]

Adding the oil wells will be not only a help..but realistic.

Also..the Burma thing. Its too easy for the Allies to block the approaches off to Rangoon early on. I suggest nerfing the Indians initially by removing Inf Warfare off but them having a chit in that research tech.

They just couldn't stand up to the Japanese at the beginning of the campaign..at least the ones in Burma. Also, Elessar and I discussed some other aspects of that campaign..including the fact that the Burmese basically rose up behind the Allies and harassed them as they retreated out of Burma. So I found out from Elessar that there is no way to enable partisans against Allies..but he suggested figuring out away to dink their supply..maybe by some scorched earth mechanism..though not sure how that works.

One other thing I would suggest is a Burmese Nat Army unit of 1 or 2 un-upgraded divisions that could be had by DEC with a modest expenditure.

I also don't want Japan to be raking in MMP's..but if all the historical conquests are made..then the convoy lines + native income should be at least in the low to medium 300's range..until Industry tech goes up.

Anyway..its real close to being perfect in my opinion. I think though the money for Japan is a little too tight. But I will re-empathize I would like to see a modest increase..which can be achieved by adding the oil wells and making Burma a easier to take..which will open that convoy route to Japan.

cheers.

[roy64]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

I appreciate the report, roy64 (here I thought OCB & I were doing well to be on turn 16). 40 turns would put you into mid '43 I believe?

December 42, 40 turns is 20 turns each sorry for the confusion.

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Note I had already agreed with him to increase the DEI income (3 more oil wells), with likely decreases in Indian & Australian income (and maybe China's, and maybe Lend Lease itself).

That might help a little.

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

But Balthazor can likely confirm the steep costs involved with running more than 1 active front at a time, even when he does well.

But I'm not running any active fronts. Jazon is, all I can do is hope to survive his attacks. He attacks causing huge casualty's & I spend my entire income on replacements.

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

This is pretty much what the Japanese had to deal with; they did try to boost their economy as much as they could, but it wasn't going to put them anywhere close to the US's. The historical high water mark should bring Japanese income up over 250 per turn. Next version should get that easily above 300.

I think this is where the problem is your trying to make the mod to historical giving the Japanese player no chance of winning the game.

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

I am a bit wary of reducing Chinese or Indian income because an Allied defeat in Burma will mean losing 30 MPPs when the scripts are shifted from the Burma Road to the Hump.

When you gave the Chinese an extra HQ & other reinforcements you gave a huge advantage to China. Now all the Chinese have to do is surround a town with HQ support & easily destroy the defender. Then onward to the next town. There's absolutely no chance of an attack on the Burma Road.

Maybe Japan needs more HQ's?

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Who won the big carrier clashes, if any have happened yet? [In my game I won't reach parity with his navy until sometime in the 1st half of 1944] Did Japan try to raid the Lend Lease lines with his subs?

I'm not in a position to attack his navy as my new carriers have arrived with no planes or tech & only 80% finished with no money to fix them[&:] As for the rest of the fleet it's now so badly damaged it wouldn't survive any large naval battle with all my carriers needing new planes. I need more money.[:)] Also I can't invest in tech to get my fourth carrier.

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Did your opponent just throw caution to the wind and attacked everywhere there was a front (China & Burma/India), reducing both Japanese entrenchment and unit strength as well as Allied unit strength (leaving them vulnerable to IJA counterattacks)? I know the combat predictor shows Chinese & Indian units losing 3 strength attacking a fully entrenched enemy unit, tho I have managed to kill 2 of his corps in China who didn't entrench fully yet.

Yes he is & doing a fine job at it as well [:(] Again there wont be any counter attacks as he is absolutely hammering me with every attack. I've lost so many troops now & have no hope of buying any more. This leaves the US to invest in tech & build up his forces.

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

One thing which .815 changed was to make the National Morale scripts more consistent-and more deleterious to the Allies if they just sitzkrieg into 1944.

I don't think it will help that much to be honest.

Japan has no chance to invest in tech,repair or buy units as is at the moment.
Maybe Japan needs more tech to begin with as i believe you gave the US an advantage in tech when they don't really need it, Again I think your trying to make the game to historical.

I'm still having great fun with the mod & just giving you a bit of feedback

[Unfortunate Son]

Some observations watching the videos and reading the AAR regarding the game play in this great mod.

Adding the 3 oil fields in DEI as mentioned above is a good addition to the mod.

It is going to be very difficult for the "Average player" to win or even have any success past mid year 1942. Thats if they haven't made any mistakes. OCB is having a difficult time getting into Burma. That wasn't the case historically. Japan captured Rangoon in March 42.

Another comment regarding this mod... I understand the historical impact partisans played and I get the accuracy in which the mod has been been following. The amount of partisans in this mod might be more than the "average Japanese player" can manage. If the partisans were reduced by 30% I think there would still be plenty for the Japanese player to have to deal with. This seems like the Japanese player has to tie up to many front line units to keep partisans at bay. Maybe add in the mod without having to purchase them a dozen security units and or decrease partisan spawning.

[roy64]

ORIGINAL: Unfortunate Son

Some observations watching the videos and reading the AAR regarding the game play in this great mod.

Adding the 3 oil fields in DEI as mentioned above is a good addition to the mod.

It is going to be very difficult for the "Average player" to win or even have any success past mid year 1942. Thats if they haven't made any mistakes. OCB is having a difficult time getting into Burma. That wasn't the case historically. Japan captured Rangoon in March 42.

That's the problem, who will want to play head to head if you know you don't have a chance to win.[8|]

[Unfortunate Son]

Agreed or should I say I agree with you @roy64

[roy64]

It's not going to be easy to balance this mod until more people get involved & give more feedback.

[Elessar2]

Added 3 new DEI wells last night. I am already going to be adding some quasi-partisan Burma events via Supply scripts (the vanilla ones copied over, assumes the UK said Yes to the original DE), and the Indians will all start unupgraded. My worry if I give them L0 for Inf Weap is that once the Japanese move past the chokepoint that OCB is currently stuck on they'll just keep on rolling to Calcutta, and beyond. Also in the works are tweaks to ground attack (lessening damage but increasing morale hits) and some more Japanese units with high experience (which is where their historical edge came from not from tech so much). Already dropped the Indian & Chinese Ind Mods by 5% (~7-8 MPPs), reduced max Lend Lease by 2% (15 MPPs).

It can likely be ready by Monday morning at the latest.

While I have managed to pick off a few of his units, it still seems difficult for the Chinese to go fully over to the offensive that early & easily. Note I am not doubting you, but all I've been able to do is snipe here and there when his units are sufficiently damaged-taking down undamaged ones isn't happening.

My philosophy is that the Japanese player has to pick one target at a time (once the Happy Time ends c. May/June '42), go all in on it, and be very sparing in where else he expends his effort, esp. with his navy. I can't simulate oil consumption, so overuse of his ships and the resulting damage they'll take will have to do. Those experience edges will melt away from overuse as well (which is also historical).

[Unfortunate Son]

Elessar2,
I have not played this great mod you have created. I certainly will do so at some point. These are just observations and my own experiences playing these games and understanding the historical aspect as to what actually occurred in WW2.

As a mod... The "average" Japanese player should have the option to invade India as the IJA tried to do. Making it a gamble perhaps due to logistics/supply.

The "average" Japanese player should have the option to do more than historical outcome. If the "Happy Time ends May/June 42" that is still in the first quarter of the game. Not sure how many players will want to be on defense for 3 quarters of the game.

Just some constructive feed back.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Unfortunate Son

Elessar2,
I have not played this great mod you have created. I certainly will do so at some point. These are just observations and my own experiences playing these games and understanding the historical aspect as to what actually occurred in WW2.

As a mod... The "average" Japanese player should have the option to invade India as the IJA tried to do. Making it a gamble perhaps due to logistics/supply.

The "average" Japanese player should have the option to do more than historical outcome. If the "Happy Time ends May/June 42" that is still in the first quarter of the game. Not sure how many players will want to be on defense for 3 quarters of the game.

Just some constructive feed back.

I just got to say is that this version .815 is REAL CLOSE to be balanced as both I and Elessar wishes it to be.
I have 17 recordings that illustrates that. I may consider releasing these vids on a daily basis to show the potential that Japan has to succeed early on as was done historical. I have achieved everything and a little beyond what Japan did actually..EXCEPT Burma.

The changes that Elessar is proposing should gain us the effects that we wish for.
btw..I wouldn't worry too much of Japan rolling India just because Burma falls. The terrain on the Burman-India-Chinese border areas is even worse than the Thai-Burma border. Also..the Japanese weren't even able to muster an offensive into India..and China for that matter...till 1944.

Like I say again..its real close to optimal in my opinion already. With the changes Elessar intends to make...and as I have advocated on behalf of the Japanese side...I think it will gain both the historical and playable metrics we desire.
cheers

[Unfortunate Son]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Unfortunate Son

Elessar2,
I have not played this great mod you have created. I certainly will do so at some point. These are just observations and my own experiences playing these games and understanding the historical aspect as to what actually occurred in WW2.

As a mod... The "average" Japanese player should have the option to invade India as the IJA tried to do. Making it a gamble perhaps due to logistics/supply.

The "average" Japanese player should have the option to do more than historical outcome. If the "Happy Time ends May/June 42" that is still in the first quarter of the game. Not sure how many players will want to be on defense for 3 quarters of the game.

Just some constructive feed back.

I just got to say is that this version .815 is REAL CLOSE to be balanced as both I and Elessar wishes it to be.
I have 17 recordings that illustrates that. I may consider releasing these vids on a daily basis to show the potential that Japan has to succeed early on as was done historical. I have achieved everything and a little beyond what Japan did actually..EXCEPT Burma.

The changes that Elessar is proposing should gain us the effects that we wish for.
btw..I wouldn't worry too much of Japan rolling India just because Burma falls. The terrain on the Burman-India-Chinese border areas is even worse than the Thai-Burma border. Also..the Japanese weren't even able to muster an offensive into India..and China for that matter...till 1944.

Like I say again..its real close to optimal in my opinion already. With the changes Elessar intends to make...and as I have advocated on behalf of the Japanese side...I think it will gain both the historical and playable metrics we desire.
cheers

Old Crow if you are satisfied with the changes that have been made recently that will help the balance of the mod I'm good with your assessment.

I still hope that the Japanese player can stay on offensive past the the May/June 42 mark. I still feel most players may not want to be on the defensive for 3 quarters of the game.

[roy64]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Unfortunate Son

Elessar2,
I have not played this great mod you have created. I certainly will do so at some point. These are just observations and my own experiences playing these games and understanding the historical aspect as to what actually occurred in WW2.

As a mod... The "average" Japanese player should have the option to invade India as the IJA tried to do. Making it a gamble perhaps due to logistics/supply.

The "average" Japanese player should have the option to do more than historical outcome. If the "Happy Time ends May/June 42" that is still in the first quarter of the game. Not sure how many players will want to be on defense for 3 quarters of the game.

Just some constructive feed back.

I just got to say is that this version .815 is REAL CLOSE to be balanced as both I and Elessar wishes it to be.
I have 17 recordings that illustrates that. I may consider releasing these vids on a daily basis to show the potential that Japan has to succeed early on as was done historical. I have achieved everything and a little beyond what Japan did actually..EXCEPT Burma.

The changes that Elessar is proposing should gain us the effects that we wish for.
btw..I wouldn't worry too much of Japan rolling India just because Burma falls. The terrain on the Burman-India-Chinese border areas is even worse than the Thai-Burma border. Also..the Japanese weren't even able to muster an offensive into India..and China for that matter...till 1944.

Like I say again..its real close to optimal in my opinion already. With the changes Elessar intends to make...and as I have advocated on behalf of the Japanese side...I think it will gain both the historical and playable metrics we desire.
cheers

Personally I think your wrong. I think Japan needs more tech & HQ's to have any chance of winning the game(& more dosh). If Japan is attacked on all fronts they don't have a chance to spend money on tech or buy\upgrade anything. That means Japan can't do anything after their initial success.

[Elessar2]

As said I am working on several avenues, so you are arguing against nobody; I am shooting for 300-320 MPP for Japan's high-water mark income (right now it's ~255). [I just have some convoy issues that I just asked Hubert in Tech Support about.] My latest brainstorm is to require a tech [working title Army Mobilization, replacing Tank Morale which would be rolled in with the infantry morale tech] to expand a country's army past early game build limits. This will limit among other things the number of early mech & tank units (I've used those to good effect in China as OCB can attest to).

What I've already noticed is that if a major country is left alone for a period of time it can fairly quickly buy out most of its force pool (esp. true if that force pool is relatively small c.f. India and Australia and even the UK). Japan will get a bit of an edge here [L1 if not L2] but will also need to invest in it if she wants to expand beyond the at-start build limits as the game goes on. [working number for garrisons is 4 per level allowing more for anti-partisan and island occupation duties]

I just want to go on record [game design observation coming up] as being a bit perturbed by victory conditions which give someone a "Minor Victory" even as the 4 walls are coming down on their empire and their capital is about to be beseiged, just because they managed to beat some arbitrary deadline somewhere (that will have to play a part of course), where I'd prefer total victory instead, either way.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: roy64

Personally I think your wrong. I think Japan needs more tech & HQ's to have any chance of winning the game(& more dosh). If Japan is attacked on all fronts they don't have a chance to spend money on tech or buy\upgrade anything. That means Japan can't do anything after their initial success.

Well your entitled to your own opinion. I am basing my assessments on daily (for at least a month and a half) tests as we progressed through the versions. I'm talking hundreds of hours. This thing isn't done yet. There's a lot under the hood that has and is being tinkered with.

Here's also a snippet of a convo I had off forum on this matter about Japan:

Copy (some portions redacted)>
Too much money for Japan not a good idea..but like I stated before here and on the Forum..a little more from the convoys would be desirable..plus if they get Burma early like near historical..then we may nail the income right.

Also..who says nobody wants to fight defensively after the early conquests for the rest of the game? Shit..that's what Japan has to face!

What they have to do is set up their defensive perimeter, as I have done (spoiler..but by Turn 17 Sept 1942 I achieve this sans Burma.but have Burma-Thai border), refit, upgrade, and replenish the fleet...and seek to WIN a 'Midway' type battle or two 🙂

This is my opinion based on scores of hours conducting these tests both hotseat and multiplayer with Elessar (John DiFool). We have done other multi-turn tests..I recorded them but disposed them because we made discoveries and had to do restarts.
<End Copy

[roy64]

Who's arguing? there's no need to be so defensive guys I'm only trying to give you some feedback. Anyway good luck with your mod.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: roy64

Who's arguing? there's no need to be so defensive guys I'm only trying to give you some feedback. Anyway good luck with your mod.

You have valid points about Japans weak income. Only reason I responded as I did because you said "Personally I think your wrong." I actually agree that Japan needs more income. Elessar is addressing this. Its the old argument realism vs playability here.
How about listing what you would like for Japan in your view...more granular than just 'more tech & HQ'S...more 'dosh' (I guess that means money?'). Since I'm have been testing Japan continously..I do understand that. [:D]