Combined Historical Scenario - Aircraft

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

No P80s. I have no way to represent their massive teething problems and that their operational loss rate was 4.1:1 over P47s.

Yes the Russians & Chinese are still there.

Someone needs to tell me 5 or squadrons that used the B25G/H/solid J.
That way i can split upgrade paths.
I need this fairly quickly.

Mike

Mike Kraemer would know.

[Bulldog61]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

No P80s. I have no way to represent their massive teething problems and that their operational loss rate was 4.1:1 over P47s.

Yes the Russians & Chinese are still there.

Someone needs to tell me 5 or squadrons that used the B25G/H/solid J.
That way i can split upgrade paths.
I need this fairly quickly.

Mike

Mike Kraemer would know.

Sadly my source (Combat Squadrons of the Air Force in World War II) doesn't breakdown the sub models of the aiecraft.
Granted the P-80's had some teething problems But the 412th Fighter Group( 29th,31st and 445th FS's) was deploying to Okinawa. With the end of the war the Air Force didn't make the group operational until January 1946.

[Herrbear]

My sources say that the P-47D was the first model to be used in the Pacific, not the P-47C.

[Herrbear]

I have found the following from the web.

501 BS B-25G mid-44
499 BS B-25J solid nose mid-45
498 BS B-25J solid nose mid-45

All are part of the 345 BG

[Hipper]

Hi Folks

If you are interested at all Ive found some figures for max speed and maximum climb for sea hurricanes (various types) and the Tropicalised versions of Land based Hurricanes (with the air filter which decreased performance a bit)

Its out of Janes 1945 ( £ 10 in bargan books) which is a bit general in some cases but has some detailed figures on older british planes

Ill post it tonight if you would be interested though I think you may have all the info already.... Gives max speed for a sea hurricane IB at 298 mph unfortunatly for RN fanboys !

cheers keep up with the good work

[Hipper]

Hi folks

as promised some info from the 1945/46 edition of janes

In general such an early source should not be considered that relyable but it should be ok for early war british aircraft (where it mentions them) besides I have not been able to get this information anywhere else


Aircraft Max level speed max rate of climb time to 20000 ft service ceiling

Sea Hurricane
1B 296 1950 12 30000
IIB 320 2780 7.6 35500
IIC 314 2670 8.0 34500


Hurricane II (Tropical)

IIB 334 2850 7.7 35500
IIC 328 2650 8.3 34000

note that the sea hurrcane IB drop 34 mph max speed for a weight add on of 166 lbs !!

Sea Hurricane IIs never served on a british fleet carrier ( just a few escort carriers starting in 1942 covering Torch ) becoming available at the same time as the seafire I & II however they did have provision for drop tanks doubling their range.

All huricane II's in the far east had the tropical sand filters ... whether they needed them or not !

Anyway I'll try to stop obsessing about hurricanes now....
all I need is the performance figures of the IC (4X20mm cannon )

cheers

[Don Bowen]

I am working on replacing the US Air Groups with individual squadrons.

In reviewing the US Fighter squadrons I notice that a very large number of the P-40 Squadrons upgrade to P-47. In our scenario the upgrade path for P-40s stops at the "N" model.

In order to allow normal upgrade through the P-40 models and then to P-47 I am proposing that the P-40N be set to upgrade to the P-47 - probably the "D" model in September, 1943 as most of the squadrons appear to change over in 1943.

I am also going to drop the (H), (M), and (L) designations from Bombardment Squadrons as I find many switched between Heavy, Medium, and Light.

Opinions?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I am working on replacing the US Air Groups with individual squadrons.

In reviewing the US Fighter squadrons I notice that a very large number of the P-40 Squadrons upgrade to P-47. In our scenario the upgrade path for P-40s stops at the "N" model.

In order to allow normal upgrade through the P-40 models and then to P-47 I am proposing that the P-40N be set to upgrade to the P-47 - probably the "D" model in September, 1943 as most of the squadrons appear to change over in 1943.

I am also going to drop the (H), (M), and (L) designations from Bombardment Squadrons as I find many switched between Heavy, Medium, and Light.

Opinions?

Makes sense. Hey, were we not advised by Mike Kraemer and Pry that the p-38 F equipped some squadrons on the west coast early on?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I am working on replacing the US Air Groups with individual squadrons.

In reviewing the US Fighter squadrons I notice that a very large number of the P-40 Squadrons upgrade to P-47. In our scenario the upgrade path for P-40s stops at the "N" model.

In order to allow normal upgrade through the P-40 models and then to P-47 I am proposing that the P-40N be set to upgrade to the P-47 - probably the "D" model in September, 1943 as most of the squadrons appear to change over in 1943.

I am also going to drop the (H), (M), and (L) designations from Bombardment Squadrons as I find many switched between Heavy, Medium, and Light.

Opinions?

Makes sense. Hey, were we not advised by Mike Kraemer and Pry that the p-38 F equipped some squadrons on the west coast early on?

It might even have been the P-38E if memory serves. I'm looking at that general area now. We don't have the "F" model (much less the "E") in our current scenario.

[Herrbear]

It might even have been the P-38E if memory serves. I'm looking at that general area now. We don't have the "F" model (much less the "E") in our current scenario.
[/quote]

The link below indicates that a couple of squadrons of P-38 were based at March Field in California on Dec 7. They have to be E or F's as the G did not begin to roll out until 6/42.

http://www.usaaf.net/chron/41/dec41e.htm

[pry]

Total Built

36 P-38C
210 P-38E
527 P-38F

I used the 38F in my scenario as a combination of the E and F

remember 1.5 will render scenario defined upgrade paths useless the player can decide what aircraft to use and they will...

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

It might even have been the P-38E if memory serves. I'm looking at that general area now. We don't have the "F" model (much less the "E") in our current scenario.

The link below indicates that a couple of squadrons of P-38 were based at March Field in California on Dec 7. They have to be E or F's as the G did not begin to roll out until 6/42.

http://www.usaaf.net/chron/41/dec41e.htm

Looks like the 48th and 49th Fighter. Both of these squadrons were in California for 6 months and then went to England. I'm trying to balance such withdrawals by either not including them or by dropping a like number of late war squadrons. My squadron research has only progressed into the 20s - more later.

[pry]

Figured I give you a sneak peak at what I have in the works, broke both sides down to the Squadron/Chutai level (Edit Where Possible). 12/7/41 Phnom Penn and Los Angeles as examples.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: pry

Figured I give you a sneak peak at what I have in the works, broke both sides down to the Squadron/Chutai level. 12/7/41 Phnom Penn and Los Angeles as examples.

We ought to get together, I'm working on about the same thing for the US Army.

[TheElf]

PRY, are you working on a new scenario? If so what is its premise. Just curious. Thanks

[Bulldog61]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I am working on replacing the US Air Groups with individual squadrons.

In reviewing the US Fighter squadrons I notice that a very large number of the P-40 Squadrons upgrade to P-47. In our scenario the upgrade path for P-40s stops at the "N" model.

In order to allow normal upgrade through the P-40 models and then to P-47 I am proposing that the P-40N be set to upgrade to the P-47 - probably the "D" model in September, 1943 as most of the squadrons appear to change over in 1943.

I am also going to drop the (H), (M), and (L) designations from Bombardment Squadrons as I find many switched between Heavy, Medium, and Light.

Opinions?

Do you need a list of sqdn's and when they arrive?

[Bulldog61]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I am working on replacing the US Air Groups with individual squadrons.

In reviewing the US Fighter squadrons I notice that a very large number of the P-40 Squadrons upgrade to P-47. In our scenario the upgrade path for P-40s stops at the "N" model.

In order to allow normal upgrade through the P-40 models and then to P-47 I am proposing that the P-40N be set to upgrade to the P-47 - probably the "D" model in September, 1943 as most of the squadrons appear to change over in 1943.

I am also going to drop the (H), (M), and (L) designations from Bombardment Squadrons as I find many switched between Heavy, Medium, and Light.

Opinions?

Makes sense. Hey, were we not advised by Mike Kraemer and Pry that the p-38 F equipped some squadrons on the west coast early on?

On Dec 7th, the 27th, 71st and 94th FS of the 1st FG were equiped with P-38E's and trasfered to San Diego by Dec 11th 1941. They flew patrols out of San Diego and Long Beach (LA) until sent to the ETO on 20 May 42. Also the 48th and 49th of the 14th FG were equiped with P-38E's. The 50th FS of the 14th FG was Equiped with P-40's and reequiping with P-38 E's at the time of PH and should be equiped by the end of December 41. The 14th flew out of March AAF(Army Airfield) until June 3rd 42 When it also was sent to the ETO. as near as I can tell both groups re-equiped with P-38F's prior to departing the west Coast. The big difference that I could discern between the E's and F's was the inability to mount drop tanks (range) on the E's. While the P-38E's never left CONUS. Six sqdn's of P-38E's might put a real damper on a Japanesse players plans for invading the West Coast early in the Game.
Also most sqdn's equipped with P-40's were upgraded to P-47's by some mid 44. Some Upgraded to P-38's earlier.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: MikeKraemer

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I am working on replacing the US Air Groups with individual squadrons.

In reviewing the US Fighter squadrons I notice that a very large number of the P-40 Squadrons upgrade to P-47. In our scenario the upgrade path for P-40s stops at the "N" model.

In order to allow normal upgrade through the P-40 models and then to P-47 I am proposing that the P-40N be set to upgrade to the P-47 - probably the "D" model in September, 1943 as most of the squadrons appear to change over in 1943.

I am also going to drop the (H), (M), and (L) designations from Bombardment Squadrons as I find many switched between Heavy, Medium, and Light.

Opinions?

Do you need a list of sqdn's and when they arrive?

Yes please - that would be great Mike. I've set myself the task of reviewing every single squadron in Combat Squadrons of the Airforce in World War II. It has enough data for the purposes of WITP but a sufficiently small entry to be quickly readable. Another set of data for a cross check (and error catcher) would be appreciated.

I'm considering making some trade off in squadrons to account for withdrawal (and the lack of it in WITP). I will probably omit the squadrons of the 1st and 20th Fighter Groups but retain the 14th - these groups were on the West Coast for the first few months of the war and then moved to the ETO. I am also considering eliminating three squadrons from the 23rd Group as the AVG will not be disbanded. I've currently reviewed squadrons up to 79 - I need to finish all the squadrons and see how things shape up.

Don

[eMonticello]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Looks like the 48th and 49th Fighter. Both of these squadrons were in California for 6 months and then went to England. I'm trying to balance such withdrawals by either not including them or by dropping a like number of late war squadrons. My squadron research has only progressed into the 20s - more later.

I suggest only including air groups that headed to PTO and exclude any air group that headed to ETO, MTO, or remained CONUS (since many of the CONUS groups were Operational Training Units (OTU) or Replacement Training Units (RTU)).

[pry]

I am also considering eliminating three squadrons from the 23rd Group as the AVG will not be disbanded.

Simple Fix Don