Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yes Leander class light cruisers have 8 x 21" TT but that won't help much because Graf Spee had radar which as you know can see through smoke.[;)]

Well, I'm not a naval war expert, but I believed that radar directed gunfire was much less precise than normal gunfire, and that during WW2 only the Americans had used radar directed gunfire successfully during the naval battles in the Surigao straits in late 1944 against Japanese ships with which they had no visual contact, and that this was the first occurence of such a fight.

I believed that the radars installed in warships, especially the first models that the warships of 1939 / 1940 had, were only useful for navigation and detection, not gun directing.

Am I wrong ?

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

No your correct just for detection,just meant that Graf Spee could locate the light cruisers through smoke if need be,so smoke screen would not help them thats all.[:)]

I never mentioned radar directed gunfire !!!!!![;)]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

No your correct just for detection,just meant that Graf Spee could locate the light cruisers through smoke if need be,so smoke screen would not help them thats all.[:)]

I never mentioned radar directed gunfire !!!!!![;)]

Ah yes, I though about radar directed gunfire because the cruisers outrun the Graf Spee, so even if the Graf Spee knows where they are, she can't evade them. Her only way of evade them is shelling them and damaging them enough so that they sow down or sink. Moreover, there were 3 cruisers, so they could have had a torpedo shot at the Graf Spee.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yes Leander class light cruisers have 8 x 21" TT but that won't help much because Graf Spee had radar which as you know can see through smoke.[;)]

Well, I'm not a naval war expert, but I believed that radar directed gunfire was much less precise than normal gunfire, and that during WW2 only the Americans had used radar directed gunfire successfully during the naval battles in the Surigao straits in late 1944 against Japanese ships with which they had no visual contact, and that this was the first occurence of such a fight.

I believed that the radars installed in warships, especially the first models that the warships of 1939 / 1940 had, were only useful for navigation and detection, not gun directing.

Am I wrong ?

I looked this up because I had no idea that Admiral Graf Spee had radar and I was also wondering if it could direct gunfire.

According to wikipedia Graf Spee had an Seetakt radar. The version before the one that Graf Spee (Graf Spee had a better version) was equipped with managed to spot a ship 8 km away, with an accuracy of up to 50 m, enough for gun-laying. This was considerably more accurate that the guns they ranged for, which typically had spreads of over 100 m. It was also much better than the optical rangefinding equipment of the era, which would typically be accurate to about 200 m at 20,000 m.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seetakt_radar

[micheljq]

NVM. deleted.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

All true but in my eyes it's better to go down fighting than let yourself be scuttled,maybe a bit to agressive, but I would have taken the damage,closed the range on Exeter and blown her out of the water,then turned my attention on the those annoying light cruiser,with my main + secondary armaments,I don't think Ajax or Achilles could have withstood much 11in shell damage before being SUNK,they can't shadow and give position reports if they are at the bottom of the south atlantic,the army and airforce were fighting and taking heavy losses,the navy should have done the same,I mean they were supposed to be at war.

All reports after the battle showed that it was Exeters 8in shells, that were penetrating Admiral Graf Spee armour and doing damage,Ajax and Achilles 6in shells in general were not penetrating her armour,so the damage they were inflicting was more annoying than a major concern.After Exeter had been sunk, I feel the light cruisers would have had to try and increase the range or suffer the same fate of Exeter.

Then when at there max 6in gun range any hits would be fewer, but Admiral Graf Spees 11in shells with the aid of plunging fire, would go through Ajax & Achilles armour like a hot knife through butter,with only one outcome the destruction of the ship.

Warspite1

HFJ

"I would have taken the damage, closed the range on Exeter and blown her out of the water"

That`s what Langsdorff tried to do. Having made up his mind to attack he sought to close the range fast - and as the bigger threat, turned his 11-inchers on Exeter. However the RN ship would not die, and she was not rendered hors de combat until she had smacked the Graf Spee - the very thing Langsdorff could not afford to happen.

"then turned my attention on the those annoying light cruiser, with my main + secondary armaments, I don't think Ajax or Achilles could have withstood much 11in shell damage before being SUNK"

But again, Graf Spee DID (so giving Exeter respite), and the British/Kiwi cruisers DIDN`T!

"they can't shadow and give position reports if they are at the bottom of the south atlantic"

They did shadow the Graf Spee - all the way into Montevideo. Occasionally they strayed too close, and Graf Spee would open up, but they were never hit - and never lost contact.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

All true but in my eyes it's better to go down fighting than let yourself be scuttled,maybe a bit to agressive, but I would have taken the damage,closed the range on Exeter and blown her out of the water,then turned my attention on the those annoying light cruiser,with my main + secondary armaments,I don't think Ajax or Achilles could have withstood much 11in shell damage before being SUNK,they can't shadow and give position reports if they are at the bottom of the south atlantic,the army and airforce were fighting and taking heavy losses,the navy should have done the same,I mean they were supposed to be at war.

All reports after the battle showed that it was Exeters 8in shells, that were penetrating Admiral Graf Spee armour and doing damage,Ajax and Achilles 6in shells in general were not penetrating her armour,so the damage they were inflicting was more annoying than a major concern.After Exeter had been sunk, I feel the light cruisers would have had to try and increase the range or suffer the same fate of Exeter.

Then when at there max 6in gun range any hits would be fewer, but Admiral Graf Spees 11in shells with the aid of plunging fire, would go through Ajax & Achilles armour like a hot knife through butter,with only one outcome the destruction of the ship.

I think you underestimate what damage the always aggressive, and skilled, English could do. Maybe they would try to do smoke screens and get in close and torpedo Admiral Graf Spee. That is asuming that the light cruisers had torpedos.

Warspite 1

"I think you underestimate what damage the always aggressive, and skilled, English could do"

Well said Orm! [:)]

"Maybe they would try to do smoke screens and get in close and torpedo Admiral Graf Spee. That is asuming that the light cruisers had torpedos".

That`s exactly what they did try - as did the Graf Spee - though with no success

[warspite1]

Given the discussion above, please see attached the write up for Graf Spee, which is finished subject to any comment.

[4784 Graf Spee - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 54,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 28 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 11-inch (280mm), 8 x 5.9-inch (150mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 16,200 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inch (belt)
.P Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, the German Navy was allowed
to build warships up to a 10,000 ton displacement and with 11-inch main armament.
These limitations were designed to restrict the type of vessel that the Germans
could realistically build. Nothing more than a coastal defence type unit was
likely to be achieved within these limitations..or so it was thought.
.P However, the German designers came up with a design that met the restrictions
but provided a useful, modern, surface raider. The key principle was that the
ships had to be more powerful than any faster ship and faster than any more
powerful ship, and this was true at the time they were built, with the exception
of the three Royal Navy battlecruisers: Hood, Repulse and Renown.
.P The ships used diesel engines, which were more economical than steam turbines,
something necessary for a surface raider. The use of diesel also meant that the
engines produced less smoke; again a bonus given their planned deployment.
.P To the Germans, these were panzerschiffe or armoured ships. To the British
they became known as pocket-battleships. However, as with all ships, there were
compromises to be made. The class were thinly armoured and had all their main
armament concentrated in just two turrets.
.P Up to eight ships were planned originally, but only three were laid down and
completed before the appearance of the French Dunkerque-class made the Germans
re-think future ships.
.P In 1940 they were re-classified as heavy cruisers.
.P Graf Spee was completed in January 1936. She set out for her first deployment
on the 21st August 1939, eleven days before the outbreak of the Second World War.
Her task was to get herself in position in the South Atlantic to await the order
to begin attacking Allied merchant shipping. To assist her operation, the supply
ship Altmark had sailed at the beginning of August for the USA where she loaded
up with fuel and other stores for the Graf Spee`s future use (see Transport
Counter 4822).
.P It was only on the 26th September that Graf Spee was given the opportunity to
attack but Captain Langsdorff, in command of the Graf Spee, was also given orders
not to attack enemy naval vessels, even if more lightly armed than his own.
Furthermore, his ability to attack merchant shipping was restricted because of
the Prize Regulations. After the propaganda disaster that was the U-30`s attack
on the liner Athenia, no attacks on passenger vessels were allowed either.
.P The British and French formed eight hunting groups to try and track down the
surface raiders. These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.
.P In the period September to December 1939, the Graf Spee sank nine merchant
ships totalling just over 50,000 GRT in the South Atlantic and the Indian Oceans.
During these nine sinkings, no Allied sailors were killed, as Langsdorff followed
the Prize Regulations. The merchant sailors captured were then transferred to the
Altmark as and when Graf Spee rendezvoused with her supply ship.
.P In early December, Langsdorff decided it was time to head back to Germany.
Graf Spee was starting to feel the effects of almost four months at sea and her
engines needed maintenance. Langsdorff decided to sail for the rich pickings to
be found off the River Plate estuary on the South American trade route, before
beginning the voyage back to Germany.
.P This was where the Royal Navy`s Commodore Henry Harwood, had guessed that Graf
Spee would go next. Harwood was in command of Force G that consisted of the heavy
cruiser Exeter and the light cruisers Achillies and Ajax. Harwood had devised a
plan of attack to beat the pocket-battleships using a cruiser force before the
war; this plan was about to be put into effect.
.P Langsdorff had grown increasingly frustrated by his orders which were clear;
he could not engage with enemy naval forces. Contrary to popular belief, it was
not Harwood that spotted and then attacked Graf Spee; rather it was Langsdorff
that spotted the Royal Navy cruisers and chose to do battle. His decision to
engage on the morning of the 13th December was a risky one as he needed to sink
or sufficiently cripple his opponents. If he did not, Graf Spee would not have
the speed to shake off a subsequent shadowing by the cruisers who would bring
every available ship down on the panzerschiffe.
.P The battle started at 0617hrs when Graf Spee opened up her 11-inch guns at
just over 21,500 yards. She headed at top speed toward the cruisers in order
to close the range. Exeter took the brunt of Graf Spee`s initial salvos which
were deadly accurate, but three minutes later, Exeter was able to return fire
and scored a hit on one of the German 4.1-inch anti-aircraft guns and her fresh
water plant. Graf Spee then scored a direct hit on Exeter`s B turret and
splinters from this shell smashed into her bridge killing almost everyone there.
Exeter`s Captain Bell was wounded, but was able to continue giving orders from
the secondary control position.
.P Meanwhile, the light cruisers had begun opening fire at 0622hrs and at about
0630hrs, with Exeter having taken severe punishment, Langsdorff turned his
attention to Ajax and Achilles. While the three ships fired at each other, Exeter
used the respite to launch an unsuccessful torpedo strike. Graf Spee then turned
her attention back to the heavy cruiser once more and for about ten minutes the
two ships, Exeter with just four guns left, duelled. The Graf Spee was hit twice
more but by now Exeter had just one turret operational. Graf Spee switched target
once more and Achilles was badly damaged by an 11-inch shell near missing her.
Her director control tower became a bloody mass of bodies. This damage affected
the firing accuracy of Achilles and both she and Ajax were having problems
hitting their target. After this, Graf Spee switched back one final time to
Exeter, resulting in the heavy cruiser breaking off the engagement at 0729hrs
when her third and final turret went out of action.
.P However, Graf Spee had not got away unscathed and her forward turret had given
her problems intermittently during the battle. The two remaining cruisers started
to hit the German ship more frequently, although many of the British shells were
simply bouncing off the German ship`s armour belt. Graf Spee responded with a
shell that took out both X and Y turret on Ajax. It was now 0730hrs and the range
was 11,000 yards. Ajax launched a torpedo strike, as did Graf Spee but neither
were successful. The fighting continued until 0740hrs, when Harwood decided to
withdraw in order to attack at night; but Graf Spee did not follow. Instead
Langsdorff headed west towards the River Plate, shadowed by the two bruised and
bloodied light cruisers. From time to time the pursuers strayed into range of the
enemy guns and had to withdraw under smokescreen, but they ensured that they
remained sufficiently close to Graf Spee so as not to lose her. Surprisingly,
Langsdorff made for the neutral country of Uruguay and Montevideo harbour rather
than the more friendly Argentina.
.P Once there, he asked the Uruguayans for time to effect repairs to his ship.
However, under international law Graf Spee could only remain in the neutral port
for 24 hours. In addition, she could not leave port less than 24 hours after a
merchant ship belonging to a country she was at war with had left port. The
British, acutely aware that there were no capital ships close to Uruguay at that
time told the captains of British and French merchant vessels in Montevideo to
leave at 24 hour intervals in order to keep Graf Spee holed up. However,
Langsdorff was in no hurry to go anywhere. He could not know there were no other
warships anywhere close to Montevideo other than the two light cruisers that Graf
Spee had just evaded, but he seemed to convince himself there were. No doubt
false intelligence fed to the Germans that this was the case did nothing to
dispel such thoughts, and it was rumoured that a large force of capital ships,
including an aircraft carrier, were anchored off the River Plate. In the end,
Langsdorff decided to scuttle his ship rather then have her interned in Uruguay
or have her fight a hopeless battle against what he thought were superior forces.
Langsdorff killed himself shortly after the scuttling.

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given the discussion above, please see attached the write up for Graf Spee, which is finished subject to any comment.

[4784 Graf Spee - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 54,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 28 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 11-inch (280mm), 8 x 5.9-inch (150mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 16,200 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inch (belt)
.P Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, the German Navy was allowed
to build warships up to a 10,000 ton displacement and with 11-inch main armament.
These limitations were designed to restrict the type of vessel that the Germans
could realistically build. Nothing more than a coastal defence type unit was
likely to be achieved within these limitations..or so it was thought.
.P However, the German designers came up with a design that met the restrictions
but provided a useful, modern, surface raider. The key principle was that the
ships had to be more powerful than any faster ship and faster than any more
powerful ship, and this was true at the time they were built, with the exception
of the three Royal Navy battlecruisers: Hood, Repulse and Renown.
.P The ships used diesel engines, which were more economical than steam turbines,
something necessary for a surface raider. The use of diesel also meant that the
engines produced less smoke; again a bonus given their planned deployment.
.P To the Germans, these were panzerschiffe or armoured ships. To the British
they became known as pocket-battleships. However, as with all ships, there were
compromises to be made. The class were thinly armoured and had all their main
armament concentrated in just two turrets.
.P Up to eight ships were planned originally, but only three were laid down and
completed before the appearance of the French Dunkerque-class made the Germans
re-think future ships.
.P In 1940 they were re-classified as heavy cruisers.
.P Graf Spee was completed in January 1936. She set out for her first deployment
on the 21st August 1939, eleven days before the outbreak of the Second World War.
Her task was to get herself in position in the South Atlantic to await the order
to begin attacking Allied merchant shipping. To assist her operation, the supply
ship Altmark had sailed at the beginning of August for the USA where she loaded
up with fuel and other stores for the Graf Spee`s future use (see Transport
Counter 4822).
.P It was only on the 26th September that Graf Spee was given the opportunity to
attack but Captain Langsdorff, in command of the Graf Spee, was also given orders
not to attack enemy naval vessels, even if more lightly armed than his own.
Furthermore, his ability to attack merchant shipping was restricted because of
the Prize Regulations. After the propaganda disaster that was the U-30`s attack
on the liner Athenia, no attacks on passenger vessels were allowed either.
.P The British and French formed eight hunting groups to try and track down the
surface raiders. These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.
.P In the period September to December 1939, the Graf Spee sank nine merchant
ships totalling just over 50,000 GRT in the South Atlantic and the Indian Oceans.
During these nine sinkings, no Allied sailors were killed, as Langsdorff followed
the Prize Regulations. The merchant sailors captured were then transferred to the
Altmark as and when Graf Spee rendezvoused with her supply ship.
.P In early December, Langsdorff decided it was time to head back to Germany.
Graf Spee was starting to feel the effects of almost four months at sea and her
engines needed maintenance. Langsdorff decided to sail for the rich pickings to
be found off the River Plate estuary on the South American trade route, before
beginning the voyage back to Germany.
.P This was where the Royal Navy`s Commodore Henry Harwood, had guessed that Graf
Spee would go next. Harwood was in command of Force G that consisted of the heavy
cruiser Exeter and the light cruisers Achillies and Ajax. Harwood had devised a
plan of attack to beat the pocket-battleships using a cruiser force before the
war; this plan was about to be put into effect.
.P Langsdorff had grown increasingly frustrated by his orders which were clear;
he could not engage with enemy naval forces. Contrary to popular belief, it was
not Harwood that spotted and then attacked Graf Spee; rather it was Langsdorff
that spotted the Royal Navy cruisers and chose to do battle. His decision to
engage on the morning of the 13th December was a risky one as he needed to sink
or sufficiently cripple his opponents. If he did not, Graf Spee would not have
the speed to shake off a subsequent shadowing by the cruisers who would bring
every available ship down on the panzerschiffe.
.P The battle started at 0617hrs when Graf Spee opened up her 11-inch guns at
just over 21,500 yards. She headed at top speed toward the cruisers in order
to close the range. Exeter took the brunt of Graf Spee`s initial salvos which
were deadly accurate, but three minutes later, Exeter was able to return fire
and scored a hit on one of the German 4.1-inch anti-aircraft guns and her fresh
water plant. Graf Spee then scored a direct hit on Exeter`s B turret and
splinters from this shell smashed into her bridge killing almost everyone there.
Exeter`s Captain Bell was wounded, but was able to continue giving orders from
the secondary control position.
.P Meanwhile, the light cruisers had begun opening fire at 0622hrs and at about
0630hrs, with Exeter having taken severe punishment, Langsdorff turned his
attention to Ajax and Achilles. While the three ships fired at each other, Exeter
used the respite to launch an unsuccessful torpedo strike. Graf Spee then turned
her attention back to the heavy cruiser once more and for about ten minutes the
two ships, Exeter with just four guns left, duelled. The Graf Spee was hit twice
more but by now Exeter had just one turret operational. Graf Spee switched target
once more and Achilles was badly damaged by an 11-inch shell near missing her.
Her director control tower became a bloody mass of bodies. This damage affected
the firing accuracy of Achilles and both she and Ajax were having problems
hitting their target. After this, Graf Spee switched back one final time to
Exeter, resulting in the heavy cruiser breaking off the engagement at 0729hrs
when her third and final turret went out of action.
.P However, Graf Spee had not got away unscathed and her forward turret had given
her problems intermittently during the battle. The two remaining cruisers started
to hit the German ship more frequently, although many of the British shells were
simply bouncing off the German ship`s armour belt. Graf Spee responded with a
shell that took out both X and Y turret on Ajax. It was now 0730hrs and the range
was 11,000 yards. Ajax launched a torpedo strike, as did Graf Spee but neither
were successful. The fighting continued until 0740hrs, when Harwood decided to
withdraw in order to attack at night; but Graf Spee did not follow. Instead
Langsdorff headed west towards the River Plate, shadowed by the two bruised and
bloodied light cruisers. From time to time the pursuers strayed into range of the
enemy guns and had to withdraw under smokescreen, but they ensured that they
remained sufficiently close to Graf Spee so as not to lose her. Surprisingly,
Langsdorff made for the neutral country of Uruguay and Montevideo harbour rather
than the more friendly Argentina.
.P Once there, he asked the Uruguayans for time to effect repairs to his ship.
However, under international law Graf Spee could only remain in the neutral port
for 24 hours. In addition, she could not leave port less than 24 hours after a
merchant ship belonging to a country she was at war with had left port. The
British, acutely aware that there were no capital ships close to Uruguay at that
time told the captains of British and French merchant vessels in Montevideo to
leave at 24 hour intervals in order to keep Graf Spee holed up. However,
Langsdorff was in no hurry to go anywhere. He could not know there were no other
warships anywhere close to Montevideo other than the two light cruisers that Graf
Spee had just evaded, but he seemed to convince himself there were. No doubt
false intelligence fed to the Germans that this was the case did nothing to
dispel such thoughts, and it was rumoured that a large force of capital ships,
including an aircraft carrier, were anchored off the River Plate. In the end,
Langsdorff decided to scuttle his ship rather then have her interned in Uruguay
or have her fight a hopeless battle against what he thought were superior forces.
Langsdorff killed himself shortly after the scuttling.

Superb Warspite1.[&o]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given the discussion above, please see attached the write up for Graf Spee, which is finished subject to any comment.

[4784 Graf Spee - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 54,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 28 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 11-inch (280mm), 8 x 5.9-inch (150mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 16,200 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inch (belt)
.P Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, the German Navy was allowed
to build warships up to a 10,000 ton displacement and with 11-inch main armament.
These limitations were designed to restrict the type of vessel that the Germans
could realistically build. Nothing more than a coastal defence type unit was
likely to be achieved within these limitations..or so it was thought.
.P However, the German designers came up with a design that met the restrictions
but provided a useful, modern, surface raider. The key principle was that the
ships had to be more powerful than any faster ship and faster than any more
powerful ship, and this was true at the time they were built, with the exception
of the three Royal Navy battlecruisers: Hood, Repulse and Renown.
.P The ships used diesel engines, which were more economical than steam turbines,
something necessary for a surface raider. The use of diesel also meant that the
engines produced less smoke; again a bonus given their planned deployment.
.P To the Germans, these were panzerschiffe or armoured ships. To the British
they became known as pocket-battleships. However, as with all ships, there were
compromises to be made. The class were thinly armoured and had all their main
armament concentrated in just two turrets.
.P Up to eight ships were planned originally, but only three were laid down and
completed before the appearance of the French Dunkerque-class made the Germans
re-think future ships.
.P In 1940 they were re-classified as heavy cruisers.
.P Graf Spee was completed in January 1936. She set out for her first deployment
on the 21st August 1939, eleven days before the outbreak of the Second World War.
Her task was to get herself in position in the South Atlantic to await the order
to begin attacking Allied merchant shipping. To assist her operation, the supply
ship Altmark had sailed at the beginning of August for the USA where she loaded
up with fuel and other stores for the Graf Spee`s future use (see Transport
Counter 4822).
.P It was only on the 26th September that Graf Spee was given the opportunity to
attack but Captain Langsdorff, in command of the Graf Spee, was also given orders
not to attack enemy naval vessels, even if more lightly armed than his own.
Furthermore, his ability to attack merchant shipping was restricted because of
the Prize Regulations. After the propaganda disaster that was the U-30`s attack
on the liner Athenia, no attacks on passenger vessels were allowed either.
.P The British and French formed eight hunting groups to try and track down the
surface raiders. These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.
.P In the period September to December 1939, the Graf Spee sank nine merchant
ships totalling just over 50,000 GRT in the South Atlantic and the Indian Oceans.
During these nine sinkings, no Allied sailors were killed, as Langsdorff followed
the Prize Regulations. The merchant sailors captured were then transferred to the
Altmark as and when Graf Spee rendezvoused with her supply ship.
.P In early December, Langsdorff decided it was time to head back to Germany.
Graf Spee was starting to feel the effects of almost four months at sea and her
engines needed maintenance. Langsdorff decided to sail for the rich pickings to
be found off the River Plate estuary on the South American trade route, before
beginning the voyage back to Germany.
.P This was where the Royal Navy`s Commodore Henry Harwood, had guessed that Graf
Spee would go next. Harwood was in command of Force G that consisted of the heavy
cruiser Exeter and the light cruisers Achillies and Ajax. Harwood had devised a
plan of attack to beat the pocket-battleships using a cruiser force before the
war; this plan was about to be put into effect.
.P Langsdorff had grown increasingly frustrated by his orders which were clear;
he could not engage with enemy naval forces. Contrary to popular belief, it was
not Harwood that spotted and then attacked Graf Spee; rather it was Langsdorff
that spotted the Royal Navy cruisers and chose to do battle. His decision to
engage on the morning of the 13th December was a risky one as he needed to sink
or sufficiently cripple his opponents. If he did not, Graf Spee would not have
the speed to shake off a subsequent shadowing by the cruisers who would bring
every available ship down on the panzerschiffe.
.P The battle started at 0617hrs when Graf Spee opened up her 11-inch guns at
just over 21,500 yards. She headed at top speed toward the cruisers in order
to close the range. Exeter took the brunt of Graf Spee`s initial salvos which
were deadly accurate, but three minutes later, Exeter was able to return fire
and scored a hit on one of the German 4.1-inch anti-aircraft guns and her fresh
water plant. Graf Spee then scored a direct hit on Exeter`s B turret and
splinters from this shell smashed into her bridge killing almost everyone there.
Exeter`s Captain Bell was wounded, but was able to continue giving orders from
the secondary control position.
.P Meanwhile, the light cruisers had begun opening fire at 0622hrs and at about
0630hrs, with Exeter having taken severe punishment, Langsdorff turned his
attention to Ajax and Achilles. While the three ships fired at each other, Exeter
used the respite to launch an unsuccessful torpedo strike. Graf Spee then turned
her attention back to the heavy cruiser once more and for about ten minutes the
two ships, Exeter with just four guns left, duelled. The Graf Spee was hit twice
more but by now Exeter had just one turret operational. Graf Spee switched target
once more and Achilles was badly damaged by an 11-inch shell near missing her.
Her director control tower became a bloody mass of bodies. This damage affected
the firing accuracy of Achilles and both she and Ajax were having problems
hitting their target. After this, Graf Spee switched back one final time to
Exeter, resulting in the heavy cruiser breaking off the engagement at 0729hrs
when her third and final turret went out of action.
.P However, Graf Spee had not got away unscathed and her forward turret had given
her problems intermittently during the battle. The two remaining cruisers started
to hit the German ship more frequently, although many of the British shells were
simply bouncing off the German ship`s armour belt. Graf Spee responded with a
shell that took out both X and Y turret on Ajax. It was now 0730hrs and the range
was 11,000 yards. Ajax launched a torpedo strike, as did Graf Spee but neither
were successful. The fighting continued until 0740hrs, when Harwood decided to
withdraw in order to attack at night; but Graf Spee did not follow. Instead
Langsdorff headed west towards the River Plate, shadowed by the two bruised and
bloodied light cruisers. From time to time the pursuers strayed into range of the
enemy guns and had to withdraw under smokescreen, but they ensured that they
remained sufficiently close to Graf Spee so as not to lose her. Surprisingly,
Langsdorff made for the neutral country of Uruguay and Montevideo harbour rather
than the more friendly Argentina.
.P Once there, he asked the Uruguayans for time to effect repairs to his ship.
However, under international law Graf Spee could only remain in the neutral port
for 24 hours. In addition, she could not leave port less than 24 hours after a
merchant ship belonging to a country she was at war with had left port. The
British, acutely aware that there were no capital ships close to Uruguay at that
time told the captains of British and French merchant vessels in Montevideo to
leave at 24 hour intervals in order to keep Graf Spee holed up. However,
Langsdorff was in no hurry to go anywhere. He could not know there were no other
warships anywhere close to Montevideo other than the two light cruisers that Graf
Spee had just evaded, but he seemed to convince himself there were. No doubt
false intelligence fed to the Germans that this was the case did nothing to
dispel such thoughts, and it was rumoured that a large force of capital ships,
including an aircraft carrier, were anchored off the River Plate. In the end,
Langsdorff decided to scuttle his ship rather then have her interned in Uruguay
or have her fight a hopeless battle against what he thought were superior forces.
Langsdorff killed himself shortly after the scuttling.

Superb, [&o]

as always.

Thanks to, as always, well informed forum members I learned that Graf Spee was one of few ships that had radar at the outbreak of the war. Maybe that Graf Spee had radar is worth mentioning?

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yip your right again they were not designed to engage Battleships,and that the newer battleships were faster the French Dunkerque's approx 30 knots compared to the Pocket battleships 28 knots,not to be to disrespectful to the French navy but they did not do much during the war either![;)]

In regard to fighting more than one target,her 6 x 11in main armament could engage the most powerful opponent, while her 8 x 5.9in secondary could keep other targets busy,as at the battle of the river plate that I mentioned earlier proved, she was more than capable of taking on more than one opponent.[;)]


Name: Admiral Graf Spee
Namesake: Maximilian von Spee
Laid down: 1 October 1932
Launched: 30 June 1934
Commissioned: 6 January 1936
Nickname: Graf Spee
Fate: Scuttled 17 December 1939
General characteristics
Class and type: Deutschland class Heavy cruiser
Displacement: 12,100 t standard;
16,200 t full load
Length: 610 ft 3 inch
Beam: 70 ft 10 inch
Draught: 24 ft 3 inch
Propulsion: 3 shafts Eight 9-cylinder double-acting two-stroke MAN diesels
two screws, 52,050 hp
Speed: 28.5 knots (53 km/h)
Range: 8,900 nautical miles at 20 knots (16,500 km at 37 km/h)
Or
19,000 nautical miles at 10 knots (35,000 km at 18.5 km/h)
Complement: 1001-1,150
Electronic warfare
and decoys: Early version of Seetakt radar
Armament:
6 × 280 mm (11 inch)
8 × 150 mm (5.9 inch)
6 × 105 mm (4.1 inch)
8 × 37 mm
10 × 20 mm
8 × 533 mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes
Armour:
turret face: 5.6 inch
belt: 3 inch
torpedo bulkhead: 1.9 inch
deck: 1.6 inch
control tower : 6 inch
Aircraft carried: Two Arado 196 seaplanes, one catapult

Radar is listed in this Graf Spee description I listed earlier.If I have one critisim of Warspite1 writeup it is this,I feel that this description lists far more detail about Admiral Graf Spee than his,sorry Robert.[;)]

[composer99]

These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.

I believe you mean "North Atlantic, South Atlantic, and Indian Oceans"?

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: composer99

These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.

I believe you mean "North Atlantic, South Atlantic, and Indian Oceans"?

I believe the North,South and Indian Oceans you are refering to comes from Warspite1 writeup [:-]

I had nothing to do with it so I'm afraid my plea is not guilty me lord [:D]

Also in my defence I'm entering a special plea of insanity, caused by playing to many Matrix games, resulting in lack of sleep

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: composer99

These hunting groups initially consisted of four aircraft
carriers, three battlecruisers and thirteen cruisers that were spreadout to cover
the vast expanses of the North, South and Indian Oceans. It was like looking for
needle in a haystack.

I believe you mean "North Atlantic, South Atlantic, and Indian Oceans"?

Warspite1

Composer 99 you are quite right - master file duly amended - many thanks [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yip your right again they were not designed to engage Battleships,and that the newer battleships were faster the French Dunkerque's approx 30 knots compared to the Pocket battleships 28 knots,not to be to disrespectful to the French navy but they did not do much during the war either![;)]

In regard to fighting more than one target,her 6 x 11in main armament could engage the most powerful opponent, while her 8 x 5.9in secondary could keep other targets busy,as at the battle of the river plate that I mentioned earlier proved, she was more than capable of taking on more than one opponent.[;)]


Name: Admiral Graf Spee
Namesake: Maximilian von Spee
Laid down: 1 October 1932
Launched: 30 June 1934
Commissioned: 6 January 1936
Nickname: Graf Spee
Fate: Scuttled 17 December 1939
General characteristics
Class and type: Deutschland class Heavy cruiser
Displacement: 12,100 t standard;
16,200 t full load
Length: 610 ft 3 inch
Beam: 70 ft 10 inch
Draught: 24 ft 3 inch
Propulsion: 3 shafts Eight 9-cylinder double-acting two-stroke MAN diesels
two screws, 52,050 hp
Speed: 28.5 knots (53 km/h)
Range: 8,900 nautical miles at 20 knots (16,500 km at 37 km/h)
Or
19,000 nautical miles at 10 knots (35,000 km at 18.5 km/h)
Complement: 1001-1,150
Electronic warfare
and decoys: Early version of Seetakt radar
Armament:
6 × 280 mm (11 inch)
8 × 150 mm (5.9 inch)
6 × 105 mm (4.1 inch)
8 × 37 mm
10 × 20 mm
8 × 533 mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes
Armour:
turret face: 5.6 inch
belt: 3 inch
torpedo bulkhead: 1.9 inch
deck: 1.6 inch
control tower : 6 inch
Aircraft carried: Two Arado 196 seaplanes, one catapult

Radar is listed in this Graf Spee description I listed earlier.If I have one critisim of Warspite1 writeup it is this,I feel that this description lists far more detail about Admiral Graf Spee than his,sorry Robert.[;)]

Warspite1

HFJ

I would answer as follows:

- There simply isn`t the room to give a full technical download. Because I have tried to standardise the type of info given, the write-ups would be too long for many ships if I did this. The longest is just short of three sides of A4 in a txt file. The modest amount of technical detail provided was agreed at the outset and I have more or less stuck to this (with the addition of also giving the secondary armament).

- Having said that, radar perhaps is worthy of inclusion - and Patrice has previously mentioned range. Given the amount to be done I will not make this a priority - but will look to expand certain features in the opening paragraphs (in selected cases) and if possible, add range to the technical detail at the start.

Thanks for the feedback [:)]

[warspite1]

Okay, here`s my first crack at a Soviet ASW.

[4499 ASW Escort - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Name: Surovyi
.B Engine(s) output: 54,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 36 knots
.B Main armament: 4 x 5.1-inch (130mm), 2 x 3-inch (76.2mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 2,404 tons
.B Thickest armour: Not Applicable
.P These counters do not represent an individual ship or a specific group of
ships. Instead they represent a variable number of flotilla leaders, destroyers
and other escort vessels that provided anti-submarine warfare (ASW) protection to
convoys. In addiiton, these ships often provided anti-aircraft (AA) capability to
a greater or lesser extent too.
.P Naval warfare in the Baltic Sea was limited - certainly from 1941-1943, due to
the large losses suffered by the Soviet Baltic Fleet in the early months of
Barbarossa; the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941. Many of the few
operations that were carried out, were evacuation or naval gunfire support
missions that provided assistance to the retreating Red Army. The Baltic Fleet
was saved from complete annihilation only by the failure of the German Army to
starve Leningrad into submission.
.P This counter looks at one of the Soviet destroyer classes and looks at the
calamitous evacuation of Tallinn, Estonia at the end of August 1941.
.P The nineteen-strong Storozhevoi-class destroyers were built for the Soviet
Navy from 1938. They were improved versions of the Gnevnyi-class, with the same
armament packed onto a stronger hull. These ships were more powerful and were
more seaworthy than their predecessors.
.P Two flotillas were provided to the Baltic Fleet and one to the Black Sea
Fleet. Half of those completed were lost during the Second World War.
.P When the Germans launched Barbarossa, Army Group North was tasked with
capturing the Baltic states as part of its march north and east towards the
Soviet Union`s second city; Leningrad. By late August, the German were about to
take Estonia and its capital city; Tallinn.
.P When it was realised that Tallinn could not be held, the Soviet authorities
ordered the evacuation of the city and all remaining troops and naval forces.
The order to evacuate was made on the 26th August and Vice-Admiral Tributs was
tasked with carrying out the operation, for which he called upon every available
ship. Over two hundred ships took part in the operation, made necessary by the
fact that the German Army had cut off their overland escape route.
.P However, the Germans had anticipated the Soviet move and had laid a number of
large minefields in the Gulf of Finland. In addition the Luftwaffe used their air
superiority to harass the Soviets as they loaded the ships.
.P The evacuation itself began shortly before midday on the 28th and involved
seven separate groups leaving Tallinn, with three groups of warships escorting
four convoys. The main group of escorts contained the cruiser Kirov, Tributs`
Flagship, the destroyers Gordyi, Smetlivyi and the elderly Jakov Sverdlov, an
ice-breaker and four submarines. Tributs left Tallinn at 1452hrs. Before that,
the first convoy, containing thirty-two ships, including the Storozhevoi-class
destroyers, Surovyi and Svirepyi, under the command of Captain Bogdanov had left
at 1118hrs. The second convoy, commanded by Captain Antonov, departed just over
two hours later. This convoy contained twenty-seven ships led by the sloop
Moskva. Just before 1400hrs, the third convoy left, commanded by Captain Yanson,
again with a sloop at the head of a twenty-two strong fleet. The fourth, much
smaller convoy, left shortly afterwards, under Captain Gikhorovtsev in the patrol
boat Razvedchik.
.P The evacuation turned into a nightmare for the Soviets. Before the Soviet
ships had even reached the minefields they were attacked by the Luftwaffe, losing
three transports and an ice-breaker.
.P The Germans call this episode the Battle of the Juminda minefield; and with
good reason. The Juminda peninsular is about thirty miles east of Tallinn. The
Germans had laid a large minefield off the peninsular and into this sailed the
unsuspecting Soviet ships. During the terrible night of the 28th /29th August,
the Soviets lost five destroyers, three patrol ships, three minesweepers, three
submarines, twelve transports and four smaller vessels. Many other ships were
damaged but were able to continue.
.P Their misery did not end there however. The warships had been ordered to sail
onto Kronstadt and during the 29th, the Luftwaffe attacked and sank two more
transports and a tanker. A further three transports were so badly damaged that
they had to be beached.
.P The operation came at a high cost and it is believed that over 14,000 military
and civilian personnel and around fifty ships of all types were lost.

[warspite1]

Post 2/3 - a Soviet Amphibious Counter

[4501 Amphibious - by Robert Jenkins]
.P World in Flames uses two main types of naval transport counter: Transport
(TRS) and Amphibious (AMPH). The use of these counters depends to an extent on
what optional rules are being used. However, as a general rule, TRS represent
the types of ship that were used to transport men and material from one friendly
port to another, while AMPH represent the specialised shipping that could land
men and material on a hostile shore.
.P In the Second World War the Soviet Navy had no specialised amphibious landing
vessels; and certainly nothing like those developed by the Americans and British.
Remarkably however, this did not stop them from undertaking numerous amphibious
operations against the Axis invaders, and for these, as resourceful as ever, they
employed whatever craft were available.
.P One of the first such amphibious landings was carried out on the 22nd
September 1941 near the besieged port of Odessa on the Black Sea. The city had
been under siege since the 8th August and the Soviets sought to ease the pressure
on the defenders by landing behind the Romanian 13th and 15th Infantry Divisions.
.P The men designated for the landing were from the 3rd Naval Rifle Regiment. The
plan called for two Soviet divisions in Odessa to attack the Romanians, and so
assist the attack on the Romanian artillery batteries by the 3rd Naval Rifle
Regiment. These guns were giving the defenders in Odessa much trouble.
.P The cruisers Kraznyi Krym and Kraznyi Kavkaz were used to transport the three
battalions of naval troops which were embarked at Sevastopol. The cruisers were
escorted by three destroyers and sailed for a rendezvous with the the landing
barges that had come from Odessa and that would take the troops from the cruisers
to their landing area.
.P The landing took place without incident near the town of Grigorevka, east of
Odessa in the early hours of the morning of the 22nd September. Almost two
thousand troops were disembarked from their landing barges. The naval forces were
on hand to bombard the Romanian positions in support of the attack, which were
completely successful in neutralising the Romanian gun batteries at Fontanka and
Dofinovka.
.P The attack, whilst limited in its aims, was a fine example of the courage and
resourcefulness of the Soviet armed forces. The attack had little time for
planning, yet required a high degree of co-ordination, particularly between the
naval and army commanders.

[warspite1]

Post 3/3 a Soviet transport counter

[4506 Transport - by Robert Jenkins]
.P World in Flames uses two main types of naval transport counter: Transport
(TRS) and Amphibious (AMPH). The use of these counters depends to an extent on
what optional rules are being used. However, as a general rule, TRS represent
the types of ship that were used to transport men and material from one friendly
port to another, while AMPH represent the specialised shipping that could land
men and material on a hostile shore.
.P TRS not only include troop ships but also other vessels that kept the troops
fighting overseas supplied. These vessels include tankers, munitions ships and
other cargo carrying vessels.
.P In World War II, ships were requisitioned by the Soviet authorities for use in
a variety of ways, from troop transports to hospital ships. These write-ups
outline a few of the these vessels that were so vital to ensuring a successful
outcome to the Second World War.
.P Researching the transport vessels of the Soviet Union has not been easy and as
a result there are no technical or historical details available for the merchant
ships featured in this write-up. However, this story is told to give an example
of the operations carried out by Soviet merchant seamen, pressed into service
with the military during the Second World War.
.P Following the attack on the Soviet Union in June 1941, the advance of Army
Group South was delayed due to the stubborn resistance of the Red Army around the
Black Sea port of Odessa.
.P Taking the port was initially the responsibility of the Romanian 4th Army,
although as the defenders resistance turned from stubborn to outright heroic, the
German 11th Army were brought in to try and break the defenders. Even so, the
siege of the city lasted from the 8th August until the 16th October 1941, and
even when it did come to an end, the Soviet Navy had been able to evacuate many
thousands of troops that were able to bolster defences elsewhere rather than fall
into German hands.
.P During the siege, the Soviet Baltic Fleet were used to provide naval gunfire
support to the defenders and to bring in reinforcements. One such reinforcement
operation took place between the 16th and 21st September when the cruisers
Kraznyi Krym, Comintern and Chervona Ukraina and seven destroyers were used to
escort transports, including the Abkhaziya, Dnepr and Gruziya to Odessa. This
operation involved bringing troops of the 157th Rifle Division to Odessa which
were badly needed to replace earlier losses.
.P However, despite these monumental efforts in the face of the Luftwaffe, the
Soviets hold on Odessa was weakened to the point where evacuation was the most
sensible course of action. The evacuation began on the 3rd October, when the
157th Rifle Division was returned to Sevastopol. This first part of the pull-out
plan involved transports leaving Odessa over a three day period, escorted by the
Kraznyi Krym, Chervona Ukraina, Kraznyi Kavkaz and five destroyers.
.P On the 8th and 9th October, further transports left the port escorted by the
Comintern and escorting destroyers. The main evacuation operation then took place
on the 15th/16th October. In stark contrast to the evacuation of Tallinn (see ASW
Counter 4499) the operation went very smoothly as the Luftwaffe were very slow to
react. Chervona Ukraina, Kraznyi Kavkaz, four destroyers and a number of smaller
craft were used to escort the transports. Only one merchant vessel, Bolshevik,
was sunk. It had been a Herculean effort that succeeded in evacuating around
40,000 troops from Odessa.

[warspite1]

And here it is, the one you`ve all been waiting for - yes folks it`s the Belgian Navy

[4945 Artevelde - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 21,700 hp
.B Top speed: 28.5 knots
.B Main armament: 4 x 4.1-inch (105mm). 2 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 2,270 tons
.B Thickest Armour: Not applicable
.P This is strictly speaking a World In Flames "what if" counter, as the
Belgian Navy had actually been disbanded in 1927. The ships that remained in the
civilian manned coastal defence force were insufficient to make up a World In
Flames counter.
.P At the outbreak of the Second World War, the Belgians had the grand total of
one ex-Royal Navy sloop, named Zinnia and two torpedo boats, named Wielingen and
West Diep. As said, these three vessels were manned by civilians and acted as a
coastal defence force.
.P The name on this counter, Artevelde, refers to a ship that was still
incomplete at the time of the Belgian surrender in May 1940. She was intended to
replace the ageing Zinnia and would have acted as a fishery protection vessel
that doubled as the Royal Yacht! Instead, Artevelde was completed by the Germans to
a different specification and renamed Lorelei; she was to survive the war.
.P When war loomed, a naval corps was built up and this small group took part in
the evacuation of Dunkirk and for a short time until the French surrender,
took part in operations with the French Navy.
.P A handful of Belgians bravely made the journey to the UK and while some Belgians
served within the Royal Navy, the majority became part of the Belgian Section of the
Royal Navy, established in September 1940. This force was provided with two corvettes,
Buttercup and Godetia, a squadron of minesweepers, and three patrol boats, named
Phrontis, Electra and Kernot.
.P The two corvettes were deployed in the Battle of the Atlantic and in June 1944 took
part in Operation Neptune; the naval component of the D-Day landings.
.P After the liberation of Belgium the minsweeping squadron was sent to Belgium to
clear coastal waters of enemy mines.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...despite these monumental efforts in the face of the Luftwaffe, the
Soviets hold on Odessa was weakened...

It should be "the Soviet's hold on Odessa" or "the Soviet hold on Odessa"

Cheers, Neilster