War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[MAurelius]

maybe you need to change sides and play the Japanese a bit - usually people stick with the game longer if they play the Allied side - knowing that final victory is most likely and all that [:D]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My last three games:

1. Vs. Q-Ball - ends in January 1943 when Q-Ball departs for WitE land.
2. Vs. Chez - ends in January 1943 (but Chez was very courteous at all times; that game needed to end right there).
3. Vs. PzH - probably going to end in June 1942.

The last time I got further than January '43 was in my game with Miller. I'd have to look it up, but that ended either 2+ or 3+ years ago. (I want to add, as I often do, that Miller is the optimum opponent if you wish to go deep into a game.)

I'm discouraged with this game. Steve asked for a turn late Monday morning. I sent it about two hours later. I haven't heard anything back. No turn. No message saying "Nothing's coming." Just total silence.

Dan, you should have accepted my offer....
Think about it....now you could be slapping my italian penguin all over the place[:D]


Jokes apart....i'm sorry for your game Dan...i know how much time and efforts you devote to a pbem match and i defently feel your pain....

[Canoerebel]

6/9/42 to 6/11/42

Game Status I: Steve and I exchanged emails concerning the status of the game. I invited him to end it. I encouraged him to end it. He declined. Then I had to decide whether I wanted to continue or, instead, to end it and start a new game. Ultimately, I decided even if we ended the game, I wouldn't begina new one any time soon, so might as well continue this one, even if we only play very slowly and erratically. So, we will resume hostitlities.

Game Status Part II: Based upon Steve's repeated comments as confirmed by what I'm seeing on the map, he has truly transitioned to the defensive. This boggles my mind. He is an elite fighter who had adroitly danced himself into a position to try to close with a knockout punch. I was on the defensive, maneuvering carefully out of respect for my opponent's reputation. Both sides have done pretty well. Neither side has suffered any crippling losses. But Steve apparently has no intention of going for the knockout punch. I think very aggressive players like Steve have a hard time when the initiative changes. But, dang it, he shouldn't have stopped in April, right when he had positioned himself to really bring the pressure to bear.

North America: Allied fighters over Victoria get the best of a big Zero sweep. Steve will have to stop these or bring in Tojos. Allied troops are prepping for several enemy bases in expectation of some offensive manuevers later in the year.

CenPac: The KB retired to the northwest. I expect it to return at some point to finish off stricken BB Oklahoma. Nothing I can do to stop that, but it suits me to have the KB committed there, should Steve follow that course of action.

SoPac: The late aborted operation on Tarawa has resulted in very strong Allied positions at Suva, Luganville and Noumea. This is probably a much better return for the money. Noumea is all but untouchable now (1100 AV). Suva and Luganville would require very big commitments by Japan.

SWPac: Still waiting to see if Steve moves further into Oz.

India: Nothing major will happen near term. The Allies are beginning to draw down the Socatra garrison. The troops will move forward to Colombo. I had vacated Ceylon several months ago, but now it looks like the Allies can hold the base.

China: I still think the Japanese are building for an eventual offensive along the Changsha/Kweilin MLR. The Chinese are moving some troops from the far northwest (Lanchow) sector back towards Chungking to serve as a reserve. It's slow going, but Japan has taken alot of time.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

6/9/42 to 6/11/42

Game Status I: Steve and I exchanged emails concerning the status of the game. I invited him to end it. I encouraged him to end it. He declined. Then I had to decide whether I wanted to continue or, instead, to end it and start a new game. Ultimately, I decided even if we ended the game, I wouldn't begina new one any time soon, so might as well continue this one, even if we only play very slowly and erratically. So, we will resume hostitlities.

Game Status Part II: Based upon Steve's repeated comments as confirmed by what I'm seeing on the map, he has truly transitioned to the defensive. This boggles my mind.

Interesting. But if you combine I and II you now have permission to go on the offensive. You could test II by getting up another Marshalls/Gilberts op and going through with it in the next six months.

[veji1]

I have to express admiration for your dedication to the game but I must also say that your playing style might play a role in your opponents diminishing motivation. This is not a criticism, after all if the opponent gets discouraged it is his fault and abandoning the game is like admitting defeat. nevertheless your very very methodic and patient style, leaving no room for mistakes and exposing no asset leaves japanese players grasping air and eventually going nowhere. There discouragement is a way of admitting defeat (good on you) but also boredom against your style. I an way they might get the feeling they are playing a super duper logical AI, without the unpredictability and psy ops of a human opponent !

[Canoerebel]

Veji, I've considered that. Like you, I've dismissed it from consideration.

The Allied player should not have to tailor his strategy and style of play to the Japanese player's desires and expectations. The Japanese player has the initiative early on and, if alert, crafty and aggressive, can make the Allied player pay for being too defensive.

I am not always "laid back" (Exhibit A: my recent game vs. Chez). In this match, I chose to be due to a serious threat of enemy auto victory. I really thought PzH was a candidate to aim for - and perhaps achieve - AV. I felt more comfortable trading real estate for time, while not exposing major assets, and this proved to be a good strategy. I did, however, establish some "line in the sand" outposts - Prince Rupert, Coal Habor, Cocos Island, Port Blair, Diego Garcia and Socatra. Steve chose to attack only one of these - and that one was the "least protected" of the bunch and furthest forward. So, Steve had an opportunity to prove his aggressiveness, but chose not to.

So, which of us was actually the least aggressive? I think that's up for debate.

[JeffroK]

Far from blaming CR I think this is part of PJH plan.
If PJH is bored it would be because he expected CR to offer his forces up for destruction, who is that silly?
CR gets bagged for running and gets bagged for creating a strongpoint and fighting, ever thought his opponents are to blame?

As PJH might be a disciple of Nemo, I believe he thinks that the JFB can make an almost impregnable defence line, he has covered one usually line of approach by taking the Aleutians, what was a short jump across the Bering St is now a major campaign.

Given the advantages of Scen2 , which I believe are mostly land and air, it is possible to build a strong line of bases with a mobile KB supporting/defending.

the ball is now in CR's court, its going to be a very interesting campaign to get to Japan.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: veji1

nevertheless your very very methodic and patient style, leaving no room for mistakes and exposing no asset leaves japanese players grasping air and eventually going nowhere. There discouragement is a way of admitting defeat (good on you) but also boredom against your style. I an way they might get the feeling they are playing a super duper logical AI, without the unpredictability and psy ops of a human opponent !

Is CR, or any other allied player for that matter required to make mistakes in order for the Jap player to have "fun"? Throw away ships and planes into certain defeat to make sure the Jap player stays in the game? Will the Jap player return the favour in 43-45 then?

It might be true for a few Jap players but anyone with even the smallest amount of experience knows the how strapped the allies are. PjH have a huge amount of experience and to think he would start doing the vanishing act because CR is playing well..Nah!

I think JeffK are right here.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Game Status Part II: Based upon Steve's repeated comments as confirmed by what I'm seeing on the map, he has truly transitioned to the defensive. This boggles my mind. He is an elite fighter who had adroitly danced himself into a position to try to close with a knockout punch. I was on the defensive, maneuvering carefully out of respect for my opponent's reputation. Both sides have done pretty well. Neither side has suffered any crippling losses. But Steve apparently has no intention of going for the knockout punch. I think very aggressive players like Steve have a hard time when the initiative changes. But, dang it, he shouldn't have stopped in April, right when he had positioned himself to really bring the pressure to bear.

You place great importance on an aggressive Japanese offensive. I know you've been vocal about wanting a player to push you to the AV limit. IMHO a push for auto-victory is a detriment to a successful Japanese campaign. To get close you must over-extend, push resources and the economy to the limit, and leave little prepared behind the lines for the inevitable Allied counter. It may be fun, but if you don't reach the goal by the end of 42 you're done.

A very experienced Japanese player may want to use your expectation of a push for auto-victory by mounting aggressive looking but not incredibly dangerous offensives in the first half of 42 to lure you into a defensive posture. If Nemo's goal is to get inside and mess up his opponents' OODA loop, and PH is a player of similar style, maybe preparing all along to pull back and defend aggressively while showing offensive potential is his way of achieving this goal.

In the above statement you say his seemingly defensive intentions 'boggle my mind.' Maybe the goal is to do just that and to explore a different method for holding the Allied side back. PzB comes to mind. Or maybe he is just out of steam.

Either way, the point is that you should stop being careful. You've avoided auto-victory now. You're getting a bunch of nice toys. Go for it.

[adsoul64]

ORIGINAL: veji1

I have to express admiration for your dedication to the game but I must also say that your playing style might play a role in your opponents diminishing motivation. This is not a criticism, after all if the opponent gets discouraged it is his fault and abandoning the game is like admitting defeat. nevertheless your very very methodic and patient style, leaving no room for mistakes and exposing no asset leaves japanese players grasping air and eventually going nowhere. There discouragement is a way of admitting defeat (good on you) but also boredom against your style. I an way they might get the feeling they are playing a super duper logical AI, without the unpredictability and psy ops of a human opponent !

I don't think that an expert and skilled player like PJH could get fun out of a game against an Allied player who squanders his assets for nothing. PJH knows very well that CR could only be on strategical defensive for the very first months. As Japanese player you could and should only expand as faster and as far as you can, playing havoc and destruction. If PJH didn't this is because CR has kept cool head, he came out off blocks with a brilliant strategy that is pursued relentlessly, and he 's been able to second-guess his opponent moves. I just think we could stop thinking Nemo and Alfred are first class players and CR is just a tiny step behind because IMHO is just in the same class than the two "masters" [&o]

[Canoerebel]

Lots of good comments here.  Obvert, in particular, may have hit it on the head.  Some comments were particularly kind and generous, which is much appreciated.  However, my hope is that Bullwinkle won't check my thread anytime soon.  If he does, his sense of honesty and fair play will do battle with his innate courtesy.  Ultimately, he will weigh in on my ability compared to the abilities of certain other folks, and I will be reduced to a quivering bowl of pudding.
 
I'm not going to change my style of play.  It's June '42.  The Allies are doing fine and will continue the gathering of the storm, meanwhile looking for opportunities to strike on advantageous terms.  But if Steve is truly on the defensive and as adept as we all think he is, I'm not going to stick my nose out recklessly at this early date in the game.  No need to.  The Allies are in great shape going forward (unless he's been pulling a big maskirovka and is about to unleash a typhoon of epic proportions, which I doubt). 

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Lots of good comments here.  Obvert, in particular, may have hit it on the head.  Some comments were particularly kind and generous, which is much appreciated.  However, my hope is that Bullwinkle won't check my thread anytime soon.  If he does, his sense of honesty and fair play will do battle with his innate courtesy.  Ultimately, he will weigh in on my ability compared to the abilities of certain other folks, and I will be reduced to a quivering bowl of pudding.

I'm not going to change my style of play.  It's June '42.  The Allies are doing fine and will continue the gathering of the storm, meanwhile looking for opportunities to strike on advantageous terms.  But if Steve is truly on the defensive and as adept as we all think he is, I'm not going to stick my nose out recklessly at this early date in the game.  No need to.  The Allies are in great shape going forward (unless he's been pulling a big maskirovka and is about to unleash a typhoon of epic proportions, which I doubt). 

Ummmm . . . pudding.

Like I said, dessert.[;)]

I don't know what he's doing; his AAR has been dead for months now. But I have come to know what it's like to look forward to a turn, or even a replay movie. Mike so far has flipped turns with abandon, almost too fast for me to keep up with and do the AAR. Of course, he's having fun right now. When it's my turn we'll see. [;)]

If this game is to continue you need to find a way for it to be a non-slog for you. Your style is your style. I'm beginning to realize that a style is needed in PBEM. But maybe there's a way to combine your style with having fun too. When I posted above I was only suggesting (orthogonally perhaps) that one way to have fun here is to try the historical route, which I don't think you ever have done. You've done India, you've done DEI island jumping, you've done left-hooks to land in mainland China, you've done western Sumatra landings, you've done Fortress P. Probably other avenues I'm forgetting. What we almost never see in AARed games is the historical trans-Pacific route: go for the Marianas, take them by main force, and bomb away, with the Mac-led DEI to PI campaign as an ultimate sideshow which nonetheless bleeds Japan of resources.

I've attacked the Marianas in AI games and it's a tough nut to crack. It takes a lot of prep and massive force. I mean REALLY massive, like 1000+ ships massive. Obviously you aren't ready for that for 1.5 to 2 years. But it could be a goal. I personnally wouldn't tackle the Marshals/Gilberts without at least some dedicated landing ships. Speed is needed. The medium airfields at places like Wotje can chew you up. But it's an interesting puzzle once you have the hardware.

BTW, pudding is fine, but pie is better. Girl of the Prairie just made me the fourth apple pie of the season, with apples grown a mile from our house. Soon it will be mincemeat season. Good eatin'.

[Canoerebel]

CenPac strategy is certainly on the table.

One thing that I think I'm about to prove - my assertion early on that Steve wouldn't be able to implement an effective bombing campaign from Alliford Bay; i.e., that he really needed Coal Harbor. If he has shut down operations in NoPac, then all of this was alot of noise for little gain. Nayayers may claim that it served as an effective diversion, but I disagree. While trying to meet the threat, I was still sending LCU and aircraft to Capetown and most of my carriers were stationed in the IO.

The Allies were also able to establish important bases forward - especially Cocos and Diego. These will pose a real threat to Steve. With them in Allied hands, he doesn't have "foward listening posts" that could give warning of a move on Java, Sumatra or Timor. He'll always have to guard against a big invasion from the south. In effect, Cocos Island strongly held by the Allies is nearly as big a threat as Adak and Attu built large.

The Allies are in good shape...except China, where I'm not sure whether Steve has big plans or is transitioning to the defensive.

[princep01]

CR, I don't think your rope-a-dope style of play had anything to do with the slowdown in the game.  I take it from what you previously said that PzH has run into some real world family problems of a quite serious nature.  I accept that at face value and feel badly for him rather than think badly toward him.  The death of a close family member is always a life altering event.   Games get pushed to the backburner overnight.  While I hope the game continues and regains its footing in full, I certainly think I understand what is happening.
 
As to the game, I don't agree with you that the Northern Pacific effort was for little gain.  Just looking at it from a VP point of view, it had promise, when combined with the fall of China and conquest of at least part of Oz, India or the Hawaiin Islands, plus the usual Allied losses in Singers, PI and DEI to perhaps achieve the ellusive Auto Victory I think he was playing for.  Your rope-a-dope stat took away a major element of his stat by refusing the point value of ship losses and some LCU losses.  Your timely occupation in force of New Caledonia, Fiji and Espiritu Santo as denied him many terrain points that were his early had he made the move.  That was a wise investment on your part and far better than the initial alternative of grabbing Tarawa.
 
Anyway, I'm glad to see the contest continuing and engendering new reader commentary.  Tally-Oh, the Japanese.
 
 

[Wirraway_Ace]

I offer the following opinion with some trepidation. I feel the whole basis of the game CR was looking for was unrealistic. Even in Scenario 2, there is no hidden Japanese path to victory. An experienced and reasonably skilled Allied opponent can trade space for time while foiling the very slender options for Japanese autovictory. With unity of command and effort, and unconstrained by political realities of the period, the Allies can concentrate in any theater, while ignoring others, all the while setting the conditions for an overwhelming counter-attack. The only true enemy is impatience. I enjoy playing the Allies for the madness that is the first couple of weeks, then the operational planning it takes to conduct the island-hopping campaign. But there are simply too many routes to military success in the game for the Allies without the real world politics. Burma, China, Sumatra, Java, Timor, NORPAC in addition to the historical SWPAC and CENPAC. Now playing as Japan…you never sleep restfully again.
Mike

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

I offer the following opinion with some trepidation. I feel the whole basis of the game CR was looking for was unrealistic. Even in Scenario 2, there is no hidden Japanese path to victory. An experienced and reasonably skilled Allied opponent can trade space for time while foiling the very slender options for Japanese autovictory. With unity of command and effort, and unconstrained by political realities of the period, the Allies can concentrate in any theater, while ignoring others, all the while setting the conditions for an overwhelming counter-attack. The only true enemy is impatience. I enjoy playing the Allies for the madness that is the first couple of weeks, then the operational planning it takes to conduct the island-hopping campaign. But there are simply too many routes to military success in the game for the Allies without the real world politics. Burma, China, Sumatra, Java, Timor, NORPAC in addition to the historical SWPAC and CENPAC. Now playing as Japan…you never sleep restfully again.
Mike

The Allies do have many possible approaches but they do NOT have inside lines of communication to quickly concentrate. They have to move massive amounts of shipping and materiel close to their chosen avenue, yet keep the enemy in the dark about where exactly the blow will fall. This often involves minor buildups elsewhere and other maskarovka to keep the true buildup undetected. The Allies also have some limited windows for attack in the first couple of years because their ships constantly disappear for upgrades.
Bottom line - it isn't so easy pulling off the return to Tokyo. CR has shown in several AARs that he knows how to make it happen! [&o]

[Encircled]

Maybe he's hoping for an PzB type "perfect" defence?

[Canoerebel]

1) I don't think PzH had his dreams set on playing a strong defense. He is very aggressive. For some reason, he decided to stop his attack long before he should have/had to. At least, I think so. As with most aggressive players, he may not enjoy playing a drawn-out defensive game. I think that's the reason for his lack of interest in the game (not Real Life matters, though that may have contributed at an earlier point). Steve probably decided he didn't have a good shot at auto victory, so that he felt he had to go on the defensive. I think he had a shot, but I'm not positive.

2) I continue to believe that an experienced, gifted and aggressive IJ player in Scenario Two has a strong shot at auto victory. I can think of at least two players who, IMO, would have a very high probability of scoring an auto vic against me. That may be because of my style of play and the flaws included therein. The thing is, an IJ player would probably have to sacrifice long term health (IE, his prospects for a good defense should auto-vic fail so that the game went on into '44 and thereafter) in order to have a strong shot at it. Under the right conditions - IJ player with that mentality against an Allied player of my ability and typical "soft defense" strategy - auto vic is a distinct possibility. I think PzH had set things up very well to test out this theory, but decided to call it off. I wish he had gone for it.

[Encircled]

As do we!

[BBfanboy]

From what you have said, it seems that if he had taken Coal Harbour before starting up his India foray PzJH may have come pretty close. Between the points for the base, isolation and seizing of Prince Rupert, strat bombing and naval clashes in the Vancouver Islan area there would be a lot of possibilites there.
IRL many campaigns fizzled just when they were getting close to their ultimate goal because the leaders of the offense lost confidence or were not willing to take the casualties involved in a final push.