THE THREAD!!!

[Mike Solli]

Forget it....

[Grollub]

I guess Andres picture is coming from this place; http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

It shows that the homicide/murder rate for 2008 is nowhere in the vicinity of the "10x/100X" that you spoke of Leo, but still significantly higher.

[Grollub]

Oops, turn in! First one for 1,5 weeks as my opponent has been away on an exercise.

Laters. [8D]

[Mike Solli]

Lets try this again.

This is me when I have free time (right now) and no turn in the inbox:

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Grollub

I guess Andres picture is coming from this place; http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

It shows that the homicide/murder rate for 2008 is nowhere in the vicinity of the "10x/100X" that you spoke of Leo, but still significantly higher.

True... true... but the USA is so big that statistics can be deceiving... if you look at USA as a whole the rate is 5x than Western Europe... but if you take a look at specific states in USA (that are essentially the size of European country) the rates can rise to 10-50x than in Western Europe... [:(]

Just look at the statistics for separate USA states in the WikiPedia link I gave above... [:(]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Admiral Mitscher]

I'm excitedly waiting for the 7th of December turn to come back, don't know why; as I'm the Allied player and I'm going to get pounded. [&:]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Generally speaking the statistics for USA are not that bad (because of large number of inhabitants) and they show about 4-5x more than Europe (for murders) but the sheer number is still staggering... and if you add other serious crimes the numbers get even worse...

Leo "Apollo11"

Yes. Violent crime has-believe it or not-been going down substantially in the US over the last 15 years. It peaked statistically in the early to mid 1990s. Most categories of crime, particularly violent crime, have been going down since then.

You're right-it's still an issue when "rich" European countries are used as comparatives. However, it's also overblown by many (most?) Europeans too that think of the US as a veritable shooting gallery with cowboys and Al Capone's gangsters.

Lots of theories as to why that's happening (drop in violent crime since mid-1990s) -some interesting and some controversial. Very few of which relate to responsible (and legal) gun ownership.

Interesting point for discussion though: Even though our gun-related suicide rates are about 5x that of Europeans' (greater access to firearms as a means of suicide), overall European suicide rates are 30%+ greater than that of Americans or Canadians. Moldova's rate is 2.5x that of the United States. Croatia's is 30% greater. That's quite the curious epidemic.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

I think that we all fundamentally agree that guns in hands of responsible owners are not problem!

I also think that it is very important to understand that USA is new country where people were always free (and citizens have constitutional right to have weapons) - European countries are old and most of them have roots in ancient states. In those medieval days there was feudal system that forbid inhabitants to have weapons (in order to prevent revolts - of course).

This was more-or-less preserved to present day - in most European countries only police and military can be armed (and citizens usually must obtain permits that are not universally available)...


Leo "Apollo1"

[Grollub]

Well said Leo.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
the relative crime rates (especially concerning the more serious ones like homicide) are in magnitude of 10-100x less here in Europe...

I know this is commonly believed by most Europeans, but do you have a source that cites a per capita homicide rate of 1/100th that of the United States in Europe? If so, I've never seen it.

That's the european argument...

Gun ownership has barely anthing to do with criminal rates, except maybe letting them drop.
The reasons for the different murder rates are the societies. We buy freedom with our welfare state, not through the lack of guns. In Switzerland, almost every man owns a fully automatic assault rifle, owning pistols is fairly easy as well. But they have one of the lowest murder rates in the world.

On the other hand, you have Florida. After introducing consealed carry, the rates of severe crimes dropped between 45 and 65% depending on the crime - while the criminals started targeting tourists...

an entertaining video about that from Penn & Teller:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XrNzE39J8E

[Chickenboy]

Nicely said, Leo.

What's surprising to me is how *low* the rate of gun-related homicide is in the US. For a country awash in guns (almost one gun per capita here), we've a low-moderate *rate* associated with it. Access has never been equal to use here, something that is a confounder for many, but does trace itself back to our 'citizen militia' roots.

[Chickenboy]

Hey...a 'citizen militia' UNP. Thanks for leaving that door open, Viking dude. [;)]

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo
I have no idea what justifies these rail prices in San Fernando Valley, CA when in order to get to Camarillo by car all I have to do is hop on the 118 freeway for 40 minutes. There is never any traffic, the scenery is very much enjoyable, the roads are in perfect condition and there are oodles of parking everywhere. I just dont understand it.

Bozo urban planners that think that the Los Angeles basin should emulate the Eastern US / Metro London / Paris in all ways? People that forget that that area was a cropland 50 years ago and won't ever be an urban hub justifying mass transit? People that vote for a 90 billion dollar high speed rail system with its first station in rural central California? [8|]

Well, I dont think that these efforts are entirely baseless. For example, there is a relatively new commuter express bus that runs from North Hollywood to Chatsworth and Woodland Hills that seems like an awesome idea. They took the old, disused land that used to belong to a local rail line which runs parallel to Oxnard Ave./Victory Blvd and built a dedicated bus lane, with synchronized lights. At rush hour these busses basically skip every stoplight. A buddy of mine who lives in Hollywood and works here in Chatsworth takes it to work every day. The ride takes about an hour and costs only a couple of bucks for a one-way trip. This in comparison to a similar or greater time spent in traffic on the 101/405/118 and probably double the cost in gas without even figuring in the wear and tear on the vehicle. That idea I can absolutely get behind.

They also put in parking lots at every station where people can park their cars before hopping on the mass transit and even a biking/jogging track that runs from almost North Hollywood to Woodland Hills. I dont know when you were here last, Andre, but from my recollection of 10 years ago when I moved to NY the traffic in the LA area has gotten much worse! It used to be that the only places you could really count on hitting traffic was the 405 around the Getty Museum/Mulholland Pass area and Downtown. Now pretty much any time I've gotten on the 101 its been a parking lot. These commuter buses and subways make perfect sense in the urban areas. But Chatsworth is pretty much the suburban boonies and the Metrolink line doesnt even go to the city. [8|]

My real complaint is the prices. If these trains cost $2-$5, you bet your chicken farm that people would be using them more often. Why would I drive 40 minutes and spend $10-12 bucks in gas if I could drive to the train station, park my car and enjoy the trip at my ease? Another complaint is that once you get there, there are virtually no other commuter services to get you around the place like there are in "real" metropolitan centers. For example, I could take this thing to Anaheim for $15 one way. But once I get there, I have no real way of getting to either Disneyland or the stadiums. So what's the actual point?

It is easy to get the public transportation competitive by subsidizing it with the taxpayer's money. This way, all have to pay for the convinience of a few.
If you don't, you'll never see the European sceduels, with one bus every few minutes and money to build countless subways, trams etc.

I like the idea though, of having a special line for busses and special toll lines to avoid the traffic. I sat in a traffic jam several times while other cars were passing by at ease on the toll lane.

I like toll roads. Financing the streets through those who actually use them is awesome!

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Nicely said, Leo.

What's surprising to me is how *low* the rate of gun-related homicide is in the US. For a country awash in guns (almost one gun per capita here), we've a low-moderate *rate* associated with it. Access has never been equal to use here, something that is a confounder for many, but does trace itself back to our 'citizen militia' roots.

What I don't like about those statistics is, that they always ignore all those countless cases where guns protected someone. I think I've read about 5.000 or 6.000 cases of use of firearms for self-protection each day in the us.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: USS America
... and over 700 of those miles were on Interstate 95.... [;)]

And some of them were maybe on I-85 down to Montgomery and then I-65 down to the fetid swamps of South Alabama.

Hi, ya Mikey. Been 5 months since I was banned for 3 and they still can't get their poop together. Don't care squat about the JWE account, since I have no intention of talking to the forum. So Symon seems good for here. Besides, SuluSea (Eddie) needs a righteous Caribbean buddy to hang with.

Had a ball with Torsten. I was being an honest host and taking him to where he could get some decent Bavarian beer (Alabama is one of the last little pissy Baptist States, where all booze comes from the annaly constricted wisdom of the Alcohol Beverage Commission, i.e., you can't get Jack that's any good). But luckily, I'm only a half hour from Florida so I can get whatever I want with a teensy bit of effort. Thank God for Interstate highways.

So Torsten starts pulling out these cigars, from the humidor. A lot of them I couldn't smoke, because he had a bunch that he had to try and make pronunciamento on. But he gave me some righteous mild ones (saved the wrappers for tomorrow) that were honest to gosh toothsome. Sweet and Slow and didn't bite and tasted like sweet earth with a hint of leather. Torsten was teaching me a lot about cigar 'tastes', Some of them I could get, but others are for cigars I don't smoke. I'm a light-it, chew-it, talk with my mouth full of it kinda guy. It was a real treat to smoke a cigar with an honest afficianado.

Alright, so I still owe you a dinner on last years Army/Navy game. I pay my debts, so don't be surprised if your half-Yankee ass gets a visit I-85 to Charlotte and then... Not far pal.

So I know NC ain't doing doo-doo in the SEC or BCS, so I won't go there. When I was in college, it was up North and the Bruins were kings. That ws back in the days of Sanderson, Esposito, Bucyk, Cashman, Cheevers, Orr, Doak and Hodge. Then my ex-wife of 22 years was from Detroit and if I wasn't a RedWings fan, I was seriously toast ( I mean, like don't touch me, and roll over), Woof.

So, sup bro? s'happin'in?

JWE

John, thanks for the great time. Glad I could give you something back with the cigars I gave you.

It was an honor finally meeting you!

[Historiker]

Look at those numbers:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/Self- ... -1993.aspx

If I were to become a criminal in the US, I might become a pick-pocketer, start a pyramid sceme or betray people by collecting advance payment for something I'm never going to deliver.
But I defenitly wouldn't start breaking into houses, when in roughly 50% of all households is a gun... [X(][:-]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: USS America
... and over 700 of those miles were on Interstate 95.... [;)]

And some of them were maybe on I-85 down to Montgomery and then I-65 down to the fetid swamps of South Alabama.

Hi, ya Mikey. Been 5 months since I was banned for 3 and they still can't get their poop together. Don't care squat about the JWE account, since I have no intention of talking to the forum. So Symon seems good for here. Besides, SuluSea (Eddie) needs a righteous Caribbean buddy to hang with.

Had a ball with Torsten. I was being an honest host and taking him to where he could get some decent Bavarian beer (Alabama is one of the last little pissy Baptist States, where all booze comes from the annaly constricted wisdom of the Alcohol Beverage Commission, i.e., you can't get Jack that's any good). But luckily, I'm only a half hour from Florida so I can get whatever I want with a teensy bit of effort. Thank God for Interstate highways.

So Torsten starts pulling out these cigars, from the humidor. A lot of them I couldn't smoke, because he had a bunch that he had to try and make pronunciamento on. But he gave me some righteous mild ones (saved the wrappers for tomorrow) that were honest to gosh toothsome. Sweet and Slow and didn't bite and tasted like sweet earth with a hint of leather. Torsten was teaching me a lot about cigar 'tastes', Some of them I could get, but others are for cigars I don't smoke. I'm a light-it, chew-it, talk with my mouth full of it kinda guy. It was a real treat to smoke a cigar with an honest afficianado.

Alright, so I still owe you a dinner on last years Army/Navy game. I pay my debts, so don't be surprised if your half-Yankee ass gets a visit I-85 to Charlotte and then... Not far pal.

So I know NC ain't doing doo-doo in the SEC or BCS, so I won't go there. When I was in college, it was up North and the Bruins were kings. That ws back in the days of Sanderson, Esposito, Bucyk, Cashman, Cheevers, Orr, Doak and Hodge. Then my ex-wife of 22 years was from Detroit and if I wasn't a RedWings fan, I was seriously toast ( I mean, like don't touch me, and roll over), Woof.

So, sup bro? s'happin'in?

JWE

Welcome back, Brother John! [:)]

Shouldn't your username be spelled "Sy'mon"? [:D]

Glad to hear of the your great visit with our German tourist. It's been a fantastic time having him here with us and sharing Thanksgiving with him. For his next visit, we will have to talk him into staying for a longer time.

It will be a pleasure to collect on our wager! Our door is always open, and after Monday, the guest room is available! [8D]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Look at those numbers:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/Self- ... -1993.aspx

If I were to become a criminal in the US, I might become a pick-pocketer, start a pyramid sceme or betray people by collecting advance payment for something I'm never going to deliver.
But I defenitly wouldn't start breaking into houses, when in roughly 50% of all households is a gun... [X(][:-]

What a timely forum topic after our discussion this afternoon! [:D][:D][:D]

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Nicely said, Leo.

What's surprising to me is how *low* the rate of gun-related homicide is in the US. For a country awash in guns (almost one gun per capita here), we've a low-moderate *rate* associated with it. Access has never been equal to use here, something that is a confounder for many, but does trace itself back to our 'citizen militia' roots.

I think this is one of the few issues I agree with Andre on. [:D]

One thing that I dont think has been said yet is that I recall hearing somewhere that the overwhelming majority of gun-related incidents involved household members or friends/acquaintances.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo
One thing that I dont think has been said yet is that I recall hearing somewhere that the overwhelming majority of gun-related incidents involved household members or friends/acquaintances.

Well, that's kind of a no-brainer. The overwhelming majority of homicides of all ilk (not just guns), domestic violence of all sorts and other similar incidents involve family or 'friends / acquaintances'.