MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR)

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Now, if you want to opt for some "gamey" play by the Axis: next DoW impulse you might DoW all neutral minors, who haven't got an army and a resource/factory. This might increase US entry even more.

Hence the suggestion of Liberia (Edit; by the Allies). The Central and South America minors can't be done as they effect VPs. European neutral minors give stuff to the axis. I think that leaves only Liberia.

Yemen and Tibet come into mind. I don't know if there are any more of these obscure nations around, with the unified map...

Good ones! Have the CW DoW them all first and wait and see what happens to entry. That way the axis can't do any of them . Next Impulse Free France can do one or more.

Edit: Actually the Axis will have to not align them so they'll surrender. Japan might think about Yemen depending on what forces are in the neighborhood.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The ground strikes on the USSR are not a surprise to experienced players. It doesn't really matter whether it was 90%, 60%, or 40%. Enough units get stuck in place to make the mobile ones too weak to form a defensive line if they retreat. All the units in the front line get cleaned up easily in 2 or 3 impulses. Any delay in removing them from the map is usually because Germany is move interested in advancing quickly to Kiev et al. The slower and weaker units,plus newly arrived reinforcements, get the task of mopping up.

If the Germans had waited for clear weather, they would have had guaranteed success with 3 of their Stukas and 80% probability with the fourth. What happened to the naval Stuka? It has pretty good TAC as I recall.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
Gamey, sure, but I'm not going to dow minors the Axis can't actually make war against.

And Germany and Italy can fight China??? Get off the moral high ground and get in the trenches here! This is war g@wd@mit! [:)]

To be clear, the Allies need to do it before the axis does. If they find ways to reduce the entry level, they can't allow the axis to drive it back up.

Last I checked, China isn't a minor is it? [;)]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Now, if you want to opt for some "gamey" play by the Axis: next DoW impulse you might DoW all neutral minors, who haven't got an army and a resource/factory. This might increase US entry even more.

Hence the suggestion of Liberia (Edit; by the Allies). The Central and South America minors can't be done as they effect VPs. European neutral minors give stuff to the axis. I think that leaves only Liberia.

Yemen and Tibet come into mind. I don't know if there are any more of these obscure nations around, with the unified map...

Yemen is actually a legit target for Italy, as is Saudi Arabia, so you might see those happening sometime in the near future. [:)]

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The ground strikes on the USSR are not a surprise to experienced players. It doesn't really matter whether it was 90%, 60%, or 40%. Enough units get stuck in place to make the mobile ones too weak to form a defensive line if they retreat. All the units in the front line get cleaned up easily in 2 or 3 impulses. Any delay in removing them from the map is usually because Germany is move interested in advancing quickly to Kiev et al. The slower and weaker units,plus newly arrived reinforcements, get the task of mopping up.

If the Germans had waited for clear weather, they would have had guaranteed success with 3 of their Stukas and 80% probability with the fourth. What happened to the naval Stuka? It has pretty good TAC as I recall.

Ground strike factor is not doubled by Surprise (maybe it was in past versions). Instead they get an extra roll. A 5 Stuka will hit 75% of the time, etc.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
Last I checked, China isn't a minor is it? [;)]

Why is it fighting like one? [&:]

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The ground strikes on the USSR are not a surprise to experienced players. It doesn't really matter whether it was 90%, 60%, or 40%. Enough units get stuck in place to make the mobile ones too weak to form a defensive line if they retreat. All the units in the front line get cleaned up easily in 2 or 3 impulses. Any delay in removing them from the map is usually because Germany is move interested in advancing quickly to Kiev et al. The slower and weaker units,plus newly arrived reinforcements, get the task of mopping up.

If the Germans had waited for clear weather, they would have had guaranteed success with 3 of their Stukas and 80% probability with the fourth. What happened to the naval Stuka? It has pretty good TAC as I recall.

I got the "clear" weather I was looking for . . . in the south. I'm not sure which one is the naval Stuka you're talking about . . . you mean the original NAV? Or maybe it's not in the game yet?

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
Last I checked, China isn't a minor is it? [;)]

Why is it fighting like one? [&:]

Chinese Attack Weakness. (And a bad setup).

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The ground strikes on the USSR are not a surprise to experienced players. It doesn't really matter whether it was 90%, 60%, or 40%. Enough units get stuck in place to make the mobile ones too weak to form a defensive line if they retreat. All the units in the front line get cleaned up easily in 2 or 3 impulses. Any delay in removing them from the map is usually because Germany is move interested in advancing quickly to Kiev et al. The slower and weaker units,plus newly arrived reinforcements, get the task of mopping up.

If the Germans had waited for clear weather, they would have had guaranteed success with 3 of their Stukas and 80% probability with the fourth. What happened to the naval Stuka? It has pretty good TAC as I recall.

I got the "clear" weather I was looking for . . . in the south. I'm not sure which one is the naval Stuka you're talking about . . . you mean the original NAV? Or maybe it's not in the game yet?

There is a 6-range Stuka with 3 A2s factors. It has 4 ground strike factors.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The ground strikes on the USSR are not a surprise to experienced players. It doesn't really matter whether it was 90%, 60%, or 40%. Enough units get stuck in place to make the mobile ones too weak to form a defensive line if they retreat. All the units in the front line get cleaned up easily in 2 or 3 impulses. Any delay in removing them from the map is usually because Germany is move interested in advancing quickly to Kiev et al. The slower and weaker units,plus newly arrived reinforcements, get the task of mopping up.

If the Germans had waited for clear weather, they would have had guaranteed success with 3 of their Stukas and 80% probability with the fourth. What happened to the naval Stuka? It has pretty good TAC as I recall.

I got the "clear" weather I was looking for . . . in the south. I'm not sure which one is the naval Stuka you're talking about . . . you mean the original NAV? Or maybe it's not in the game yet?

There is a 6-range Stuka with 3 A2s factors. It has 4 ground strike factors.

Oh. That one is a 1941 unit, so it hasn't been built yet.

As for Liberia, are you sure you want to turn this fellow over to the Axis at this juncture?

[Centuur]

Now, in answer on those Axis DoW's against China, the Allies should DoW those minors next impulse, removing chits from the USA entry pools (just as the USSR is going to DoW Italy...). The Axis had there chance of doing that last impulse too, and if they are doing gamey things like DoW'ing China with Germany and Italy, you can't simply set back as the Allies and don't try to do gamey things in return.
The Axis should have made those DoW's last turn. They didn't...
So the USSR, France and the CW should all DoW Yemen, Liberia and Tibet in next declaration of war phase removing USA chits (especially the USSR ones can remove 3 USA chits...). The Axis made a mistake last DoW phase by not doing this, so why should you favour them. Give them a piece of their own cake in return...
Now the impulse after that, the USA might be in a better position to DoW Japan or the Euroaxis because of this...

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Now, in answer on those Axis DoW's against China, the Allies should DoW those minors next impulse, removing chits from the USA entry pools (just as the USSR is going to DoW Italy...). The Axis had there chance of doing that last impulse too, and if they are doing gamey things like DoW'ing China with Germany and Italy, you can't simply set back as the Allies and don't try to do gamey things in return.
The Axis should have made those DoW's last turn. They didn't...
So the USSR, France and the CW should all DoW Yemen, Liberia and Tibet in next declaration of war phase removing USA chits (especially the USSR ones can remove 3 USA chits...). The Axis made a mistake last DoW phase by not doing this, so why should you favour them. Give them a piece of their own cake in return...
Now the impulse after that, the USA might be in a better position to DoW Japan or the Euroaxis because of this...

Perfectly good reason the Axis didn't DOW Yemen. Italy has a Division ready to either invade it or support it.

The point for me is that while the DOW of China was "gamey", I didn't DOW the others because there no point to it from a military viewpoint. The DOWs I made were all certain to create the results I wanted, not give a 30% chance of a positive result.

I know you'll disagree with this, but I'm trying to play "within reason". Note that the USA didn't enter the first World War until it was 80% finished already. It then took about a year to get troops onto the front lines, and most of the fatalities were the result of influenza and not battle. So, I see this as "within reason" based on that example. Did the USA DOW random other countries? No.

Sure, this is just an "excuse". If you really want me to DOW Liberia (I think it's a mistake to give that unit to the Germans), I will. I can see Yemen as a legit target (preventative measures), but while many may see this game as a farce already, I'd like to keep it within the bounds of "reason". That, to me, means a Soviet DOW on Italy is legitimate, even if they don't actually enter Iraq.

However, if you want to have the Allies DOW everything that doesn't put them physically at risk, don't forget Crete and Nepal!

[Red Prince]

There were 10 attacks made by the Axis this turn. There are 4 invasions that are automatic due to surprised Notional Units, an invasion of Batavia, an attack near Kunming, and 4 attacks against the USSR.

Three of the attacks against the Soviets deserve special notes:

Kaunas . . . I intentionally moved an INF (white print) so that it ended up disorganized in order to make this attack Automatic.

South of Bessarabia . . . looking at the first of the two images below, you're probably thinking "What the hell is he doing making a 1:1 attack???" Well, look at the second image before you go nuts. That one shows the attack that I'll make first and probably get a 'B' result for it, at 3:1 +4 odds. Move a single unit an extra hex east, and suddenly that 1:1 attack becomes a 5:1 +2 attack. There is method to my madness.



And the results:

Attack on China [89, 131]: Blitz, Roll = 8 = */1B
Attack on USSR [59, 54]: Assault, Roll = 6+2 = 8 = */2S
Attack on USSR {58, 54]: Blitz, Fractional Odds .954 (No), Roll = 9+4 = 13 = */2B (Not Converted, 2 x INF Destroyed, Breakthrough)
Attack on Lvov: Assault, Roll = 9 = */2S
Attack on Kaunas: Assault, Roll = Automatic
Attack on Tarakan: Assault, Roll = Automatic
Attack on Balikpapan: Assault, Roll = Automatic
Attack on Rabaul: Assault, Roll = Automatic
Attack on Trincomalee: Assault, Roll = Automatic
Attack on Batavia: Blitz, Roll = 3+1 = 4 = */B (Not Converted, 2 Oil Points gained)

I chose the Blitz table for the attack in China in the hopes of preserving the unit. If you want to see what the tables look like at 4:1 odds, I have a shot of it, but basically there was a 10% chance of survival as an Assault, and a 40% chance as a Blitz. China won't be seeing any more units for a while, so I went with the higher odds of keeping the INF around. Unfortunately, the roll was a digit too high . . . a '7' would have sent him to the Production Spiral.

After the Breakthrough succeeded SW of Chisinau, and the 1:1 +2 became a 5:1 +2, I was going to choose the Blitz CRT for this one, too . . . until I realized there were no longer any hexes which would allow these guys to Retreat, so the only hope that even one of them can survive is for the Germans to roll a '1' on the Assault CRT. Well, that didn't happen.

The unit in Lvov was dead, but there was a slight chance that he could stop this group of units from advancing any further this turn . . . but he didn't. [:(]

In Batavia, the Assault CRT would have been certain death, with a 40% chance to disorganize the attackers. So, I went with another Blitz here. It only offers a 30% chance of survival and a 20% chance to disorganize . . . Batavia was going to be lost regardless. Turns out the unit did survive, but since the unit was the Batavia MIL, it won't be coming back while Batavia is in enemy hands.

[Red Prince]

A successful first strike, I'd say. Below you can see the units destroyed by the attacks this impulse, including 18 BP of Soviets. Additionally, Japan claimed 2 more Victory Cities, and unless the CW somehow manages to get a unit into Saigon before the end of the turn, a 3rd will change hands. The Japanese also claimed 3 resources, 2 Oil (in addition to the 2 Oil Points in Batavia), and finally entered Ankang and Tianshui (no chits for these). Tianshui allows another Chinese resource to reach a factory.

I don't know how it works, but there's actually a chance that Germany can claim all the remaining lands of Bessarabia before the turn ends without entering the USSR proper. I know that Bessarabia becomes part of Rumania again as soon as the last hex is claimed, so I'm wondering if I can avoid both multiplier additions by doing this. Purely hypothetical, unless the weather turns very bad again, but a curious question to which I don't know the answer.

[Centuur]

RAW:

If Rumania allows the claim, it stays neutral and Bessarabia becomes
part of the USSR for all purposes until the USSR controls no hex in
Bessarabia. At that point, Bessarabia again becomes part of Rumania.

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if there is an in
supply enemy unit in the major power’s current home country (an
unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not
Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if an enemy unit
took part during the turn in a land attack (not overrun) against any
friendly land unit (including partisans and notional units) in the major
power’s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of
the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

The key of this is indeed the word "current". This means that the USSR shouldn't get the multipliers if you don't move any units into the USSR and don't attack any unit in the USSR itself. I wonder if this has been playtested. If not, this might be worth saving and tested for seperately.

However: the Germans shouldn't stop the attack to avoid this multiplier. You are pressed for time...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Now, in answer on those Axis DoW's against China, the Allies should DoW those minors next impulse, removing chits from the USA entry pools (just as the USSR is going to DoW Italy...). The Axis had there chance of doing that last impulse too, and if they are doing gamey things like DoW'ing China with Germany and Italy, you can't simply set back as the Allies and don't try to do gamey things in return.
The Axis should have made those DoW's last turn. They didn't...
So the USSR, France and the CW should all DoW Yemen, Liberia and Tibet in next declaration of war phase removing USA chits (especially the USSR ones can remove 3 USA chits...). The Axis made a mistake last DoW phase by not doing this, so why should you favour them. Give them a piece of their own cake in return...
Now the impulse after that, the USA might be in a better position to DoW Japan or the Euroaxis because of this...

Perfectly good reason the Axis didn't DOW Yemen. Italy has a Division ready to either invade it or support it.

The point for me is that while the DOW of China was "gamey", I didn't DOW the others because there no point to it from a military viewpoint. The DOWs I made were all certain to create the results I wanted, not give a 30% chance of a positive result.

I know you'll disagree with this, but I'm trying to play "within reason". Note that the USA didn't enter the first World War until it was 80% finished already. It then took about a year to get troops onto the front lines, and most of the fatalities were the result of influenza and not battle. So, I see this as "within reason" based on that example. Did the USA DOW random other countries? No.

Sure, this is just an "excuse". If you really want me to DOW Liberia (I think it's a mistake to give that unit to the Germans), I will. I can see Yemen as a legit target (preventative measures), but while many may see this game as a farce already, I'd like to keep it within the bounds of "reason". That, to me, means a Soviet DOW on Italy is legitimate, even if they don't actually enter Iraq.

However, if you want to have the Allies DOW everything that doesn't put them physically at risk, don't forget Crete and Nepal!

If the axis do gamey stuff like DoWing China with Italy and Germany than you've already violated what is "within reason".

There is no way in a FTF game that you'd ever get away with the Allies not responding, so not DoWing with them is not playing this hotseat game "within reason".

BTW Crete is not a minor unless Greece got conquered and nobody had units in Crete at that time.

It's all about US Entry now, and once they're in, it will be all about oil (assuming this is an oil game). You want to be careful what forces those minors have. In the board game, Liberia and Yemen don't have units (or at least didn't used to). So of course you don't want to give the axis a free unit that can maybe walk into the oil hex or capital of Saudi, but if that Liberian guy can possibly do any harm to the allies than you're obviously going to need kryptonite to win with them.

OTOH if Yemen has no unit and Italy is in position to DoW it and take the capital, than you lose nothing to DoW with the Allies. AAMOF you will likely lower the entry level (BTW it's a 50% chance) whereas the Italian DoW may raise it.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

RAW:

If Rumania allows the claim, it stays neutral and Bessarabia becomes
part of the USSR for all purposes until the USSR controls no hex in
Bessarabia. At that point, Bessarabia again becomes part of Rumania.

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if there is an in
supply enemy unit in the major power’s current home country (an
unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not
Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if an enemy unit
took part during the turn in a land attack (not overrun) against any
friendly land unit (including partisans and notional units) in the major
power’s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of
the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

The key of this is indeed the word "current". This means that the USSR shouldn't get the multipliers if you don't move any units into the USSR and don't attack any unit in the USSR itself. I wonder if this has been playtested. If not, this might be worth saving and tested for seperately.

However: the Germans shouldn't stop the attack to avoid this multiplier. You are pressed for time...

I think you're right. I will create a save before entering the USSR proper, so that I can find out how this works in the game.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Centuur

RAW:

If Rumania allows the claim, it stays neutral and Bessarabia becomes
part of the USSR for all purposes until the USSR controls no hex in
Bessarabia. At that point, Bessarabia again becomes part of Rumania.

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if there is an in
supply enemy unit in the major power’s current home country (an
unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not
Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if an enemy unit
took part during the turn in a land attack (not overrun) against any
friendly land unit (including partisans and notional units) in the major
power’s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of
the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

The key of this is indeed the word "current". This means that the USSR shouldn't get the multipliers if you don't move any units into the USSR and don't attack any unit in the USSR itself. I wonder if this has been playtested. If not, this might be worth saving and tested for seperately.

However: the Germans shouldn't stop the attack to avoid this multiplier. You are pressed for time...

I think you're right. I will create a save before entering the USSR proper, so that I can find out how this works in the game.

When you attacked units in Bessarabia they were currently in the home country of USSR so that multiplier should be gained regardless if Bessarabia returns to Romania or not later on.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Now, in answer on those Axis DoW's against China, the Allies should DoW those minors next impulse, removing chits from the USA entry pools (just as the USSR is going to DoW Italy...). The Axis had there chance of doing that last impulse too, and if they are doing gamey things like DoW'ing China with Germany and Italy, you can't simply set back as the Allies and don't try to do gamey things in return.
The Axis should have made those DoW's last turn. They didn't...
So the USSR, France and the CW should all DoW Yemen, Liberia and Tibet in next declaration of war phase removing USA chits (especially the USSR ones can remove 3 USA chits...). The Axis made a mistake last DoW phase by not doing this, so why should you favour them. Give them a piece of their own cake in return...
Now the impulse after that, the USA might be in a better position to DoW Japan or the Euroaxis because of this...

Perfectly good reason the Axis didn't DOW Yemen. Italy has a Division ready to either invade it or support it.

The point for me is that while the DOW of China was "gamey", I didn't DOW the others because there no point to it from a military viewpoint. The DOWs I made were all certain to create the results I wanted, not give a 30% chance of a positive result.

I know you'll disagree with this, but I'm trying to play "within reason". Note that the USA didn't enter the first World War until it was 80% finished already. It then took about a year to get troops onto the front lines, and most of the fatalities were the result of influenza and not battle. So, I see this as "within reason" based on that example. Did the USA DOW random other countries? No.

Sure, this is just an "excuse". If you really want me to DOW Liberia (I think it's a mistake to give that unit to the Germans), I will. I can see Yemen as a legit target (preventative measures), but while many may see this game as a farce already, I'd like to keep it within the bounds of "reason". That, to me, means a Soviet DOW on Italy is legitimate, even if they don't actually enter Iraq.

However, if you want to have the Allies DOW everything that doesn't put them physically at risk, don't forget Crete and Nepal!

If the axis do gamey stuff like DoWing China with Italy and Germany than you've already violated what is "within reason".

There is no way in a FTF game that you'd ever get away with the Allies not responding, so not DoWing with them is not playing this hotseat game "within reason".

BTW Crete is not a minor unless Greece got conquered and nobody had units in Crete at that time.

It's all about US Entry now, and once they're in, it will be all about oil (assuming this is an oil game). You want to be careful what forces those minors have. In the board game, Liberia and Yemen don't have units (or at least didn't used to). So of course you don't want to give the axis a free unit that can maybe walk into the oil hex or capital of Saudi, but if that Liberian guy can possibly do any harm to the allies than you're obviously going to need kryptonite to win with them.

OTOH if Yemen has no unit and Italy is in position to DoW it and take the capital, than you lose nothing to DoW with the Allies. AAMOF you will likely lower the entry level (BTW it's a 50% chance) whereas the Italian DoW may raise it.

Oh, I haven't said I won't do these things for the Allies, but where do I place the bar? Yemen should be DOWed by the CW. It has a unit nearby in Aden, and it will prevent the Italian DOW. Also, Yemen has no ports, so it's hard for Italy to support.

Tibet, Crete, and Nepal, sure . . . why not? But what about all the South American nations that do not have units? (I'd have to look up which ones do and which ones don't). Nicaragua? El Salvador? Cuba?

That's what I mean by "within reason". I didn't DOW all of these nations with the Axis because it would have been ridiculous. I guess my definition of "within reason" (and the historical reference to the USA is only of minor use here) is something that doesn't completely change the look of the map, as below:
-----
More important info in the next post . . .

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

There is a 6-range Stuka with 3 A2s factors. It has 4 ground strike factors.

you'll notice that one is painted blue too. they're pretty sharp down there in Australia.

though maybe for when the players go sailing the seas of cheese, they could have painted in orange.

don't forget Bhutan on the cheese menu. they probably serve curdled Yak milk cheese there.

[Red Prince]

Edit: The following post is not part of the AAR game itself, but was created for the sole purpose of illustrating my point about the Allies potential "gamey" responses.
-----
These are the DOWs I made, and they all come out of the Ge/It Entry Pool. I ran out of chits somewhere around Haiti. What was the result? As soon as Italy DOWs China next impulse, the US Entry for Japan will be completely screwed again, and the US will never be able to DOW the EuroAxis.

So, beyond a DOW by the USSR on Italy, and maybe a DOW by the CW on Yemen, what is the point of any others? They won't get the results you want, because if you only DOW enough to get the Ge/It Pool "down just enough" to make the DOW, before you get the chance, one of the Axis powers (or all) will DOW all the ones you didn't . . . and you will have lost your opportunity.

The "gamey" move sent the US Entry levels too high for the Allies to combat through random DOWs on defenseless nations. They need to do it through Tension rolls instead. If I start DOWing neutral minors with the Allies, I have to start doing it with the Axis . . . which I didn't because I saw that as "gamey", while a DOW on a Major Power on its last legs is only "slightly gamey".

Regardless of which way you see it, trying to fix this by DOWing neutral minors just won't work, so why should I do it?