You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

[Shaun Wallace]

I just wandered in here to see if the new version of CC had been released. I see it has and I see I won't be buying it. And what a completely insulting reply! I own every CC game in the series as well as a lot of the mods. Currently I have one CC game loaded on this system, and two older CCs complete with oodles of mods loaded on an older system. And I won't pay $39.99 or $49.99 for this current game. $20 or $25 maybe, but even $25 seems too high. And that doesn't mean that I have no love for the CC series. 'Demonstrate your love of the CC series by giving us money.' $40-50 is for fully developed games, not for slightly modded re-releases. I don't care about 'new features', not at that price. You release a game that is what, 80-90% of the same code as a eight year old game and has the cost of a game you developed from start to finish?!?! You guys have been smoking crack. civdiv

oodles of mods

Hi CD, seems like you enjoy CC as much as the rest of us. Where did you get the mods you play from? Who has kept all these files online for you for so many years. CSO has been going as a download site for at least 10 years, CC Series net and many others around for a long time as well. How do you think that happened? You think someone gave the webspace and bandwidth? The point of the CSO site has been to have a central repository (same as CC Series) for all the maps, mods, tools, howtos, files, faq's and all the rest that goes with it. The very fact that sites like CSO has kept going and that modders have kept modding is because that "old" engine that you still enjoy is both being used and still being modded. Simtek was formed to make use of the code for the military and to use commercially. A large part of the input and impetus within Simtek has come from that modding community that has given you "oodles of mods" to enjoy for so long. many of the same people are also involved in other projects and CC6. I was involved with Eric in both GIC and EYSA and think that top down is pefect for Close Combat. Even with a new engine CC will still look and feel very similar. a large 3D world is very hard to control on a tactical level without the overview CC gives. When we move forward and onto a new engine there are certain things that have to be kept for it to actually work as CC. CC is not simply another RTS its a different genre out there on its own. Its a Real Time Tactial game/simulation.

You guys have been smoking crack.

You seem to be very angry for some reason and to take all of this very personally. Simply don't buy it. I can see why the circular comment was brought up Which end of the telescope are you actually using there mate...

Sulla

[civdiv]

Shaun,
The circular comment is due to the fact that defenders of the price tag keep going back to why the engine hasn't been changed. Our argument is we think the cost of the game is too expensive given that the game engine is essentially unchanged. The other argument (From the pro-CoI side) is that the game should rest on its own merits and be regarded as a new game (and reviewed as such) despite having an 8 year old engine under the hood.

This is a re-release of an old game, but it is priced as if it is an entirely new game, that is the crux of most people's criticism. You guys keep defending by going into the 'if it ain't broke than don't fix it' or 'the UI is just fine' or 'it needs to stay compatible with the mods' line of defense. It is you (you in general, not directed specifically at anyone) who keep the argument circular because you refuse to provide any reason a game that uses a slightly tweeked engine and a bunch of public domain mods should be priced as a new game. That is the crux of the criticism.

In regards to keeping the CC line alive, I am all for that. But by stating that buying an overpriced game is supporting the CC world is pure propaganda. What, if we paid $30 for the game we wouldn't be supporting the CC world? What, modders who built cool stuff for CC years ago and freely put them in the public domain now want to be paid for their efforts? I remember years ago (Since late-2003, I know the timeframe as that is when I bought my old laptop that still has a heavily modded CC 3 and 5 installed on it.) I contributed (IIRC; $50) to a site that hosted a slew of mods. Not sure if it was CSO, I just checked and unless the site has been completely rebuilt graphically in the last 3 years or so, I don't recognize it. I routinely contribute money to websites or for utilities I use. I've donated to DL Accelerator, Gamespy (Years ago), The Wargamer, Roger Wilco, and several other websites devoted to games I enjoy or have enjoyed. That's off the top of my head, I'm sure there are other instances.

Prince,
Quit with the 'bargain-bin' buzz word bologny, $30 is not a bargain bin price.

To All,
I'm tired of the argument. It's clear that a lot of CC lovers are upset over this issue. Thus far you (again, general you) have done nothing to convince us that we are wrong.

civdiv

[vonB]

It's clear that a lot of CC lovers are upset over this issue.

How many is a lot?  From what I can see, it is a very small minority, albeit vocal. 
 
'Bargain' is a relative concept.  I think it's a bargain. Someone else doesn't.  Who's right? 

[Shaun Wallace]

To All,
I'm tired of the argument. It's clear that a lot of CC lovers are upset over this issue. Thus far you (again, general you) have done nothing to convince us that we are wrong.

I'm tired of the argument. It's - Me too Alot is as far as I see it, the same as VonB sees it, a very vocal minority.

Sulla

[civdiv]

Well, I just went all the way through this topic and added up the responses. I did not count developers or employees of Matrix or Simtek (That I could identify) or admins. The results;

8 said the price was too high, and with one exception said they would not buy the game.

16 said the price was alright, but MAYBE half of them stated they had actually bought the game.

A third is a lot, I would think, from the perspective of a commercial enterprise.

Taking into account that there are probably people affiliated with Simtek or Matrix, or people with some midicum of interest in the commercial success of the game that I could not identify, I would say that the price point has alienated more than a third of consumers. Obviously this is not a very scientific poll, and the data set is small, but it certainly indicates a trend.

Is it a minority? Sure, 49% is a minority.

vonB, go to your local game store and count how many $30 games are in the bargain bin. Honestly, how many would YOU expect to find? I'm a psychic as I know you would expect to find zero. So quit with the disingenuous argument.

civdiv

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: civdiv

Thus far you (again, general you) have done nothing to convince us that we are wrong.

Precisely, who is the "us" to whom you are referring, you and monkey brain?

Representatives from both the developer and publisher have come here and very patiently explained to the angry little horde that is "us" the rationale behind the pricing scheme. Simply put, to have charged less on a print run so small would have meant no profit to either party, get it? Your willingness to ignore the salient nature of this truth is really sort of mind-numbing. What else would you have Matrix and Simtek do in their attempt to allay your concerns, provide an accountant to educate "us" as to the slings and arrows of business logic?

Mercifully, the ALL of you that is "us" don't amount to any great loss, sales wise, which is after all the thread topic. Given that the folks that support the price as is outnumbers "us" by ten or fifteen to one, it really appears as though you've suffered a total, ignominious defeat in your quest to have CoI priced lower than a decent bottle of scotch. What an honor, really, for all of "us."

PoE

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: civdiv

8 said the price was too high, and with one exception said they would not buy the game.

civdiv

Name 'em.

And while you're at it, kindly check out message #20 in which the thread's originator, jpinard, changed his stance on the issue after Shaun Wallace detailed the history and economics of CoI.

PoE

[Shaun Wallace]

I'm tired of the argument.

What part of this DID you mean [;)] I really am tired of the same ground over and over...

Sulla

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

And while you're at it, kindly check out message #20 in which the thread's originator, jpinard, changed his stance on the issue after Shaun Wallace detailed the history and economics of CoI.

Yup. I made it four, excluding yourself, civdiv. Of those, one changed his mind, one had issues not so much with the price as with the sales tax that Matrix/Digital River have to add to Euro sales, and a third just couldn't decide which game to buy. That leaves two, including you.

[civdiv]

Precisely, who is the "us" to whom you are referring, you and monkey brain?

The eight of 'us' that said the price was too high, namely;

me
jpinard
canuck
oleg
Moneky Brain
toast
goodguy
ezz

You really didn't need me to provide that info, now did you?

Representatives from both the developer and publisher have come here and very patiently explained to the angry little horde that is "us" the rationale behind the pricing scheme. Simply put, to have charged less on a print run so small would have meant no profit to either party, get it? Your willingness to ignore the salient nature of this truth is really sort of mind-numbing. What else would you have Matrix and Simtek do in their attempt to allay your concerns, provide an accountant to educate "us" as to the slings and arrows of business logic?

So, taking a completed game and incorporating some minor tweeking and the addition of some mods costs the same as developing a game from scratch, right? By that metric recreating an eight year old game from scratch would probably cost around $500 a copy, right? They haven't touched this issue yet except in nebulous statements like 'hard working team of developers...', 'can you put troops in a boat and go sailing....', 'but we provided mods to the community for free for years....', 'we need to pay for CSO's bandwidth...'.

Mercifully, the ALL of you that is "us" don't amount to any great loss, sales wise, which is after all the thread topic. Given that the folks that support the price as is outnumbers "us" by ten or fifteen to one, it really appears as though you've suffered a total, ignominious defeat in your quest to have CoI priced lower than a decent bottle of scotch. What an honor, really, for all of "us."

That must be 'new math'. Yes, your fictional army dealt me an ignominous defeat, uncle already!

Simtek, thanks for helping to keep the CC community alive. I hope CC6 comes out and is a success, but I'm not playing till that happens.

civdiv

[Prince of Eckmühl]

And I count the following in support of the price as is:

Jpinard
Herston
Stillford
Teri
FNG
Rabbitman
Litfuel
Jamiam
Bloodknight
Tactics
Inquisitor
KG Erwin
PoE
Senior Drill
Doggie
Good Guy
Schrecken
Vic Kevlar
VonB
Genozaur
M5000.2006
Zap

That's twenty-two, and doesn't include Shaun Wallace or staff from Matrix.

If I butchered anyones handle, please forgive. Likewise, if I've mis-characterized your support for the game's pricing, PLEASE let me know, and I shall apologize to you both publicly and via PM.

PoE

[Monkeys Brain]

[/quote]

I just wandered in here to see if the new version of CC had been released. I see it has and I see I won't be buying it. And what a completely insulting reply! I own every CC game in the series as well as a lot of the mods. Currently I have one CC game loaded on this system, and two older CCs complete with oodles of mods loaded on an older system. And I won't pay $39.99 or $49.99 for this current game. $20 or $25 maybe, but even $25 seems too high. And that doesn't mean that I have no love for the CC series. 'Demonstrate your love of the CC series by giving us money.' $40-50 is for fully developed games, not for slightly modded re-releases. I don't care about 'new features', not at that price. You release a game that is what, 80-90% of the same code as a eight year old game and has the cost of a game you developed from start to finish?!?! You guys have been smoking crack.

civdiv
[/quote]


BRAVO! [&o]

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: civdiv

me
jpinard
canuck
oleg
Moneky Brain
toast
goodguy
ezz

Well, let's look more closely at the posts of these contributors...

me: ain't buyin

jpinard: graciously changed his stance after Shaun's explanation of the facts

canuck: Ain't buyin'

Oleg: At one point in his posts, Oleg specifically noted that he wasn't complaining about the price.

Toast: He was complaining about VAT not being included in the price.

Good Guy: You need to read this one more carefully; there's no complaint about the price in that post.

ezz: Ain't buyin' (for now)

Monkey Brain: What can I say?

And I'll extend the same commitment to these folks that I made to the game's supporters. If I've misunderstood your posts or mis-characterized your stance on the issue, please speak up, and I'll apologize, PDQ.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[m5000.2006]

oh, c'mon, let's bury the hatchet , ther's no point...


let's play CC instead...

[civdiv]

It's bad enough that we disagree, and disagree vehemently. It's worse that you have to make stuff up;

Me; I don't have to quote myself.

jpinard; this is the guy that started this by talking about how many people he had talked with that said the game is too expensive. But now he's on your side, and he still hasn't bought the game.

cannuck; "Well I won't be paying 39.99 for it-or 49.99 for that matter."

oleg; "If you say CC6 will be this and that I have only your word, nothing else. CC: CoI is not even a teaser for CC6, it's quite simply the 100% copy of the 8 year old game (+ mods blah blah) which does not work well as promise for the future (something, that you want funded with players money)."

Monkey Brains; "Before someone tell me that I am nuts for giving 30000 as a number that is realistic number that can be reached with a good product and in this case good priciung policy (not 40 $, that is ridicolously big number of lost sales because many people will pass on this buy)."

Toast; Yeah, his complaint was the £4 VAT. If the game was £5 cheaper he still would have balked at the VAT, right? He was willing to pay £20 but not £24, but if it had been say, £19 w/ VAT he wouldn't have bought it, right? Only he can answer that but to me your argument is ludicrous.

Goodguy; "Question is, though, will it be like a "1.5" game, or like a "2.0" one (all new engine, brandnew AI, new theater, etc.)? Imho, CoI is like 1.3 or 1.4-ish. If there'd be something like 2.0, I'd buy it, definetly."

Cliff Notes Version: Not enough bang for the buck, but again only he can answer.

ezz; "i have the funds, i have played board wargames since the 80's and computer wargames since Harpoon one on 5.25 inch floppys, and I could buy this game.

But i won't .. for all of the above reasons , and the fact that I have only a limited amount of time to play now.

If it was 'buy Cross of Iron + get Bombing the Reich 1/2 price I might be more tempted'"

I didn't really have to do that for you, now did I? And keep in mind that I was VERY lenient when I put people in your camp. Basically anyone that did not criticise the price I regarded as pro-price, and most of them said nothing about buying the game. So you have a pool of definately won't buy, and then a pool evenly divided between will buy/have bought the game, and those that don't have a problem with the price but haven't bought it.

But there's no problem here, right?

And to the one poster that made the claim, I am not asking Matrix to lower the cost of the game, at this point I have lost interest in it.

civdiv

[Monkeys Brain]

Monkey Brain: What can I say?

Well, take a pencil and write me along those "non buying" [:D]

BTW, if you wanna know I just purchased Theatre of War at BF LOL - I ain't gonna pay 40$ for this pig with a lipstick [:D]

last one is a joke, I am sure that game is good but principles are principles.

The problem here is that wolpfack methods are not good in this situation. Because you can put dissent down here - but you ain't put it down everywhere on Internet. And I am sure that numbers of those putt off with the price is not that small to ignore.
Bad PR not mentioned.

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: m5000.2006

oh, c'mon, let's bury the hatchet , ther's no point...


let's play CC instead...

No problem with me - just wanted to take my point across.
And thread is hillarious and fun [:D]

I just played Medieval II urgh game is masterpiece.



Mario

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: civdiv

It's bad enough that we disagree, and disagree vehemently. It's worse that you have to make stuff up;

Me; I don't have to quote myself.

jpinard; this is the guy that started this by talking about how many people he had talked with that said the game is too expensive. But now he's on your side, and he still hasn't bought the game.

cannuck; "Well I won't be paying 39.99 for it-or 49.99 for that matter."

oleg; "If you say CC6 will be this and that I have only your word, nothing else. CC: CoI is not even a teaser for CC6, it's quite simply the 100% copy of the 8 year old game (+ mods blah blah) which does not work well as promise for the future (something, that you want funded with players money)."

Monkey Brains; "Before someone tell me that I am nuts for giving 30000 as a number that is realistic number that can be reached with a good product and in this case good priciung policy (not 40 $, that is ridicolously big number of lost sales because many people will pass on this buy)."

Toast; Yeah, his complaint was the £4 VAT. If the game was £5 cheaper he still would have balked at the VAT, right? He was willing to pay £20 but not £24, but if it had been say, £19 w/ VAT he wouldn't have bought it, right? Only he can answer that but to me your argument is ludicrous.

Goodguy; "Question is, though, will it be like a "1.5" game, or like a "2.0" one (all new engine, brandnew AI, new theater, etc.)? Imho, CoI is like 1.3 or 1.4-ish. If there'd be something like 2.0, I'd buy it, definetly."

Cliff Notes Version: Not enough bang for the buck, but again only he can answer.

ezz; "i have the funds, i have played board wargames since the 80's and computer wargames since Harpoon one on 5.25 inch floppys, and I could buy this game.

But i won't .. for all of the above reasons , and the fact that I have only a limited amount of time to play now.

If it was 'buy Cross of Iron + get Bombing the Reich 1/2 price I might be more tempted'"

I didn't really have to do that for you, now did I? And keep in mind that I was VERY lenient when I put people in your camp.

civdiv

Goodguy; "Question is, though, will it be like a "1.5" game, or like a "2.0" one (all new engine, brandnew AI, new theater, etc.)? Imho, CoI is like 1.3 or 1.4-ish. If there'd be something like 2.0, I'd buy it, definetly."

Hey, my offer stands. If I mis-characterized the stance of the folks in either group, I'll glady apologize. I KNOW where you stand on the issue, so I assume that no apology will be necessary.

PoE

[civdiv]

I have made my point numerous times.  The other camp has made their point numerous times.  We are not going to agree.  Let's agree to disagree.  We can agree that we want a strong CC community and future releases of this game.  I don't think anyone who has chimed in on this topic would disagree with the latter.

civdiv

[vonB]

ROFLMAO.. [:D] For some reason this thread has cheeered me up no end.  Nice to know that much ado about nothing is still as well presented as it ever was...