AI for MWiF - China

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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Isn't it a thread for China, I know it's related but if we are talking about a strategy on how Japan should launch an offensive in China, maybe that should go in the AI for MWiF - Japan thread?
To develop a defense for China, it is esential to know what attacks/offensives to expect from Japan. These are from the Chinese presepctive, which doesn't have to worry about Japanese Production, Actions, ferrying troops from Japan to China, etc.

Instead, Peter is just worrying about where the Japanese "offensive thrusts" are likely to occur and how to counter them.

For the Japanese AIO, there will be a lot of overlap, but Japan has to also worry about a DOW by the USSR (for example).
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Centuur »

I wonder. Are the warlord units now able to walk through the whole province they are build in? Now the map has got more hexes, they should be able to move a little more...
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I wonder. Are the warlord units now able to walk through the whole province they are build in? Now the map has got more hexes, they should be able to move a little more...
The change in scale in China meant that we changed their 'range' to 6 hexes from their given city. On setup, they can be placed anywhere within that range. When they arrive as a reinforcement, they have to setup in their home city.
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by brian brian »

for setting up WarLord units, I thought it was:

"All Warlord units set up in every game on their home city"



I'm betting MWiF will automatically change the color of the unit based on who controls the city though....
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: brian brian

for setting up WarLord units, I thought it was:

"All Warlord units set up in every game on their home city"



I'm betting MWiF will automatically change the color of the unit based on who controls the city though....
Yeah. But I decided that was silly. At the start of the game Warlords can set up like any other unit - but within their imposed limitiations. In WIF FE it doesn't matter all that much since the range of the Warlords is much less (2 hexes?).

Yes, the colors are dynamic with who controls the unit.
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by composer99 »

Since I've been thinking a bit about other major powers' strategic bombing options, I figured I should bring up China's.

The Chinese will usually rely on lend-lease LND4 for strategic bombing (the two paltry 5-range LND3 with 1 strat factor apiece in their force pools being on the inadequate side). With the WiF base and Planes in Flames units they can get two 9-range LND4 from the US with 6 strat factors and extended range option, and one 11-range LND4 from the USSR with 5 strat factors and ATR capability. Given the small size of the Chinese air force (they only get two other lend-lease bombers, period, if I am not mistaken), it is not unreasonable to suggest that a Chinese side which is not too crippled early on will have all three of these LND4 on the map.

The most likely targets for Chinese strategic bombing are the red factories in Canton & Shanghai. The best forward bases to strike these, if playing with the extra cities, are Chihkiang and Ichang; if these are occupied by the Japanese then Chungking or Kweiyang will have to do.

If the Chinese can muster all three LND4 into a raid that can burn down a factory, I personally see no reason not to try. Unless they do exceptionally well, the Chinese will probably not recapture either city until quite late in a game (if ever!).

Less likely targets (because the Nationalists need to make significant late-war gains to be in range to hit them) are the factories in Manchuria or even Japan.

A secondary purpose of the Chinese strategic air campaign is to tie down Japanese FTR to defending these targets when the Japanese would rather have them near the front or fighting the US/CW/USSR, or to force Japan to decide between committing FTR against some combination of port strikes, naval air, tactical strikes, or strategic raids (or even better, fail to commit the FTR against any of these for fear of losing use of the FTR).
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since I've been thinking a bit about other major powers' strategic bombing options, I figured I should bring up China's.

The Chinese will usually rely on lend-lease LND4 for strategic bombing (the two paltry 5-range LND3 with 1 strat factor apiece in their force pools being on the inadequate side). With the WiF base and Planes in Flames units they can get two 9-range LND4 from the US with 6 strat factors and extended range option, and one 11-range LND4 from the USSR with 5 strat factors and ATR capability. Given the small size of the Chinese air force (they only get two other lend-lease bombers, period, if I am not mistaken), it is not unreasonable to suggest that a Chinese side which is not too crippled early on will have all three of these LND4 on the map.

The most likely targets for Chinese strategic bombing are the red factories in Canton & Shanghai. The best forward bases to strike these, if playing with the extra cities, are Chihkiang and Ichang; if these are occupied by the Japanese then Chungking or Kweiyang will have to do.

If the Chinese can muster all three LND4 into a raid that can burn down a factory, I personally see no reason not to try. Unless they do exceptionally well, the Chinese will probably not recapture either city until quite late in a game (if ever!).

Less likely targets (because the Nationalists need to make significant late-war gains to be in range to hit them) are the factories in Manchuria or even Japan.

A secondary purpose of the Chinese strategic air campaign is to tie down Japanese FTR to defending these targets when the Japanese would rather have them near the front or fighting the US/CW/USSR, or to force Japan to decide between committing FTR against some combination of port strikes, naval air, tactical strikes, or strategic raids (or even better, fail to commit the FTR against any of these for fear of losing use of the FTR).
Nice. Thanks.

Do you think you could come up with general criteria for when to perform (or threaten to perform) strategic bombing? It would be nice to make one rule/script that could be used by all major powers. Historically, the Britsh bombed at night and the US during the day. Perhaps that should also be part of the decision making process - along with when to split a strong strategic bombing group so they go after more than 1 target.
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Orm »

With Stillwell built the Chinese can augment their strat bomb campaign with a couple of US bombers.
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Extraneous »

[&:] do you use/not use 13.1 Partisans (option 46) [&:]
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by brian brian »

As the Russians, I would never give up one of my precious TB-3's to the Chinese....
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by peskpesk »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since I've been thinking a bit about other major powers' strategic bombing options, I figured I should bring up China's.

The Chinese will usually rely on lend-lease LND4 for strategic bombing (the two paltry 5-range LND3 with 1 strat factor apiece in their force pools being on the inadequate side). With the WiF base and Planes in Flames units they can get two 9-range LND4 from the US with 6 strat factors and extended range option, and one 11-range LND4 from the USSR with 5 strat factors and ATR capability. Given the small size of the Chinese air force (they only get two other lend-lease bombers, period, if I am not mistaken), it is not unreasonable to suggest that a Chinese side which is not too crippled early on will have all three of these LND4 on the map.

The most likely targets for Chinese strategic bombing are the red factories in Canton & Shanghai. The best forward bases to strike these, if playing with the extra cities, are Chihkiang and Ichang; if these are occupied by the Japanese then Chungking or Kweiyang will have to do.

If the Chinese can muster all three LND4 into a raid that can burn down a factory, I personally see no reason not to try. Unless they do exceptionally well, the Chinese will probably not recapture either city until quite late in a game (if ever!).

Less likely targets (because the Nationalists need to make significant late-war gains to be in range to hit them) are the factories in Manchuria or even Japan.

A secondary purpose of the Chinese strategic air campaign is to tie down Japanese FTR to defending these targets when the Japanese would rather have them near the front or fighting the US/CW/USSR, or to force Japan to decide between committing FTR against some combination of port strikes, naval air, tactical strikes, or strategic raids (or even better, fail to commit the FTR against any of these for fear of losing use of the FTR).
Nice. Thanks.

Do you think you could come up with general criteria for when to perform (or threaten to perform) strategic bombing? It would be nice to make one rule/script that could be used by all major powers. Historically, the Britsh bombed at night and the US during the day. Perhaps that should also be part of the decision making process - along with when to split a strong strategic bombing group so they go after more than 1 target.

To get people started on a general criteria for when to perform strategic bombing I made this simple flowchart.



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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Extraneous »

Start

Set switch to Day bombing

If target unprotected go to Bomb

Target is Protected If Escort possible go to Check Odds

Night Bombing Change switch from Day Bombing to Night Bombing

Check Odds

If Odds less than -2 go to Bomb

If Day Bombing go to Night Bombing

If Night Bombing go to End

Bomb

End


You only do Yes/No using the “Interrogative symbol” in a flow chart.

You need 5 “Interrogative symbols” in your flow chart.

Did I ever mention I was a Documentation Analyst and have done more system and program flow charts than you could believe?


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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Red Prince »

You only do Yes/No using the “Interrogative symbol” in a flow chart.

You need 5 “Interrogative symbols” in your flow chart.
What exactly is an "Interrogative symbol"?

In my view, while I apologize for bastardizing the proper system, if it is easily understood by the audience, then I don't really care how it is displayed. This, of course, is the opinion of a layman. [:)]
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Extraneous »

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
You only do Yes/No using the “Interrogative symbol” in a flow chart.

You need 5 “Interrogative symbols” in your flow chart.
What exactly is an "Interrogative symbol"?

In my view, while I apologize for bastardizing the proper system, if it is easily understood by the audience, then I don't really care how it is displayed. This, of course, is the opinion of a layman. [:)]


The "Diamond" shaped box with the question inside. [:)]
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by peskpesk »

Moved to new generic strat bombing thread.
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by composer99 »

I suggest moving the strategic bombing flowchart & follow-up over to the new generic strat bombing thread.
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Extraneous »

I'm not going to say any more about your Logic Flowchart.

I'm going to play nice
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by composer99 »

With regards to the following from the US thread:
ORIGINAL: Extraneous
ORIGINAL: composer99

pauldernyck:

The +.25 per year could be interpreted the same way you have jokingly interpreted +.25 per turn (just not as extreme [:)])

At any rate, the text Extraneous uses is copy/paste from RaW.

I am not aware of any interpretation of this rule other than:
"China's base production multiple increases by .25" (so they would have, using Hitler's War, a base multiple of .5 in 1939, .75 in 1940/41, 1 in 1942/43, and 1.25 in 1944/45)

The actual text of the rule is:
Option 49: (Hitler's war) Replace notes (b), (d) and (e) of the Production Multiples Table with:
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;
(d) +0.25 to the USSR while Germany and the USSR are at war with each other.
Using this option, major powers no longer receive a bonus for an in supply enemy unit in their home country, and the USSR no longer receives any bonuses based on the cities they control.

But (a), (b), (d), and (e) are additions to the Production Multiple base aren't they?

I believe that these increases only occur during each turn.

Think of it this way if China was at peace and Japan was not in China then China's Production Multiple would be 0.25.

But in 1939 China is at war with Japan and Japan is in China. So China's Production Multiple is a minimum of 0.50 and a maximum of 0.75.


PMB = For 1939 China's Production Multiple Base is 0.25.
A = +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn
B = +0.25 to China each turn


If Japan does not attack China during the turn then China would get:
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;

Production Multiple = PMB + A
China's production multiple during this turn only would be 0.50.


If Japan attacks China during the turn China would get:
(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;

Production Multiple = PMB + A + B
China's production multiple during this turn only would be 0.75.


I don't believe that these increases accumulate to the base each turn.

New PMB = Old PMB + A
Or
New PMB = Old PMB + A + B


There does not appear to be any difference in the final numbers.

In 1939, when playing without the Hitler's War option, China's base production multiple is 0.25.

(1) While in-supply enemy units are occupying hexes in home country China during any production step, China receives a bonus of 0.25 to its production multiple.
(2) China also receives a bonus of 0.25 during the production step of any turn in which Japan launches a land attack against a hex in China.

So in any turn in 1939 where both (1) and (2) are true, China's production multiple is 0.75.


When playing with Hitler's War, China's base production multiple is 0.25.

(1) China no longer receives a bonus of 0.25 to its production multiple for enemy units occupying hexes in the China home country.
(2) China also receives a bonus of 0.25 during the production step of any turn in which Japan launches a land attack against a hex in China.
(3) China receives a bonus of 0.25 to its production multiple in each production step.

Items (1) and (3) are always true, so whatever Japan does, in 1939 China's production multiple is at least 0.5, and if Japan launches land attacks (that is, (2) is true), China's production multiple is 0.75.
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by Extraneous »

I have included the rest of option 49.

As you can see it really changes what happens to the other major powers production multiples when they have enemy units in their home countries.

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
13.6.3 Production multiples
Each major power has an initial production multiple. These rise progressively during the game. Essentially, this reflects an increasing national industrial output and an increasing share of that output being devoted to military uses. Production multiples are listed on the Production Multiples Chart.

(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 while an in-supply enemy land unit is in your home country (not Siberia, and only UK counts for the CW).
(c) +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 22; +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 34; +0.25 ~ war; +0.25 ~ total war; +0.25 each 6 turns after US entry opt. 34.
(d) +0.25 from 1942 onwards if Minsk or Kiev are Russian controlled.
(e) +0.25 from 1943 onwards if Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad are Russian controlled.

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if there is an in supply enemy unit in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if an enemy unit took part during the turn in a land attack (not overrun) against any friendly land unit (including partisans and notional units) in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase the USA’s production multiple:
By 0.25 when the US chooses entry option 22 Gear up production.
By 0.25 when the US chooses entry option 34 Pass War Appropriations Bill.
By 0.25 when the US is at war with any Axis major power.
By 0.25 when the US is at war with every Axis major power that has not yet been completely conquered.
By 0.25 on the anniversary (i.e. after every 6 turns) of the turn the US selected entry option 34 Pass War Appropriations Bill.
EDITED Option 49: (Hitler’s war) Replace Production Multiples Notes listed on the Production Multiples Chart with:
(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;
(c) +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 22; +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 34; +0.25 ~ war; +0.25 ~ total war; +0.25 each 6 turns after US entry opt. 34.
(d) +0.25 to the USSR while Germany and the USSR are at war with each other.

Using this option, major powers no longer receive a bonus for an in supply enemy unit in their home country, and the USSR no longer receives any bonuses based on the cities they control.
13.3.2 US entry options
30 Lend lease to USSR - The US, CW and/or France can give or receive 1 build point each per turn to or from the USSR in future turns even if the USSR is neutral (5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 19 Resources to USSR. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

Option 49: (Hitler’s war) From now until Germany and the Soviet Union are at war, the Soviets pick an extra marker during the entry marker step of each turn. After looking at the marker, they can treat it as a normal marker (offensively or defensively) or stack it face down on any of their useable factory stacks. Once placed they may never be moved even if the hex becomes controlled by another major power.

During their first production step at war with Germany, turn all entry markers on factory stacks face up. These markers are converted into saved build points (AfA option 31 ~ see 13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)) available for production or saved for future turns. If not playing AfA option 31, those extra build points must be spent immediately under the restrictions of 13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)and any excess after production are lost.
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RE: AI for MWiF - China

Post by composer99 »

What does the effect of Hitler's War option on other major powers have to do with its effect on China? Based on the US thread the impression I had was that China's production multiple was the topic at hand.
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