Saving Private Ryan?

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Ian R
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by Ian R »

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Currently reading Beevor's "Stalingrad"

I'd wager that most Americans couldn't fully grasp much less appreciate what the Russians went through as well as the Chinese. For the former, The level of brutality and ruthlessness, from both the enemy as well as their own side, are just totally alien to most Westener's experiences. The passage i just read that involved random executions on the spot to disuade further incidents of "cowardice" among one particular Russian division put an exclamation point on it.

Great book Nik. His follow up one on Berlin is also very good.

As is his book on Crete
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

"Amazing what fellow countrymen can do to each other in civil wars. And exactly what is so civil, about a civil war" -- Stuman

Not so amazing. Civil wars are brutal per definition (well, this seems absurd, since per definition "war" is brutal). I mean, they tend to be more brutal than normal wars.

In a "normal" war state x fights state y. Each state has a different army. The enemy is an amorphous mass which is obviously demonised. But in civil wars the cocktail is different. The "enemy" may have a very familiar face (your next door neighbour perhaps): "you stole my wife / land / burned my car, I always hated you so now I am going to kill you and get my cat to piss on your cold body..." Payback time, eh? [;)]
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stuman
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by stuman »

"Yes, the medical statistics record incidents (hospitalisations to be exact) not individuals. Presumably few if anyone got killed more than once though. " [:D]


"You should probably direct that at someone who knows something about statistics :). My background is in history...I struggle to make four of two and two. "


As is mine. My major in college was History. But after obtaining aa MBA and Law degree, I somehow ended up practicing as a CPA. At heart I am still a historian I think.
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DuckofTindalos
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by DuckofTindalos »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"Amazing what fellow countrymen can do to each other in civil wars. And exactly what is so civil, about a civil war" -- Stuman

Not so amazing. Civil wars are brutal per definition (well, this seems absurd, since per definition "war" is brutal). I mean, they tend to be more brutal than normal wars.

In a "normal" war state x fights state y. Each state has a different army. The enemy is an amorphous mass which is obviously demonised. But in civil wars the cocktail is different. The "enemy" may have a very familiar face (your next door neighbour perhaps): "you stole my wife / land / burned my car, I always hated you so now I am going to kill you and get my cat to piss on your cold body..." Payback time, eh? [;)]

Indeed. Civil wars are always the worst.
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HMAS Sydney
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by HMAS Sydney »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"Amazing what fellow countrymen can do to each other in civil wars. And exactly what is so civil, about a civil war" -- Stuman

Not so amazing. Civil wars are brutal per definition (well, this seems absurd, since per definition "war" is brutal). I mean, they tend to be more brutal than normal wars.

In a "normal" war state x fights state y. Each state has a different army. The enemy is an amorphous mass which is obviously demonised. But in civil wars the cocktail is different. The "enemy" may have a very familiar face (your next door neighbour perhaps): "you stole my wife / land / burned my car, I always hated you so now I am going to kill you and get my cat to piss on your cold body..." Payback time, eh? [;)]

Indeed. Civil wars are always the worst.

I bet those who fought on the Eastern Front would disagree.
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by Canoerebel »

HMAS, you must've received today's assignment to serve as auto-contrarian.
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HMAS Sydney
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by HMAS Sydney »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

HMAS, you must've received today's assignment to serve as auto-contrarian.

I can neither confirm nor deny.
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DuckofTindalos
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by DuckofTindalos »

ORIGINAL: HMAS Sydney

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"Amazing what fellow countrymen can do to each other in civil wars. And exactly what is so civil, about a civil war" -- Stuman

Not so amazing. Civil wars are brutal per definition (well, this seems absurd, since per definition "war" is brutal). I mean, they tend to be more brutal than normal wars.

In a "normal" war state x fights state y. Each state has a different army. The enemy is an amorphous mass which is obviously demonised. But in civil wars the cocktail is different. The "enemy" may have a very familiar face (your next door neighbour perhaps): "you stole my wife / land / burned my car, I always hated you so now I am going to kill you and get my cat to piss on your cold body..." Payback time, eh? [;)]

Indeed. Civil wars are always the worst.

I bet those who fought on the Eastern Front would disagree.

I bet I don't care. I saw the aftermath of the civil war in Bosnia with my own eyes, and what ethnic cleansing looked like in Kosovo.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
HMAS Sydney
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by HMAS Sydney »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: HMAS Sydney

ORIGINAL: Terminus




Indeed. Civil wars are always the worst.

I bet those who fought on the Eastern Front would disagree.

I bet I don't care. I saw the aftermath of the civil war in Bosnia with my own eyes, and what ethnic cleansing looked like in Kosovo.

Quite a lot of cleansing wherever Germany went during WW2.
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BrucePowers
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by BrucePowers »

ORIGINAL: HMAS Sydney

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Americans will fight, abroad, if riled, or attacked.
We also (by nature) help our defeated foes rebuild and survive once the war is over.


Most American soldiers during WW2 were conscripted. I keep reading about how everyone was eager to fight in books, documentaries, etc, but the fact is that most American soldiers had to be conscripted.


Very true. Most waited to be conscripted. Those young men knew they would be conscripted. They also knew the war would be a long drawn out hard fought affair. There was othing wrong with waiting until Uncle Sam sent you your greetings letter. Also, if everyone had jumped up and rushed to the recruiting center, the US military could not have handled the influx in January, 1942.
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timtom
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by timtom »

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

Most waited to be conscripted. Those young men knew they would be conscripted. They also knew the war would be a long drawn out hard fought affair. There was othing wrong with waiting until Uncle Sam sent you your greetings letter. Also, if everyone had jumped up and rushed to the recruiting center, the US military could not have handled the influx in January, 1942.

Indeed the Army was less than lukewarm about volunteering as conscription facilitated greater efficiancy in manpower allocation. The fact that volunteers tended to opt for the Air Corps, Navy, or the Marines did help either.

However it doesn't follow from here that, unlike what Greatest Generation mythology would seem to have us believe, everybody was just raring to go do they bit for God, mum and apple pie or that they had any idea what they might be getting themselves into. It probably helped that the US could afford to in effect shield the body polity from direct participation through a by comparison very generous deferment policy. Thus of the roughly 25 million men aged 18 to 37 processed by US Army induction boards 1940-45, 16 million were granted deferments. 15 million of these were on grounds of dependancy, though some hundred thousands (IIRC) were revoked in '44 when the infantry replacement crisis hit. When selective service was introduced in 1940, 75% of those who'd eventually serve in the Army were aged 25 or younger. Crudely put the young and the outcast were shipped off to war, but they did go almost to a man. Conscientious objectors came to 0.13% of Army inductees, fx.



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witpqs
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by witpqs »

My father had quit school after the sixth grade to go to work and help support his mother and siblings. When WWII came around, yes he waited to be drafted.

Definitions change with context. Today a depression seems to mean canceling some cable TV channels. Back then it meant starvation.
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

My father had quit school after the sixth grade to go to work and help support his mother and siblings. When WWII came around, yes he waited to be drafted.

Definitions change with context. Today a depression seems to mean canceling some cable TV channels. Back then it meant starvation.


Correct as usual, my friend.
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m10bob
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

HMAS, you must've received today's assignment to serve as auto-contrarian.


When well earned, candidates for "The Order Of The Green Button " are promptly rewarded.[;)]
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by mikemike »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Indeed. Civil wars are always the worst.

A good historical example would be the Thirty Years War which was essentially a civil war with a little help from foreign friends and killed about a third of the German population. In some areas, population numbers had barely recovered when the French Revolution happened. The contemporary documents frequently make harrowing reading. When the Imperial Army (consisting mainly of Bavarian troops) made its first foray into staunchly-protestant Bohemia (what is now the western part of the Czech republic) they brought their own Re-catholisation (if that is a word) teams with them, so once a Bohemian town had been occupied by the Imperials, inhabitants came in two flavors: (1) Roman-Catholic or (2) dead. Soldiers mercilessly preyed on the civilian population, even on those nominally on the same side; looting provided a significant part of their income. This got so bad that in the later years of the war villagers organized in self-defence against all comers which was quite unprecedented; soldiers separated from their units that fell into the hands of peasants usually came to a sticky end. At the end of the war large parts of the Holy Roman Empire were in a state comparable to todays Somalia - an almost complete dissolution of law, order, and civilized society.
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Nikademus
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: timtom

[
Indeed the Army was less than lukewarm about volunteering as conscription facilitated greater efficiancy in manpower allocation. The fact that volunteers tended to opt for the Air Corps, Navy, or the Marines did help either.

However it doesn't follow from here that, unlike what Greatest Generation mythology would seem to have us believe, everybody was just raring to go do they bit for God, mum and apple pie or that they had any idea what they might be getting themselves into. It probably helped that the US could afford to in effect shield the body polity from direct participation through a by comparison very generous deferment policy. Thus of the roughly 25 million men aged 18 to 37 processed by US Army induction boards 1940-45, 16 million were granted deferments. 15 million of these were on grounds of dependancy, though some hundred thousands (IIRC) were revoked in '44 when the infantry replacement crisis hit. When selective service was introduced in 1940, 75% of those who'd eventually serve in the Army were aged 25 or younger. Crudely put the young and the outcast were shipped off to war, but they did go almost to a man. Conscientious objectors came to 0.13% of Army inductees, fx




Enthusiasm also depended on the service entered. For example, Naval or Airforce entry was usually preferable to having to join the Infantry (and be a grunt sitting in the foxhole or being a tank crewman). I think it might have been in Neillands or Miller's book on the air war where I saw reference to tendency for US conscripts to want to join the more glamerous or technical branches of the military vs. the Bill Maudlin type fields. Later the Army would actually experience periodic shortages in replacement infantry and tank crews of which i think this was partly the cause. The irony of such was not lost on me......a nation of millions usually generates the automatic assumption that it's armed service or services would never suffer manpower shortages but you know what they say about making ASSumptions. [:D]
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DuckofTindalos
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by DuckofTindalos »

They make LogBoys ass look extra humongous...?
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Nikademus
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by Nikademus »

not as humongus as your bald fat head.....[:'(]
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DuckofTindalos
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by DuckofTindalos »

Well at least I have something useful in my mighty skull, unlike the oceans of blubber in your butt...
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Nikademus
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RE: Saving Private Ryan?

Post by Nikademus »

i don't need a hat in wintertime. pffffft.



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