A few questions about the rules

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)

There are 5 places in the sequence of play where naval units can move:
A. Naval movement phase.
A.1 From a port to a sea area.
A.2 From a sea area to a port.
A.3 Within a sea area, to a lower section box.
B. Return to base phases, from a sea area to a port.
C. Forced rebase due to the control of a port changing sides (e.g., overrun , conquest), from a port to a port.
D. Forced or voluntary return to base from a naval combat, from a sea area to a port.
E. Return to base by French naval units at sea during the formation of Vichy France, from a sea area to a port.

• Only A uses naval activities, and even then only when the major power owning the naval units took a Combined action.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit a naval unit to end its move in a sea area. All the others must end in a port.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move.

Wrong.
Loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move is allowed for a naval move within a sea area, to a lower section box.

Thanks.

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)

There are 5 places in the sequence of play where naval units can move:
A. Naval movement phase.
A.1 From a port to a sea area.
A.2 From a sea area to a port.
A.3 Within a sea area, to a lower section box.
B. Return to base phases, from a sea area to a port.
C. Forced rebase due to the control of a port changing sides (e.g., overrun , conquest), from a port to a port.
D. Forced or voluntary return to base from a naval combat, from a sea area to a port.
E. Return to base by French naval units at sea during the formation of Vichy France, from a sea area to a port.

• Only A uses naval activities, and even then only when the major power owning the naval units took a Combined action.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit a naval unit to end its move in a sea area. All the others must end in a port.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.
• Only A.1 permits dropping off naval units in a sea area (using Ctrl-Left-Click). However, this can only be done if there are sufficient naval activities available.
• A.1, A.2, B, C, and D all permit dropping off naval units in a port (using Ctrl-Left-Click). However, during A.1 this can only be done if there are sufficient naval activities available.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the caveat I have bolded, would not the restriction on sufficient naval activities also apply to component A.2 (e.g. during a naval move, a task force returning to Port A drops some ships off in Port B along the way)?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)

There are 5 places in the sequence of play where naval units can move:
A. Naval movement phase.
A.1 From a port to a sea area.
A.2 From a sea area to a port.
A.3 Within a sea area, to a lower section box.
B. Return to base phases, from a sea area to a port.
C. Forced rebase due to the control of a port changing sides (e.g., overrun , conquest), from a port to a port.
D. Forced or voluntary return to base from a naval combat, from a sea area to a port.
E. Return to base by French naval units at sea during the formation of Vichy France, from a sea area to a port.

• Only A uses naval activities, and even then only when the major power owning the naval units took a Combined action.
• Only A.1 and A.3 permit a naval unit to end its move in a sea area. All the others must end in a port.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit at sea at the end of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.
• Only A.1 permits dropping off naval units in a sea area (using Ctrl-Left-Click). However, this can only be done if there are sufficient naval activities available.
• A.1, A.2, B, C, and D all permit dropping off naval units in a port (using Ctrl-Left-Click). However, during A.1 this can only be done if there are sufficient naval activities available.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the caveat I have bolded, would not the restriction on sufficient naval activities also apply to component A.2 (e.g. during a naval move, a task force returning to Port A drops some ships off in Port B along the way)?

Yes. Thank you for the close reading.

By the way, I wrote that list off the top of my head - without looking at any of the rules or code. Hence the 2 mistakes (so far).

[paulderynck]

I suggest:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
If an interception becomes possible future movement by the units cannot be cancelled.
Resolving interceptions of naval movement has the following logic branches:
1. Interception not attempted
1.1 All units continue moving
1.2 All units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available.
2. Interception attempted
2.1 Interception failed
2.1.1 All units continue moving.
2.1.2 All units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
2.1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available.
2.2 Interception succeeded
2.2.1 All units stop in the sea area.
2.2.2 All units “fight through”.
2.2.2.1 All units destroyed in naval combat
2.2.2.2 Combat resolved to quiescence and some moving naval units survive.
2.2.2.2.1 All surviving units continue moving.
2.2.2.1.2 All surviving units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
2.2.2.1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.

Not sure if this is clear from the way it's written but in A.1 the cargo unit must be present at the start of the naval movement phase, it can't be transported to a port where naval units there are awaiting their A.1. Even if these naval units are starting in the same port that the cargo is now in, if the cargo arrives after the start of the naval movement phase they can only pick it up via A.2.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.

Not sure if this is clear from the way it's written but in A.1 the cargo unit must be present at the start of the naval movement phase, it can't be transported to a port where naval units there are awaiting their A.1. Even if these naval units are starting in the same port that the cargo is now in, if the cargo arrives after the start of the naval movement phase they can only pick it up via A.2.

Well, isn't the rule that the transport spends an extra movement point to pick up a cargo that didn't start the impulse in the port?

For me, that is simpler to understand than the 'rationale' about moving through the port to pick up the cargo.

[paulderynck]

Important point:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2.2.2.2 Combat resolved to quiescence and some moving naval units survive.
2.2.2.2.1 All surviving units continue moving.
2.2.2.1.2 All surviving units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
2.2.2.1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available

When units continue moving had they "counted up" to a higher sea box than the zero box, they are not required to count back down (like in returning to base) before they can go to an adjacent sea zone.

EXAMPLE: Some range 6, move 6 CAs leave Gibraltar and are intercepted in the West Med. They decide to fight through but choose the 3-box to do so. They have moved 1 range and 4 movement points. After the interception combat is resolved to quiescence, some continue moving. Whether they go to the East Med or the Italian Coast, they enter the zero box of those zones with 2 range and 5 movement points expended.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is why debugging naval movement has taken me 6 months.
===
Naval Movement Overview
(as of March 22, 2011)
• Only A.1 permits loading a unit in port at the start of a naval move.
• Only A.1, A.2, and B permit loading a unit in a port while “passing through”.

Not sure if this is clear from the way it's written but in A.1 the cargo unit must be present at the start of the naval movement phase, it can't be transported to a port where naval units there are awaiting their A.1. Even if these naval units are starting in the same port that the cargo is now in, if the cargo arrives after the start of the naval movement phase they can only pick it up via A.2.

Well, isn't the rule that the transport spends an extra movement point to pick up a cargo that didn't start the impulse in the port?

For me, that is simpler to understand than the 'rationale' about moving through the port to pick up the cargo.

Not exactly because it must spend two range and two movement points. One of each to go out to any adjacent sea zone and one of each to re-enter the port. In some cases this attempt can be intercepted before getting back into the port! So you can't just reduce the range and movement by 2 and merrily proceed outbound with the cargo onboard.

[Joseignacio]

Very interesting the last comments, about chits, loading units at sea and "not been required to count back down" after battle, when intercepted. 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Important point:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
2.2.2.2 Combat resolved to quiescence and some moving naval units survive.
2.2.2.2.1 All surviving units continue moving.
2.2.2.1.2 All surviving units stop in the sea area (during A.1, loading units is possible).
2.2.2.1.3. Some units stop and others continue moving. During A.1 this is only possible if sufficient naval activities are available

When units continue moving had they "counted up" to a higher sea box than the zero box, they are not required to count back down (like in returning to base) before they can go to an adjacent sea zone.

EXAMPLE: Some range 6, move 6 CAs leave Gibraltar and are intercepted in the West Med. They decide to fight through but choose the 3-box to do so. They have moved 1 range and 4 movement points. After the interception combat is resolved to quiescence, some continue moving. Whether they go to the East Med or the Italian Coast, they enter the zero box of those zones with 2 range and 5 movement points expended.

Along these same lines,

If a unit stops in a sea area - section box 1- to fight through, and then survives the combat, it can stop in the sea area either in section box 1, or can move to a different section box if it has sufficient movement points. E.g., for a unit with 6 MPS that is intercepted as soon as it leaves port: 1 MP to enter the sea area + 1 MP for stopping to fight through, leaves 4 MPs. It could then be placed as high as the 4 box. But it would have only used 1 range.

Correct? [This is how it is coded presently.]

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Along these same lines,

If a unit stops in a sea area - section box 1- to fight through, and then survives the combat, it can stop in the sea area either in section box 1, or can move to a different section box if it has sufficient movement points. E.g., for a unit with 6 MPS that is intercepted as soon as it leaves port: 1 MP to enter the sea area + 1 MP for stopping to fight through, leaves 4 MPs. It could then be placed as high as the 4 box. But it would have only used 1 range.

Correct? [This is how it is coded presently.]

Correct. range allowance is only decremented when you enter a different sea zone or a port.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

I have a pair of questions, I think applicable to both tabletop wif and MWIF.



1st, regarding City Based Volunteers. When they're first built, they're free and do not count against gearing. But do they count for gearing for future turn builds? Say on the first turn, I as Germany build no INF class units besides that free Vienna Mil. for Nov/Dec 39, can I build 2 inf class guys or only one?


2nd, if there are multiple attacks during an impulse who determines what order they are to be carried out in? This could have some impact where the Chinese warlords are concerned, or a lot if you want to see how possible retreats and breakthroughs from one attack might affect how you do things in the next one.

[michaelbaldur]

2nd, if there are multiple attacks during an impulse who determines what order they are to be carried out in? This could have some impact where the Chinese warlords are concerned, or a lot if you want to see how possible retreats and breakthroughs from one attack might affect how you do things in the next one.

you are right there are noting in the rules on who chooses.. IN what order to resolve the attacks ..

but I would assume it would be the attacker ...

[michaelbaldur]

2nd, if there are multiple attacks during an impulse who determines what order they are to be carried out in? This could have some impact where the Chinese warlords are concerned, or a lot if you want to see how possible retreats and breakthroughs from one attack might affect how you do things in the next one.

they are totally outside of gearing the first time they are build

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

I have a pair of questions, I think applicable to both tabletop wif and MWIF.



1st, regarding City Based Volunteers. When they're first built, they're free and do not count against gearing. But do they count for gearing for future turn builds? Say on the first turn, I as Germany build no INF class units besides that free Vienna Mil. for Nov/Dec 39, can I build 2 inf class guys or only one?


2nd, if there are multiple attacks during an impulse who determines what order they are to be carried out in? This could have some impact where the Chinese warlords are concerned, or a lot if you want to see how possible retreats and breakthroughs from one attack might affect how you do things in the next one.

Unless you can find a rule that specifically says CBV units do not count against gearing limits, they do.

MWIF determines which attacking major power has the most units involved in land attacks and then let's the player controlling that major power decide on the order of the land attacks.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

I have a pair of questions, I think applicable to both tabletop wif and MWIF.



1st, regarding City Based Volunteers. When they're first built, they're free and do not count against gearing. But do they count for gearing for future turn builds? Say on the first turn, I as Germany build no INF class units besides that free Vienna Mil. for Nov/Dec 39, can I build 2 inf class guys or only one?


2nd, if there are multiple attacks during an impulse who determines what order they are to be carried out in? This could have some impact where the Chinese warlords are concerned, or a lot if you want to see how possible retreats and breakthroughs from one attack might affect how you do things in the next one.

Unless you can find a rule that specifically says CBV units do not count against gearing limits, they do.

MWIF determines which attacking major power has the most units involved in land attacks and then let's the player controlling that major power decide on the order of the land attacks.

22.4.8 City based volunteers (AfA, AiF, LiF& PoliF option 67)
There are several units with the name of a city printed on their back in Africa Aflame, America in Flames, Leaders in Flames and Politics in Flames. These counters represent volunteers who fought or potentially would have fought for the major power whose background colour the counters share. As examples, Vlassov was a successful Soviet general who defected to the Germans after his capture, the SS recruited personnel from the occupied areas and Japan used some Chinese and potentially would have used some Indians or Siberians as well.
These units become available to the respective major power when their home city is controlled by it. During any production step while this city is controlled, that major power may place that unit onto the production circle as if built that turn. They are free the first time they are purchased and do not count for gearing limits. They arrive as reinforcements in their home city.
City based volunteers that arrive in cities in an aligned minor country, are units of that minor county. All other volunteers are major power units

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

I have a pair of questions, I think applicable to both tabletop wif and MWIF.



1st, regarding City Based Volunteers. When they're first built, they're free and do not count against gearing. But do they count for gearing for future turn builds? Say on the first turn, I as Germany build no INF class units besides that free Vienna Mil. for Nov/Dec 39, can I build 2 inf class guys or only one?


2nd, if there are multiple attacks during an impulse who determines what order they are to be carried out in? This could have some impact where the Chinese warlords are concerned, or a lot if you want to see how possible retreats and breakthroughs from one attack might affect how you do things in the next one.

2) The attacker decide the order of combat resolution.

Cut from RAW 11.16 Land combat
After you have finished any paradrops, your land units can attack enemy
land units they are adjacent to. Combat is not compulsory (except if you
are invading or paradropping).
The land combat sequence is:
1. declare all attacks, (the defender then announces whether any
notional units are to be ignored);
2. add defensive shore bombardment (option 38);
3. add offensive shore bombardment;
4. announce defensive HQ support (option 13);
5. announce offensive HQ support;
6. fl y and resolve ground support missions;
7. resolve HQ support;
8. the combats are then resolved one by one (attacker choosing the
order of combat resolution).

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Thanks guys

[gridley]

So here is the situation;

CW Controls the Italian Coast Sea Zone...No Italian air or Navy. Tirana can not trace a line of supply to a Primary supply source.

The CW wants to invade Albania.

Italian units would be out of supply in Albania.

My question is would notional units be out of supply as well?

Thanks for your help.

[composer99]

gridley: It is my understanding that, per the rules, notional units for aligned minor countries (such as Albania in WiF) are units of their own nationality.

So an Albanian notional unit remains in supply.