Price

Can the Blitzkrieg be stopped? Across the Dnepr: Second Edition revisits a classic on a new system. Created from the ground up as an expansion for SSG’s latest acclaimed game engine, Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets, the Second Edition of Across the Dnepr includes Areas of Operations, the latest AI programming and multiple Mystery Variants to keep gamers guessing. Also includes 3 free scenarios in addition to the Across the Dnepr mega-scenario: Operation Husky, Operation Konrad and Kirovograd
TargAK
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RE: Price

Post by TargAK »

ORIGINAL: Arckon

ORIGINAL: TARG
ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

This thread....

Image

How does this contribute to the discussion?

I have read this thread in it's entirety and I personally found it the most articulate post on this thread yet.


It seems diplomacy is falling apart as the SSG fanboi ops group is trying to create an incident on the Polish border in a bid for all out war!

How will the Poles respond to such aggressive and terrible behavior?

The Germans had the huge mortar "Thor"

The Poles have the even larger "yer mom im on" canon! (and by large I mean huge if ya know what I mean!!)

Your Mom is so stupid that She only changed your diapers once a month because it said on the box good for up to 20 pounds...BAAAAAAM!

Will this response from the brave Poles avert war or only lead to a World war?

Only time will tell...

Tune in next post for another episode of "As the forum belches"

"Duh duh duuuuh!
TheWombat_matrixforum
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RE: Price

Post by TheWombat_matrixforum »

I have every HPS game every made, I'm pretty sure, and I do like them. One thing I really like about the SSG games, though, is that you can actually finish them. Budapest, for example, is a huge, long campaign in the HPS version, and takes FOREVER to play; some of the other games with custom scenarios are over 300 turns--and each turn can take an eternity. It's great for the way I play them--I play both sides, usually, old school solitaire style--but I can honestly say I've never finished one of those HPS campaigns either PBEM or solo. They're just too big and long.

The SSG games, while you don't get quite as much variety of scenarios maybe, or get to move around companies and battalions all the time, allow you to finish whole battles quite handily. It'll take a while if you do it right, but you can finish. And the turn/time scale means they're more fluid feeling, because you appear to cover more ground/turn. And the AI tends to do a great job of making it challenging.

Both systems have their merits, but I'm not at all sure they're that directly comparable. To me, they are both very different (but good) wargaming experiences.
ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Jeffreys, see this link http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/noname.html nobody says that you buy in HPS site, if you want a direct support can pay more if not you have the other option [;)] and content... well, HPS Budapest have all the variants included in the great job made in the custom map for Kharkov and AtD2 plus other campaigns and variants and dont talk about Volcanoman job that made a full new OOB with changes the way to play more realistic for me, is like have 2 games in one.

PD: Dragon Age is another example like AtD2 but i can give more examples where expansion are under 20 euros.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Price

Post by Erik Rutins »

Ok, that's enough everyone. Constructive criticism is always accepted here, but we seem to be heading towards personal attacks and bashing. If you want to discuss, that's fine, but keep it civil.

I think we and SSG have clearly explained what happened with the discount. We are human and I think some benefit of the doubt would be warranted as we have both always done the best we could to make our customers happy. The ATD 2 price was as low as we could make it and the new free Kharkov update with the additional content, which I guess has been lost a bit in this discussion, was our effort to make you all a bit happier.
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Hexagon
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RE: Price

Post by Hexagon »

Of course "Battles in" and PzC arent the same type of game but they are close in some parts like conflict cover and the idea of battle/campaign. For me PzC are more tactical than Bi because you can command more units in a bigger map at company scale (in Tobruk is smaller) or Btl scale VS the regimental scale used in Bi. I dont play the full campaigns in HPS games (dont have time enough) but i can play many of the episodes of the campaign (commanding one or the armies or army korps or can play the campaign in a team game) and even can play tactical episodes (like the Stalingrad scen called "Breakout of Group Zhuravlev" one of my favourite scens) or small episodes (like you can find in Tobruk covering Crusader) in Bi you play the full campaign/battle and dont have more options apart variants... is this bad??? no, but for me this limitation in SSG game decrease for me the value of the game, you know, different wargame players different ideas.

For me the perfect wargame dont exist, comparing SSG system with HPS system can say that dont like supply system in HPS games, prefer SSG specially for units because they need loss supply to be isolated the famous system of bullets (one of the main problem in HPS games) but i prefer the HPS system covering unit fatigue some missing in Bi (in HPS units loss quality when fight and have losses or fatige) and the AI in HPS games is near to null, they work more in AI in the last times but SSG are superior BUT i prefer play VS humans because they are better (or at least more "human" than an AI) as the best AI that you can have and in both games dont like the Airpower system, i like the TOAW version where you have airfields and air units as other counter unit.

What i can say??? well, for me AtD2 is overpriced and dont buy it now, in future with a discount i could buy it, isnt a question of have the money, is a question of pay near the same for an add-on that for the basic game, i understand the expansion system in other way in the price question.

PD: could be interesting do a votation to see what think people about this, is AtD2 overpriced??? yes, no, cheeper than i expect [;)] but is better dont do it.

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e_barkmann
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RE: Price

Post by e_barkmann »

Starting to sound like a broken record mate.

cheers
Scourge of War multiplayer group

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo
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henri51
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RE: Price

Post by henri51 »

Since we are talking about comparisons between HPS Pz Campaigns and SSG, I have most of the games of both sides, and as I said earlier, I have never finished (or in some cases never played) most of them.

I went back and loaded up HPS Smolensk, and although I liked and played the game way back when, it reminded me of what I didn't like: the map is 300 hexes long and 270 turns long [X(], which is about 4 times AtD2 in both time and space. In addition, each unit can fire up to 4 times (but there is a way to get them to fire all at once), and the units are mostly company size. I changed my computer a few times since I played it (same goes for AtD), so I don't remember how far I got in the game.

So anyway, although both games (Smolensk and AtD2) cover the same territory and the same battles, they are very different games. But clearly players with limited time should get more from AtD, although each move should take an hour or more (which means 20 hours or more of gameplay).

Having now paid for both Kharkov and AtD2, I have said that I think the combined price is too steep, but hey - I am not the one who made the decision, so although I agree that anyone is entitled to voice his frustration or opinion about that, I think I have said enough about that and that I will let Matrix and SSG live with their business decisions. I sympathize with the few who bought Kharkov based on the "promise" that AtD2 would be discounted, but anyone who believes advertisement should remember the adage "buyer beware", or even "vis victae" [:'(]

Anyway I will now go start another thread about how the AI did in my overnight AI vs AI game.[8D]

Henri
DBeves
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RE: Price

Post by DBeves »

Jalla

If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov).

So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this -
a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount
b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price

None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it

I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought.

Pay and play or don't pay and leave.

I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now.

Nighty night peeps.

Yes well - who made you god of posting ? If you dont like the discussion then dont read it - dont tell others what they should post about. If people are in here complaining about the price and saying its too expensive for them to buy - that is valid criticism. The fact that people are here saying they cant justify the expenditure is entirely the point isnt it ? To me, one person buying at 35 is worse then two buying at 25 . That to me is something matrix and ssg would want to know. If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance..
DBeves
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RE: Price

Post by DBeves »

ORIGINAL: jeffreys

[font="Times New Roman"]Some of the earlier posts in this thread implied that the poster(s) felt that HPS games were a bargain compared to Kharkov/Across the Dneper. Consequently I took a look at the HPS website and found that HPS prices each battle at $50 ($49.95 to be exact). So to get their Kharkov and Smolensk games would would cost $100 compared to $90 for the SSG version. In addition SSG includes Husky and Konrad (which would bring the total HPS price up to $200 for all four) and Kirovagrad which doesn't appear to be available from SSG. Even if it is possible, as one poster stated, to find these games for $30 if you know where to look (which I don't) that's still $120 for 4 HPS battles compared to $90 for 5 SSG battles. I don't mean to imply that HPS games are overpriced, since they appear to me to be good games and well worth the money. My point is that the SSG games are priced right in line with the other comparable products on the market (even when the HPS games are heavily discounted), and in fact the SSG games are something of a bargain. [/font]
for 5 SSG battles.

NWS Store sells all HPS titles for 29.99 - so thats three HPS titles for 2 ssg - not that it partticularly matters - but you are trying to count in freely available user created content in your calculation. SSG produced Karkhov and ATD - not the other scenarios. that makes SSG games dealing with the same subject 50 % more expensive.

I do however entirley agree that they are two different games. HPS games make me want to buy a book given the sheer amount of detail in them. SSG games whilst good - dont give me that same feeling. thats either good or bad depending on how much commitment I looking for.
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Price

Post by JudgeDredd »

ORIGINAL: DBeves
Jalla

If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov).

So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this -
a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount
b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price

None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it

I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought.

Pay and play or don't pay and leave.

I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now.

Nighty night peeps.

Yes well - who made you god of posting ? If you dont like the discussion then dont read it - dont tell others what they should post about. If people are in here complaining about the price and saying its too expensive for them to buy - that is valid criticism. The fact that people are here saying they cant justify the expenditure is entirely the point isnt it ? To me, one person buying at 35 is worse then two buying at 25 . That to me is something matrix and ssg would want to know. If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance..
Well - I wasn't going to post again, but it appears you were determined to bring me out of retirement.

So I made a post and you choose to reply based on the two sentences "Pay and play or don't play and leave" and "...is just plain boring now"? You completely disregarded the rest of my post which made more sense (with regard to the post I was responding to) than some other posts on here...AND you choose to ignore posts with even lesser content on this thread and focus on mine? WoW! [&o]
If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance..
So is freedom of speech is only acceptable if it adheres to your point of view?....right.[8|]
Alba gu' brath
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RE: Price

Post by jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com »

[font="Times New Roman"]DBeves:

I would respectfully disagree. The scenarios included under the Kharkov 2.0 patch are "official" Kharkov scenarios that are presented as being up to SSG's standards are endorsed by SSG as a part of the game. They are provided automatically when you download the patch and are supported by SSG just like any other part of the game. I do sincerely thank those wonderful dedicated volunteers who did such a great job in producing Kirovagrad and Konrad (I believe Husky was produced in house, please correct me if I'm wrong), but no matter who produced them they were finalized and released under the auspices of SSG as a part of Kharkov.

This is different from Soltsy which is a very nice scenario, but makes no claim of being official or of having to meet the standards of SSG's official scenarios. The other battles are provided to me by SSG as part of the game and are part of the value that I receive when I purchase the game. They are in fact of substanltial value to me, and I feel they should certainly be included in any price comparison or purchase decision.

As an aside, I also read somewhere that some of the HPS scenarios are user produced, which would be a fine thing if true. Do you know if that is accurate?

In any case to get the same battles included in Kharkov and Across the Dneper for $90 you would have to spend $120 on HPS games and would still not have Kirovagrad. For me that makes the SSG games a better deal. Note though, that I do not mean this as a criticism of the HPS games which look to me as if they also provide excellent value for the money. In fact as a result of this discussion I am considering purchasing some of them, so my thanks to all those who have provided information about them.
[/font]
All My Best,

Jeff Sutro
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TheHellPatrol
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RE: Price

Post by TheHellPatrol »

I Haven't stopped by here for awhile but i had to say IMHO this release was a bargain! I know the amount of work it took because i played ATD 1 to death...Brilliant! I may have felt let down in the past but this is real masterpiece enhanced/advanced and the extra scenarios are simply awesome, and i don't wan't to digress to other threads but i appreciate the realism re:flags/nationalism....Bravo!
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

TargAK
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RE: Price

Post by TargAK »

ORIGINAL: jeffreys

[font="Times New Roman"]DBeves:

I would respectfully disagree. The scenarios included under the Kharkov 2.0 patch are "official" Kharkov scenarios that are presented as being up to SSG's standards are endorsed by SSG as a part of the game. They are provided automatically when you download the patch and are supported by SSG just like any other part of the game. I do sincerely thank those wonderful dedicated volunteers who did such a great job in producing Kirovagrad and Konrad (I believe Husky was produced in house, please correct me if I'm wrong), but no matter who produced them they were finalized and released under the auspices of SSG as a part of Kharkov.

This is different from Soltsy which is a very nice scenario, but makes no claim of being official or of having to meet the standards of SSG's official scenarios. The other battles are provided to me by SSG as part of the game and are part of the value that I receive when I purchase the game. They are in fact of substanltial value to me, and I feel they should certainly be included in any price comparison or purchase decision.

As an aside, I also read somewhere that some of the HPS scenarios are user produced, which would be a fine thing if true. Do you know if that is accurate?

In any case to get the same battles included in Kharkov and Across the Dneper for $90 you would have to spend $120 on HPS games and would still not have Kirovagrad. For me that makes the SSG games a better deal. Note though, that I do not mean this as a criticism of the HPS games which look to me as if they also provide excellent value for the money. In fact as a result of this discussion I am considering purchasing some of them, so my thanks to all those who have provided information about them.
[/font]



HPS updates the engine for free on older titles,

This changes the math for customers that have purchased previous titles.

Kharkov= 60.00 physical shipment
ATD2= 50.00 "" "" "'
ATD1= 25.00 Digital DL only
Husky BiI = 60.00 Physical shipment
Total= 185.00

the 30.00 HPS price is for the physical disc as no Digital DL is offered.


Factor in that HPS Smolensk main game is 171 turns compared to Kharkov's 16 and the difference in map size the apples to apples comparison is not the same.

HPS and SSG both share space on my hard drives and I enjoy both equaly (if pushed SSG would be my favorite).

The main weakness of SSG titles is the fixed screen size and older titles becoming obsolete once a new engine comes out. If these two things were

changed than SSG would be almost perfect [:)]
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Fred98
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RE: Price

Post by Fred98 »

ORIGINAL: TARG
The main weakness of SSG titles is..........and older titles becoming obsolete once a new engine comes out.

If these two things were changed than SSG would be almost perfect [:)]

This thing has been fixed.

"Kharkov" is the engine. Other scenarios will follow. If the "Kharkov" engine is updated all following scenarios afterwards are automatically updated.

Players have been listened to and been heard.

-



DBeves
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RE: Price

Post by DBeves »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: DBeves
Jalla

If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov).

So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this -
a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount
b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price

None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it

I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought.

Pay and play or don't pay and leave.

I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now.

Nighty night peeps.

Yes well - who made you god of posting ? If you dont like the discussion then dont read it - dont tell others what they should post about. If people are in here complaining about the price and saying its too expensive for them to buy - that is valid criticism. The fact that people are here saying they cant justify the expenditure is entirely the point isnt it ? To me, one person buying at 35 is worse then two buying at 25 . That to me is something matrix and ssg would want to know. If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance..
Well - I wasn't going to post again, but it appears you were determined to bring me out of retirement.

So I made a post and you choose to reply based on the two sentences "Pay and play or don't play and leave" and "...is just plain boring now"? You completely disregarded the rest of my post which made more sense (with regard to the post I was responding to) than some other posts on here...AND you choose to ignore posts with even lesser content on this thread and focus on mine? WoW! [&o]
If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance..
So is freedom of speech is only acceptable if it adheres to your point of view?....right.[8|]


No - it was your use of the word "Whining" that made me respond to your post in particular actually. I didnt say you coudnt respond did I? Merely that in a post complaining about the price, which you dont have a problem with and in a thread you yourself said was "Whining" WHY you would want to post - I mean no one has you tied to your computer forcing you to read it are they.
DBeves
Posts: 401
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RE: Price

Post by DBeves »

ORIGINAL: jeffreys

[font="Times New Roman"]DBeves:

I would respectfully disagree. The scenarios included under the Kharkov 2.0 patch are "official" Kharkov scenarios that are presented as being up to SSG's standards are endorsed by SSG as a part of the game. They are provided automatically when you download the patch and are supported by SSG just like any other part of the game. I do sincerely thank those wonderful dedicated volunteers who did such a great job in producing Kirovagrad and Konrad (I believe Husky was produced in house, please correct me if I'm wrong), but no matter who produced them they were finalized and released under the auspices of SSG as a part of Kharkov.

This is different from Soltsy which is a very nice scenario, but makes no claim of being official or of having to meet the standards of SSG's official scenarios. The other battles are provided to me by SSG as part of the game and are part of the value that I receive when I purchase the game. They are in fact of substanltial value to me, and I feel they should certainly be included in any price comparison or purchase decision.

As an aside, I also read somewhere that some of the HPS scenarios are user produced, which would be a fine thing if true. Do you know if that is accurate?

In any case to get the same battles included in Kharkov and Across the Dneper for $90 you would have to spend $120 on HPS games and would still not have Kirovagrad. For me that makes the SSG games a better deal. Note though, that I do not mean this as a criticism of the HPS games which look to me as if they also provide excellent value for the money. In fact as a result of this discussion I am considering purchasing some of them, so my thanks to all those who have provided information about them.
[/font]

Look, some of this comes down to your view of the two engines .. I prefer the HPS titles - but still like the SSG games. My original post said I bought it so that much is obvious - and I dont regard it as "Whining" merely as making a point. IIRC when the original ATD was released as an add on form korsun it was priced as an add on. My original surprise at the price was based on that - not being able to see what was different between the two situations apart from a decision to make it more expensive.

Its a good game and if I ever get round to playing it I suspect I will get value for money out of it - just because I raised and issue about the price doesnt mean to say I dont like the game or value its content. The engine has some missing elements that make it have less appeal than HPS games but I still like it. And not least because it offers a campaign I can fifnish in a reasonable amount of time.

At the end of the day - Having added up all the turn lengths in just the HPS titles I own - even if I manage to play a turn a day I have enough content to last me till I retire.
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Price

Post by JudgeDredd »

ORIGINAL: DBeves
No - it was your use of the word "Whining" that made me respond to your post in particular actually. I didnt say you coudnt respond did I? Merely that in a post complaining about the price, which you dont have a problem with and in a thread you yourself said was "Whining" WHY you would want to post - I mean no one has you tied to your computer forcing you to read it are they.
ok [&o]
Alba gu' brath
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RE: Price

Post by jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com »

and I dont regard it as "Whining" merely as making a point

[font="Times New Roman"]DBeves:

I apologize if I implied that you were whining. I did not intend to do so.
[/font]
All My Best,

Jeff Sutro
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Price

Post by JudgeDredd »

I think you may be off the hook there jeffreys. I'm pretty sure he was referring to my post...even though my post had nothing to do with him.
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RE: Price

Post by parusski »

WHINE WHINE WHINE, ARGUE ARGUE ARGUE, MISUNDERSTANDINGS.

GOD this is getting to be boring, and really pointless.
"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman
DBeves
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RE: Price

Post by DBeves »

ORIGINAL: parusski

WHINE WHINE WHINE, ARGUE ARGUE ARGUE, MISUNDERSTANDINGS.

GOD this is getting to be boring, and really pointless.


Yes... almost as pointless as reading and posting in a thread you think is pointless ...
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