"Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

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briantopp
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by briantopp »

ORIGINAL: Panama

ORIGINAL: briantopp
Sure thing -- most useful info is: number of Soviet army; unit name & size (typically a tank brigade); key elements of TO&E; date the unit arrives

Ok, there will be two tank corp, one mechanized corp and a plethora of separate brigades (36+?) equiped partially or entirely with Matildas, Valentines, Lees, Grants and, interestingly, Matildas that the Soviets had equiped with the 76.2mm tank cannon. The Germans called it Matilda MKIIe.

Wow that's a surprisingly large number of brigades
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sPzAbt653
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by sPzAbt653 »

"The new 50mm antitank gun, intended to replace the woefully inadequate 37mm, had begun to come off the assembly line in greater numbers but was still the exception in ordinary German infantry units."

That quote seems a little misleading, as the 50mm was not new by that time. It may have been the exception in ordinary units, but then we have to debate what an 'ordinary' unit was. Production numbers can be found here:

http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/GermWeapProd.html#monthly

By the time of the scenario there were almost 2,000 made. Some had to be present on the Russian Front, I assume. Generally 18 total AT guns organic to each division, plus another 24 in the Divisional AT Abt. The 37's were certainly predominant in numbers early on. What do you think about the Infantry Divisions starting the scenario with 27/27 37's, 6/15 50's, 0/12 75's ?

The 37mm production can stop at the beginning of 42, and the 75's can start at that time, while the 50's can stay thru out.

A further distinction between the stop gap 75mm PAK 97/38 and the very good 75mm PAK 40 could be made by giving Inf Div's 0/12 of each at start, with the 97/38 production running from 1-42 to 6-42, and the PAK 40 from 6-42 to the end. Maybe?
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Panama
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by Panama »

Ordinary meaning the line infantry divisions as opposed to the mobile units.

New meaning not as old as the 37mm [:D]

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Panama
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by Panama »

Here are the ones most likely part of your OOB. Since I couldn't open the scenario with TOAWIII Scenario Viewer I couldn't know for certain without going through the entire OOB in the game. That would have been lots of fun. [:D]

All the Valentines had the 2pdr gun. TB = Tank Brigade. MMD = Moscow Military District.

10th Tank Corps. Formed 19 April 1942 MMD. 7 July 1942 first action with: 178th Tank Brigade: 24 KV and 16 T-60. 183rd Tank Brigade: 30 Matilda II and 16 T-60. 186th Tank Brigade: 30 Matilda II and 16 T-60. (actually the total for the corps was 24 KV, 60 Matilda II, 48 T-60. I split the Matilda and T-60 evenly between the brigades that had them) The Matildas were never replaced as they were lost.

11th Tank Corps. Formed 19 May 1942 MMD. June 1942 when assigned to 5th Army: 53rd Brigade: 15 KV, 16 Matilda II, 29 T-60. 59th Tank Brigade: 42 Matilda II, 10 T-60. 160th Tank Brigade, Matilda II and T-60 but no reliable numbers. Again, the Matildas were replace with T-34 as the campaign wore on.

5th Mechanized Corps. Formed September to 2 November 1942 MMD from the 22nd Tank Corps staff. First action December 42, Stalingrad offensive with: All Matilda II in place of T-34 and all Valentine MKIII as the light tanks.

12th (was 66th TB), 13th (was 67th TB), 14th (was 174th TB) Guards Tank Brigades of the 4th Guards Tank Corps (was 17th Tank Corps) 3 January 1943. Rebuilt with 2/3 T-34, 1/3 Valentines. By the end of 1943 entirely equipped with T-34.

23rd Guards TB formed from 6th Guards TB (there were two same named units from 5 March 1942 until 22 Feb 1943) 22 Feb 1943. This 'second' 6th Guards TB was equipped with Matilda II instead of T-34 from it's formation and still had some left when it became 23 Guards TB. Was in 16th Army at the time of it's name change but had supported various armies through it's existance which is pretty true of all the multitude of separate Soviet units.

43rd Guards TB formed 10 April 1943 from 145th TB in MMD. 19 M3 Stuarts probably received during the 145th TB rebuilding in MMD after getting beat up in September 1942.

36th, 37th, 38th TB. Evacuated from Kharkov before fully formed (several TB like this). Completed forming in MMD April 1942. Each with 10 Matilda IIe (76.2mm gun), 20 Valentine MK III, 20 T-60. First two TB were destroyed in sW Front by early summer 1942. 38th had all SOviet tanks by summer 1943.

15th TB. Formed September 1941. Equipped entirely with M3 Stuarts for light tanks and M3 Grants for medium tanks in September 1942 (perhaps as early as April) until refitted in volga MD March 1943.

64th TB. Finished forming in MMD by April 1942. Sent to 21st Tank Corps. Matildas for mediums.Valentines and T-60 for light. Since it was destroyed at Izyum who knows when the Lend Lease would have been replaced.

92nd TB. Finished forming in MMD June 1942. Went to 31st Army in JUly. Equipped with M3 Grants/Lees until early 1943.

101st TB. Finished forming at Gorkiy June 1942. Equipped with M3 tanks. Probably both flavors. Went to 31st Army. Fought as infantry support brigade in Western and Kalinin Fronts. Refitted with T-34 late spring 1943.

102nd TB. Formed at Stalingrad March 1942. Went to 4th Tank Corps. 7 KV, 30 Matilda II, 15-20 T-60. Went into action at Voronezh June 1942. October 1942 refitted with T-34.

108th TB. Formed near Moscow February 1942 from 108th Tank Div. Went to 50th Army. Equipped entirely with Matilda II for mediums and Valentines for light. Was refitted with T-34 probably February 1943.

The unfortunate 114th TB. Destroyed and rebuilt twice between May and September. Formed in MMD March 1942. Light tanks were M3 Stuarts. After the last smashing was rebuilt with T-34 in October 1942.

120th TB. Finished forming in Volga MD June 1942. Went to 20th Army Western Front. Equipped with M3 Grants as mediums and Valentines as light until April 1943.

145th TB.(see 43rd Guards above) Formed in August 1941 from 104th Tank Div. Refit MMD February 1942. Went to Western Front. US M3 Medium tanks until November 1942. Got banged up around Rzhev and rebuilt with KV and T-34 plus some M3.

154th TB. Finished forming Volga MD June 1942. Western and Kalinin Front as support brigade. US M3 Medium and light tanks. Lend Lease was replaced by T-34 my late 1942.

167th TB. Finsihed forming MMD June 1942. Went to 13th Tank Corps. Matildas as medium, Valentines as light.

192nd TB. Formed in MMD March 1942. M3 medium (probably Grants) and M3 light. Probably went to 61st or 40th Army but in general was infantry support for various formations. Didn't refit with Soviet armor until about October 1943.

202nd TB. Finished forming in MMD April 1942. Went to 48th Army. Matilda II and Valentines. 19th Tank Corps by January 1943. May 1943 refit with all Soviet equipment.
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BigDuke66
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by BigDuke66 »

ORIGINAL: briantopp
8th: it does seem clear from the literature that 8-pz was slated to be redeployed to AGC and then was held back to deal with the pressure on AGN to which you refer. Thus the victory point penalty for deploying it. I think this is accurate chrome. But I like the idea of adding the 22-pz and 23-pz as additional theater option redeployments (perhaps with a slightly lighter VP penalty?) as a further game-balancing measure and to give the scenario more variability and more options.
Yes as TO would also be good but as said I think the HG Süd can handle their theater surely without them so a higher VP penalty doesn't seem appropriate.
ORIGINAL: briantopp
10th: arguably a determined Moscow-first strategy would have kept this unit in theater. Maybe the thing to do is charge a VP penalty for NOT withdrawing it -- and leave it up to the player through another theater option (say, a 5VP penalty for not withdrawing it -- "Rommel is very disappointed"). There is a similar issue with the luftwaffe which diverted a fair bit of its Russian front strength to the med during some of this scenario.
I like the idea for a VP penalty when not withdrawing it, question would be where to set the deadline, in April 42 when it was sent to France for R&R or in November 42 when it was sent to Africa?
ORIGINAL: briantopp
Artillery: it's kind of the same case here. A truly determined Moscow-first strategy means less priority on both Leningrad and Sevastopol. The proposal below to change the unit symbol and to make these units much more ponderous might fit. Again they could go into the "reserve" pool and perhaps be available in return for a small VP penalty, to charge the Axis player for not pursuing the other sieges.
The changes that sPzAbt653 proposes and the VP penalty for using them are both great ideas, I would go for it this way.
ORIGINAL: briantopp
I completed another run-through of this scenario last night. My conclusion is that the play balance in this build is weighed towards the Axis, and that the Soviets need to be buttressed especially from Dec.41 forward. What I'm thinking of doing is assigning more complete (i.e. closer to say 90%-95%) TO&Es to Soviet reinforcements, and gradually stepping up Soviet supply to reflect gradually more effective Soviet logistics. So the Soviet supply centres, which are 100-point centres, could go to say 120 in dec 41; to 140 in Dec. 42; and to perhaps 160 in Dec 43 -- roughly corresponding to the increasingly formidable historical Soviet winter offensives. Since you're doing a playthrough, how do you find the balance and do you think this might make the scenario more challenging?
Question should the Soviet be tuned up or the Axis tuned down.
Just from a quick look I would say that especially the units from Panzergruppe 2 have a much too high supply stock at the start considering that their offensive is already running.
I'm currently going thru the deployment and after that I'll check the reinforcements, just as small ahead info I can say that the 250(Spanish) shouldn't be in as they were most of the time off-map North of the Ilmensee and units that were busy in the backward area like the SS Cav. Brig. should maybe be in garrison mode till the Russian winter offensive to prohibit unrealistic frontline use.

I really wonder if those numbers are right, on the equipment list for the complete army in the east(22.6.1941) I see:
-22 divisions with French Pak
-10 divisions with less Pak than normal
-2 divisions with French Pak & without PzJ.Abt.
-9 divisions without PzJ.Abt.
So 41 division with foreign equipment and/or less than normal Pak amount.
Did some maybe go to Hungary, Romania or Italy?
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by SMK-at-work »

I've never heard of Matildas being up gunned with Russian 76's - is there an online source for that?
Ta
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
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Panama
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

I've never heard of Matildas being up gunned with Russian 76's - is there an online source for that?
Ta

Nope. Just what Mr. Sharp has in his book. There are a few people whom I trust regarding the East Front. Charles Sharp is one of them. And since he found reference to them in German intelligence I am doubly confident in his report.

It doesn't surprise me that the Soviets would try to do this with a few Matildas since they regarded them as being undergunned. They also tried to remove the side skirts on some because mud and snow got caught up in them making the tank even slower than it was.
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BigDuke66
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by BigDuke66 »

I read they tried it but the 76mm gun was too big for the small turret. Could it be a typo and he means the Russian 45mm, I read they were used?

Regarding the TO for the PzDs, I wonder if they get the new regiments when the TO is pulled after the change-out of regiments took place.
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Panama
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by Panama »

That's why there were only a few of them. If it had been a better fit I'm sure it would have become common. I just thought it was an interesting item.
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BigDuke66
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by BigDuke66 »

Sure but if there were just "few" I think it can be ignored for this scenario, especially in the light of the over 1084 Matildas delivered.
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Panama
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by Panama »

There were only a few Ferdinands. Yet because they were unique they are in pretty much every Kursk scenario even though they made very little difference in the battle at all.

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Just thought I would point out that one of many unique things about the war.
briantopp
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by briantopp »

I like including stuff like that (retrofit matildas), if it can be converted into toaw terms reasonably. It's interesting to see how the units perform and the layers of detail keep thingscfrom getting stale.

Re the whole lend-lease issue: trick here is to do a reconciliation with the glantz oob. I might fudge things a little to get some of the lendlease units in. Soviets seem in need of some play balance help in 42
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Panama
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by Panama »

Another thing about the East Front is all of the conflicting information. Even with the release of previously unaccessible information there is still much confusion. Mainly because the whole afair was mass confusion. I think that's one of the things that keeps me there. [;)]
briantopp
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by briantopp »

Lots of interesting detail and feedback to play with in the discussion so far many thanks. Here's a new build if you feel like poking at it, with a bunch of tweaks:

- 22-panzer and 23-panzer are available to be transfered from AGS through theatre options, in April 1942 (this avail date basically for play-balance purposes). My story is AGS needs them until then -- and not afterwards, since "Blau" does not proceed.

- "Dora", "Thor" and "Odin" go into emergency reserve available for small VP penalties, and are reset as heavy artillery with no transport assets.

- Axis will pay a VP penalty if 10-panzer is not disbanded in late April 1942 (and Rommel will be very unhappy).

- 239-infanterie is disbanded early in the game. The unit history is sort of funny about it. Basically OKH disbanded this unit because it was taking too many casualities and because of the "excessive age of the men".

- A small but mighty series of Soviet tank brigades are feathered in between February and September 1942 with British or American lend-lease equipment (identified as "Ukll" or "USll" in the formation identifier). The M3Grant/Lee units seem fairly strong.

- I'm not sure what to do with the infantry AT equipment debate above, so have punted for now.

- Soviet PO and deployments are tweaked in a number of ways.

In my latest playtest (elmer-to-elmer, testing for playbalance within the framework of the orders both sides have), the Axis took Moscow and set up a defense efficiently between turns 1 and 50; a see-saw battle ensued between turns 50 and 100 with no fundamental change; and then the Soviets overwhelmed the Axis and drove them back to their supply centres on the western edge of the map between turns 100 and 150 or so. That seems about right at first look (similar to how "Blau" worked out over the same period). Some Manstein-level smart play should be required from the Axis side to avoid this outcome, given the rising power of Soviet production relative to Axis resources. In light of this playtest I've tweaked the Soviet PO to try to get it to play a little more aggressively in the mid-game.

- Messing with the OOB messes up many events in the editor, which then need to be fixed. Hopefully I've corrected all of them. I've read the scenario dump carefully but at a certain point it all glazes together.



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BigDuke66
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by BigDuke66 »

If you want to setup the storyline in the way that 22nd & 23rd are at AGS doing their jobs(22nd conquering Kerch peninsula finished on 21st Mai & 23rd stopping Soviet attacks on Charkow finished on 28th Mai) than an even later date seems right, how about June 42 and also the units should come in with a lowered inventory.

I worked myself now thru the complete scenario so please check these files regarding initial deployment, altogether I was a bit nitpicking but I thought the shape of the front should come more out:
-TOAW save file where I move all units into position, note that corps/armies and their assets are only moved together for the sake of overview, of course the assets should be spread out as need but the HQ location seems OK were I placed them.
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online. ... 431.48.sal

-Here an excel file where I list the locations but also notes regarding the turn a unit should arrive but most important the OOB for the 2.10.1941 the start of Operation Taifun, the second link is for a PDF version of the excel file.
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online. ... .1941.xlsx
http://www.w7l1p4dc2.homepage.t-online. ... 0.1941.pdf

That's all for the initial setup, my next post handles the reinforcements coming in and units that should be erased or modified.
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BigDuke66
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by BigDuke66 »

Assuming that in almost all cases the arrival date of reinforcements isn't influenced by where the next summer offensive takes places I worked thru them and some dates seem to need correction, a list them all unless they hit the same month so Brian can decided where it's useful and where not the change it:
-68.ID(23K/9A) 8.8.42=should arrive March 42
-337.ID(6K/3PG) 18.11.42=should arrive 29.10.42
-291.ID(6K/3PG) 21.11.42=should arrive December 42
-331.ID(8k/9A) 28.2.42=should arrive March 42
-93.ID(27K/9A) 13.5.42=should arrive 27.2.43
-340.ID(27K/9A) 1.8.42=should arrive 7.-10.7.42
-72.ID(9K/4A) 12.9.42=should arrive 25.8.42
-218.ID(59K/4A) 25.2.42=should arrive March 42
-342.ID(59K/4A) 25.2.42=should arrive March 42
-377.ID(59K/4A) 23.5.42=should arrive June 42
-8.JäD(59K/4A) 25.2.42=should arrive 1.7.42
-3.GebD(2. Armee) 24.10.42=should arrive November 42
-383.ID(13K/2A) 11.4.42=should arrive July 42
-387.ID(13K/2A) 11.4.42=should arrive June 42
-24.PzD(47K/2PG) 23.5.42=should arrive July 42
-20.m.ID(48K/2PG) 9.12.42=should arrive 24.11.42
-Kav.Reg.Mitte(2 Panzergruppe) 13.6.42=should arrive 27.1.43
-2.Lw.FD(Luftwaffe) 17.10.42=should arrive November 42
-3.Lw.FD(Luftwaffe) 17.10.42=should arrive November 42
-4.Lw.FD(Luftwaffe) 17.10.42=should arrive November 42
-81.ID(39K/2PG) 10.12.41=should arrive 9.1.42
-205.ID(39K/2PG) 20.12.41=should arrive March 42
-328.ID(39K/2PG) 21.1.42=should arrive July 42
-246.ID(39K/2PG) 28.1.42=should arrive August 42
-211.ID(55K/2PG) 24.12.42=should arrive 12.1.42
-5.JäD(55K/2PG) 14.1.42=should arrive July 42
-88.ID(55K/2PG) 17.1.42=should arrive February 42
-329.ID(55K/2PG) 24.1.42=should arrive March 42
-330.ID(55K/2PG) 28.1.42=should arrive February 42
-LwD Meindl(2 Panzergruppe) 8.10.-19.11.42=should arrive March 42
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BigDuke66
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by BigDuke66 »

And finally the units that should be erased or modified:
Erase:
-250.ID(only North of Lake Ilmen)
-403.SD(Never saw combat)
-201.SD(Never saw combat)
-286.SD(Never saw combat)
-203.SD(Never saw combat)
-442zbV(I think that was enever a really division just the staff)
-209.ID(was disband 1940)
-Luftwaffen-Division Meindl 21st Regiment(there was never a 21st Regiment)
-7 Fliegerdivision(no regiment xcept 1st saw action in Russia and the 1st just made rear area duty)

Modify:
-Hungarian 102. & 105. aren't not Division but Brigades at least in 41, I think they get Light Divisions but I coudn't track down when this happens.
-2 Panzergruppe is split, one has HQ and some aasets and the other no HQ and a lot assets, should that be so?
-35. Korps is 2x in the game one at 11,101 and one at 10,91, divisions are right except 1. Kavallerie-Division missing, so they should be merged together and set to the 2 Panzergruppe color schema
-331. ID has also a double entry, one at 8K/9A and one at 55K/2PG
-Ost Legion are a mystery as I can't find what units they exactly should simulate, can you give more info?
-3. Hungarian Corps should maybe be place on the south and with 2. Armee to cover the flank, that was also the oroginall position
-Infanterie-Regiment Großdeutschland leaves Theater in April 42 and comes back June/July 42 as Infanterie-Division Großdeutschland(infantry division NOT tank division)
-SS-Division Reich left theater in June 42 and came back as SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Das Reich" in February/March 43
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BigDuke66
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by BigDuke66 »

And really finally[:D]:
The divisions available over TO:
-168.ID moved to 2. Armee in August 42
-299.ID moved to 2. Armee in January 42
-8.PzD moved to HG Mitte in December 42
-18.m.ID moved to 10K/16A on 21.12.41
So what to do than with the TOs?
Maybe those divisions should be changed with some that really not entered the theater.
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by briantopp »

Wowvamazing research thank you very much. I'll take a very careful look as I tinker with next build.
briantopp
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RE: "Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

Post by briantopp »

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

And really finally[:D]:
The divisions available over TO:
-168.ID moved to 2. Armee in August 42
-299.ID moved to 2. Armee in January 42
-8.PzD moved to HG Mitte in December 42
-18.m.ID moved to 10K/16A on 21.12.41
So what to do than with the TOs?
Maybe those divisions should be changed with some that really not entered the theater.
I think it works to simply delete the victory point penalty on the date they really entered the theatre.
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