Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital: Kharkov 43

[jomni]

Being a Squad Battles fan, I find it more realistic and engrossing than Steel Panthers.  You get leaders with names, individual weapons that you can drop and pick up, option to take cover.
But their focus are different. SB = Infantry focus (doesn't do tanks well), SP = Tank focus (depiciton of infantry is bland).
It would be great if each title is treated as an add-on and sold at add-on price.  That would definitely take in more new blood.
But selling everything as stand-alone game also makes sense as you can choose the titles like me.

[junk2drive]

I would like to try SB some day. A long time ago "they" said that all the titles would get the 3D isometric units. I'm not gonna buy until they do. I don't like counters.

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: jomni

Being a Squad Battles fan, I find it more realistic and engrossing than Steel Panthers.  You get leaders with names, individual weapons that you can drop and pick up, option to take cover.
But their focus are different. SB = Infantry focus (doesn't do tanks well), SP = Tank focus (depiciton of infantry is bland).
It would be great if each title is treated as an add-on and sold at add-on price.  That would definitely take in more new blood.
But selling everything as stand-alone game also makes sense as you can choose the titles like me.

Good point. However, one could argue the fact that in steel panthers you get leaders as well. The leaders are integrated into the squads, otherwise they work the same way the leaders in SqB does. In steel panthers, your squad leader will try to rally, if he fails, and if you are near the lead squad of the platoon, the platoon commander will also try and help rally. Sure you can't move around leaders the same way SqB does, but it works.

Also, I guess you have never right clicked a squad in steel panthers. The leader of each squad gets a name and rank just like SqB, heck you can change it during the game or in the editor when creating historical scenarios. You can also tell a squad to not shoot certain weapons in the right click info screen as well.

Steel Panthers also has an Op Fire filter, so you can tell your squad to shutup to maintain surprise or save ammo. If there is function like this SqB, I have not seen it. I agree SqB feels more realistic and engaging but whereas SqB fails at it's representation of armor, Steel panthers being armor based also does a rather decent job of infantry as well.

Also, don't get me wrong. I love Squad Battles. I have both and play both.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Good point. However, one could argue the fact that in steel panthers you get leaders as well. The leaders are integrated into the squads, otherwise they work the same way the leaders in SqB does. In steel panthers, your squad leader will try to rally, if he fails, and if you are near the lead squad of the platoon, the platoon commander will also try and help rally. Sure you can't move around leaders the same way SqB does, but it works.

As a sparate unit, your leaders can get killed just by the act of rallying, and their proper placement and use is important. This leads to mroe tactical options and immersion.

Also, I guess you have never right clicked a squad in steel panthers. Te leader of each squad gets a name and rank just like SqB, heck you can change it during the game or in the editor when creating historical scenarios. You can also tell a squad to not shoot certain weapons in the right click info screen as well.

I do right click to manage the individual weapons. But it like it better when I see pictures and faces instead of text and numbers. In SP, it seems that infantry is just a "statistic".

Steel Panthers also has an Op Fire filter, so you can tell your squad to shutup to maintain surprise or save ammo. If there is function like this SqB, I have not seen it. I agree SqB feels more realistic and engaging but whereas SqB fails at it's representation of armor, Steel panthers being armor based also does a rather decent of infantry as well.

Hold fire command (in the Command menu) can be issued to each individual weapon type. But what's lacking is the range filter like SP. So squads in SB will completely hold fire for the whole of your opponent's turn. But still, very handy in doing ambushes. SB brings it to another level where you can actually pick up a dropped weapon (by dead friends or enemies). So if your LMG gunner dies or if you see a nice enemy weapon, you can have someone pick it up. ...But with less effectiveness because you don't have time to scrounge for all the ammo and is not trained to use it. All these little things add to the immersion factor.

Also, don't get me wrong. I love Squad Battles. I have both and play both.

No worries.

[junk2drive]

My fear of SB is all of that detail becoming a tedious task for me.

SP assumes that the soldier knocked out has the lowest weapon. Or another way to look at it is that someone picks up the better weapon from a casualty. Generic but it doesn't require any thinking or input from the player. I understand that you like that input.

I'm glad I like BBC BA. And the expansions.

[V22 Osprey]

Hold fire command eh? Thanks for telling me! I never knew about that. All this time I thought it was so annoying having troops blasting across the map wasting ammo.

I just got SqB Pacific War a month ago, enjoying but fighting the Japanese is a challenge to say the least.

EDIT: Junk, the detail in SqB is a strong point as long as the scenarios aren't too large.

[gabeeg]

WinSPWW2 and SB...my two absolute favorite wargame systems...period. I love both but I find the larger scale, company+ sized battles with more detailed TOE/OOB's...or at least more varied, and slower play more engrossing...but not more fun...just different.

All I have to say about John Tillers new venture now after hearing there is a SB title about to be released is "John, I am very disappointed with some of your business decisions...now...when can I give you some money for that new SB title"...yes I am a jacka$$ hypocrite with no firm principles...and a liberal for good measure (some may argue that these are all consistant with the latter).

[junk2drive]

Thanks for the chuckle. I hope most people can hold out longer than he can.

[diablo1]

As Leslie Nielson said at the end of that skit in the horror movie: "I can hold my breath a long long time".

[sabre1]

JT Games are a nonissue at this point. They just don't exist as far as I'm concerned. There are HPS games, there are Matrix Games, Slitherine Games, Schwerpunkt Games, NWS, Games, but I don't see no JT Games anywhere.

[LarryP]

I own a few but bought them from HPS. I don't like them.

[TheGrayMouser]

ORIGINAL: jomni

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Good point. However, one could argue the fact that in steel panthers you get leaders as well. The leaders are integrated into the squads, otherwise they work the same way the leaders in SqB does. In steel panthers, your squad leader will try to rally, if he fails, and if you are near the lead squad of the platoon, the platoon commander will also try and help rally. Sure you can't move around leaders the same way SqB does, but it works.

As a sparate unit, your leaders can get killed just by the act of rallying, and their proper placement and use is important. This leads to mroe tactical options and immersion.

Also, I guess you have never right clicked a squad in steel panthers. Te leader of each squad gets a name and rank just like SqB, heck you can change it during the game or in the editor when creating historical scenarios. You can also tell a squad to not shoot certain weapons in the right click info screen as well.

I do right click to manage the individual weapons. But it like it better when I see pictures and faces instead of text and numbers. In SP, it seems that infantry is just a "statistic".

Steel Panthers also has an Op Fire filter, so you can tell your squad to shutup to maintain surprise or save ammo. If there is function like this SqB, I have not seen it. I agree SqB feels more realistic and engaging but whereas SqB fails at it's representation of armor, Steel panthers being armor based also does a rather decent of infantry as well.

Hold fire command (in the Command menu) can be issued to each individual weapon type. But what's lacking is the range filter like SP. So squads in SB will completely hold fire for the whole of your opponent's turn. But still, very handy in doing ambushes. SB brings it to another level where you can actually pick up a dropped weapon (by dead friends or enemies). So if your LMG gunner dies or if you see a nice enemy weapon, you can have someone pick it up. ...But with less effectiveness because you don't have time to scrounge for all the ammo and is not trained to use it. All these little things add to the immersion factor.

Also, don't get me wrong. I love Squad Battles. I have both and play both.

No worries.

Good discussion on Steel Panthers and SB, I too always felt (as much as i enjoy all the versions of them) Steel panthers had a very "cold" feel to them... I never cared about any of my units, whether tanks or inf squads, despite the experiance/ morale gains, kills noted and individually named leaders with their 3 skill sets... They were always , as Jomni put it "statistics" .

I dont have any of the Sb games but have been tempted, i think what holds me back is: Not quite sure which ones include 3d graphics( must have 3d at the squad level, not nato icons or squares with faces on them ), no map editor( I am ok w HPS not having the editors for the larger operational or even napoleonic games, but squad level combat is so personal, i cant imagine making a scenario without a personalised map to go along with it), and finally, I feel i have an eternity of gaming left with SPW2 and MBT, so why buy another squad level game?

BTW the wargamer has a link posted , looks like a fan(s) finally completed the Civil War mod for SPWAW, nice
http://enhanced.freeforums.org/sp-civil ... d-f67.html

[junk2drive]

If you go to hps website and check each SB game, the screenshots show which ones have 3D.

I think the only ones are the German/Soviet, US/German, and the Pacific The Proud and the Few in a later patch.

[TheGrayMouser]

Thanks for that, although i have checked out all their game pages, its hard to tell what has what . (plus i dont think HPS necesarily "showcases" their 3d graphics anyhow, he he)  On that note i didnt realize the WW 1 title appears to have 3d graphics as well  (saw a screenie on some site although i cant find it now, Armchair General maybe?)

[junk2drive]

The PzC series has 3D terrain like JTCS but still uses counters as far as I can tell. Maybe that is what you saw for the WWI game.

[TheGrayMouser]

Nope the screenie i saw had actual 3d figures (kinda like the Campaign series games)  which does seem odd for an operational title... Hmm now i must be stubborn and find that site where i saw that pic...


edit: ah here we go, i thought it was Armchair general
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/john-til ... view.htm/2

the 8th pic shows some little 3d dudes... I am guessing the game is better played out in 2d or with the counters though, since it looks like the 3d icons were lifted off ToaW 1