Grand Campaign Haudrauf (Axis) vs. Miller41 (no Miller41 please)

[KenchiSulla]

In reply to Q-ball

1 - Draw will be considered a victory for the axis. I believe delaying the soviet victory will be considered an axis victory
2 - Poor axis cant seem to catch a break in Gary Grigsby games [:D]

Interesting discussion on the various defence tactics !

[Altaris]

Regarding the HQ buildup, I do agree that it can be a life-saver for that '41 advance, and if done right, can coincide with plans very easily. The key is remembering that you cannont move your HQ, and that all the other units in the corps will lose all their MP after the buildup is done. So you want to save the buildup for a turn when your HQ is in a forwardly position (and thus doesn't need to move), and  your panzers are consolidating a local spot, so as to stay in HQ range and get the benefits. Usually I find on a big drive that by the 3rd turn I need to stop and from up my lines, and this is usually a great time to run HQ buildup, especially if you're far from a railhead and have no other feasible way of getting supplied up.

However, I'm not convinced that extra panzers and/or HQ buildup are really going to make a difference against a prepared Soviet player. The problem is that swamp, rough, and heavy woods terrain are pretty much impossible to attack with motorized units. I've had ridiculously situations of 100+ CV worth of panzers not able to break a 10 CV defense in rough terrain even after 2 or 3 attacks. Swamps are even worse, and from what little I've seen thus far of heavy woods, they seem to be almost as bad as the swamps. All the Soviet player has to do is stick a rifle div in the chokepoint heavy woods/swamps on the eastern flank, and the tanks will still be held up til infantry can arrive. You might be able to catch him with his pants down, but that will only work against an unprepared player, and is a huge gamble if he wakes up to the danger and plugs those chokepoints up.

And the big problem is that if your gamble doesn't pay off, you've stripped away from forces that could've been put to good use with AGC to destroy a bigger portion of the Reds.

[Q-Ball]

That's a high price to pay in trucks and MPs for HQ buildup.

It's probably a great idea, though, in the Summer of '42 offensive, because you can do it the turn before you start your attack with minimal to no penalty, because you aren't moving anyway. It's a no-brainer for your spearhead Corps.

[KenchiSulla]

If I understand the manual correctly the price to pay in trucks destoyed for a 4 division corps (HQ 20 movement points from railhead) would be (13*10)+20 =150 destroyed + 1300 damaged. That seems rather a high price to pay and might give you a short boost but will surely hurt you as the campaign progresses into 1942. It might even hurt your motorpool at a critical moment...

It should be done if you have a large chance at a strategic significant succes.. but there is a large tradeoff here...

[Altaris]

I didn't mean that it should be used willy-nilly for just any purpose, but as part of a coordinated drive effort. Some examples I could think of would be an early race to Lagoda or trying to get across the Dnepr in AGS. I agree the price is too high to pay very often, but under certain circumstances, could be well worth it.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

That's a high price to pay in trucks and MPs for HQ buildup.

It's probably a great idea, though, in the Summer of '42 offensive, because you can do it the turn before you start your attack with minimal to no penalty, because you aren't moving anyway. It's a no-brainer for your spearhead Corps.

By then your rail line have caught up to most of your front lines and I've notice in my AI game that you really don't need to use this option because your panzer's are mostly fueled up anyways.

[notenome]

Im actually starting to disagree with the 'at the right time' HQ build up theory. Turn 3 is generally when the axis have run out of fuel and must stop. Turns 3,4,5,6 is when the soviets will get a flood of reinforcements. These will be in a sorry state and will form the backbone of the Dnepr defenses (in the center and southern fronts). So it is in these turns 3,4 when the Soviets to me are the most vulenerable that the axis must stop and refuel. Historically Guderian screamed bloody murder at being told to stop and wait for the infantry before crossing the Dnepr, and I'm starting to think he may be right. With two panzer armies and whatever infantry can huff it, you could feasibly anihilate the western front (again). Though most of these divisions will be at half (or worse) strength, its the formation that counts. Its horrendously expensive to build new formations until the winter and the soviets aren't going to get the shells back until then, either. Though the soviets will never be so overstretched they can't cover the entire front, they will be so overstretched they can't build multiple lines. Not only that but build up is maybe the only chance an axis player really has to destroy industry in PBEM, especially in the south. Though I'm going to wait to play an Axis PBEM until some stuff gets changed (or else I'm going to explode in frustration), I think its necessary at all costs to keep the soviet player off balance, no matter the cost. To me it is worth having a panzer corps be isolated if, for example, you can establish a bridgehead on the Dnepr early.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: notenome

Im actually starting to disagree with the 'at the right time' HQ build up theory. Turn 3 is generally when the axis have run out of fuel and must stop. Turns 3,4,5,6 is when the soviets will get a flood of reinforcements. These will be in a sorry state and will form the backbone of the Dnepr defenses (in the center and southern fronts). So it is in these turns 3,4 when the Soviets to me are the most vulenerable that the axis must stop and refuel. Historically Guderian screamed bloody murder at being told to stop and wait for the infantry before crossing the Dnepr, and I'm starting to think he may be right. With two panzer armies and whatever infantry can huff it, you could feasibly anihilate the western front (again). Though most of these divisions will be at half (or worse) strength, its the formation that counts. Its horrendously expensive to build new formations until the winter and the soviets aren't going to get the shells back until then, either. Though the soviets will never be so overstretched they can't cover the entire front, they will be so overstretched they can't build multiple lines. Not only that but build up is maybe the only chance an axis player really has to destroy industry in PBEM, especially in the south. Though I'm going to wait to play an Axis PBEM until some stuff gets changed (or else I'm going to explode in frustration), I think its necessary at all costs to keep the soviet player off balance, no matter the cost. To me it is worth having a panzer corps be isolated if, for example, you can establish a bridgehead on the Dnepr early.

I don't know if this was directed at my comment but turns 3-5 are not the right time, never said that. What I meant is due to what ever circumstance you have in your games that choosing the right time can be very beneficial to you. If you check out my AAR maps against Redmarkus I have noted when I was refueling my panzer's and hit him at the right time. You can get burned if your panzer are refueling and a good opportunity arises and they can't participate in the action.

Sorry by the way if your AAR got high jacked into a discussion Haudrauf [;)]

[notenome]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

due to disabled return rate being 1/7th what it should be.

Can you Post a turn 53 Axis OOB from AI or PBEM play to show how understrength the Axis are due to this?

That's all Joel wants to see, so the appropriate adjustment can be made. I am going to post a formal request for more data.

I actually believe this AAR will probably give the best numbers as it most closely mirrors what happened. Haudrauf attacked right until the bitter end and is fairly exposed, much as the Wehrmacht was. Tophat vs Moses could possibly also provide some interesting numbers, do to Tophats forward defense, but I fear that may have become discontinued.

[notenome]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

ORIGINAL: notenome

Im actually starting to disagree with the 'at the right time' HQ build up theory. Turn 3 is generally when the axis have run out of fuel and must stop. Turns 3,4,5,6 is when the soviets will get a flood of reinforcements. These will be in a sorry state and will form the backbone of the Dnepr defenses (in the center and southern fronts). So it is in these turns 3,4 when the Soviets to me are the most vulenerable that the axis must stop and refuel. Historically Guderian screamed bloody murder at being told to stop and wait for the infantry before crossing the Dnepr, and I'm starting to think he may be right. With two panzer armies and whatever infantry can huff it, you could feasibly anihilate the western front (again). Though most of these divisions will be at half (or worse) strength, its the formation that counts. Its horrendously expensive to build new formations until the winter and the soviets aren't going to get the shells back until then, either. Though the soviets will never be so overstretched they can't cover the entire front, they will be so overstretched they can't build multiple lines. Not only that but build up is maybe the only chance an axis player really has to destroy industry in PBEM, especially in the south. Though I'm going to wait to play an Axis PBEM until some stuff gets changed (or else I'm going to explode in frustration), I think its necessary at all costs to keep the soviet player off balance, no matter the cost. To me it is worth having a panzer corps be isolated if, for example, you can establish a bridgehead on the Dnepr early.

I don't know if this was directed at my comment but turns 3-5 are not the right time, never said that. What I meant is due to what ever circumstance you have in your games that choosing the right time can be very beneficial to you. If you check out my AAR maps I have noted when I was refueling my panzer's and hit him at the right time. You can get burned if your panzer are refueling and a good opportunity arises and they can't participate in the action.

Sorry by the way if your AAR got high jacked into a discussion Haudrauf [;)]

I never meant to imply that you said it was the right time, I am saying it might be. Due to the Axis inability to concentrate artillery and fighting power, every effort must be made to prevent the formation of a solid defensive line. I'll be putting this to the test whenever I get around to sheeding this shoddy green uniform I'm currently wearing and slip on those comfortable Wehrmacht leather boots.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: notenome

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

ORIGINAL: notenome

Im actually starting to disagree with the 'at the right time' HQ build up theory. Turn 3 is generally when the axis have run out of fuel and must stop. Turns 3,4,5,6 is when the soviets will get a flood of reinforcements. These will be in a sorry state and will form the backbone of the Dnepr defenses (in the center and southern fronts). So it is in these turns 3,4 when the Soviets to me are the most vulenerable that the axis must stop and refuel. Historically Guderian screamed bloody murder at being told to stop and wait for the infantry before crossing the Dnepr, and I'm starting to think he may be right. With two panzer armies and whatever infantry can huff it, you could feasibly anihilate the western front (again). Though most of these divisions will be at half (or worse) strength, its the formation that counts. Its horrendously expensive to build new formations until the winter and the soviets aren't going to get the shells back until then, either. Though the soviets will never be so overstretched they can't cover the entire front, they will be so overstretched they can't build multiple lines. Not only that but build up is maybe the only chance an axis player really has to destroy industry in PBEM, especially in the south. Though I'm going to wait to play an Axis PBEM until some stuff gets changed (or else I'm going to explode in frustration), I think its necessary at all costs to keep the soviet player off balance, no matter the cost. To me it is worth having a panzer corps be isolated if, for example, you can establish a bridgehead on the Dnepr early.

I don't know if this was directed at my comment but turns 3-5 are not the right time, never said that. What I meant is due to what ever circumstance you have in your games that choosing the right time can be very beneficial to you. If you check out my AAR maps I have noted when I was refueling my panzer's and hit him at the right time. You can get burned if your panzer are refueling and a good opportunity arises and they can't participate in the action.

Sorry by the way if your AAR got high jacked into a discussion Haudrauf [;)]

I never meant to imply that you said it was the right time, I am saying it might be. Due to the Axis inability to concentrate artillery and fighting power, every effort must be made to prevent the formation of a solid defensive line. I'll be putting this to the test whenever I get around to sheeding this shoddy green uniform I'm currently wearing and slip on those comfortable Wehrmacht leather boots.

ah, gotcha[;)]

[MrLongleg]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Sorry by the way if your AAR got high jacked into a discussion Haudrauf [;)]

No problem at all - I think this discussion is worth it. I will post new move tomorrow, situation still very very bad...

[ComradeP]

Now that fuel dumps are no longer staying in HQ's, my fuel situation has improved a bit. In my game with notenome, my mobile units are averaging about 30 MP's each turn, which is fine. If I'd use HQ buildup to get that to 50, the mobile units might be able to advance further, but the only thing that would be achieved is that my spearhead would be far away from my infantry, whilst I try to keep my infantry close to the spearhead, which also makes the spearhead much more difficult to attack. I don't like to take risks with mobile units.

A HQ buildup is only really worth it if you can unhinge a part of the Soviet defensive line significantly or can get to, say, Leningrad thanks to it. Losing 20 or so units in one turn is a pinprick for the Soviets as long as they have lost 10 or less divisions/turn for the other turns.

[Encircled]

Cracking to read an AAR going into the winter.

I'll be bricking it big style when I finally reach there with my GC.

Thanks for all the tips on defence, and I think I'll be stopping attacking long before the mud to give myself a chance.

[MrLongleg]

Turn 32 intro:

Just to give you an idea - even the super efficient German tank divisions are overrun by rifle divisions in clear terrain - even if he attackers have smaller numbers:

[MrLongleg]

Turn 32: overall: not pretty at all

As you see, even when you think you covered a hex it can be overrun by inferior Russian forces. So the situation stays ugly and gets uglier by every week. This turnI had to retreat from Smolensk to avoid complete encirclement. In the north and the line from Orel to Kharkov the front did not move much - but the hole between 16th army and 2nd army and 9th army are creating headaches. Moreover 9th army is in miserable shape and I started to combine two very weak divisions into single not so weak divisions.

11th army in the south is also in big trouble. On the bright die the brave Rumanians successfully help Zhaporozie.

But my time will come again. I am beginning to like the exposed salients Marshall M. is moving himself into. Lets hope that he gets very bold, so that I can start some pocketing operations in when the front has stabilized.

[randallw]

Your opponent has bothered to create cavalry corps, yet has deployed the rifle brigades as they were created, instead of combining them into divisions.

You are down to about 1k running tanks, that's very ouchy.

[Klydon]

Ouch.. not a good strength ratio with the Germans under 2.5 million men and the Russians over 6 million.

Looking like one of the reasons 11th army is hurting could be the distance to the rail head.

Be interesting to see how well you can bounce back during the snow and then the summer of 42.

[CharonJr]

Yes, this might get ugly, still a decent number of blizzard turns left.

[ComradeP]

The +1 odds modifier is hurting your defences, I see. Without the odds modifier/as the Axis, the attack on those mobile units would never have worked with those odds.