AGS Turn 1 Moves

[Q-Ball]

The guys on that hill take 3 Divisions on Deliberate attack; no more, no less. I use 3 from the same Corps in 17th Army, so the 6th Army grunts save their MPs to close the Kovel Pocket, and create a little space for the Panzers.

There is a big difference in fighting ability in the south with the Reds; north of the Pripet, a stiff breeze routs every unit. South of it,though, is another story......

[PeeDeeAitch]

The Q-Ball Maneuver - using infantry to cut off and surround Kovel as well as the 2nd PzG corp to cut off the Lvov Pocket (like it or not, it is going to have your name on it!) - is, right now, the best opening. I am realist enough to know there may well be better options learned in the future, but for now creating these two pockets, having your armor for a good 2nd turn (do not underestimate this advantage to the Lvov pocket), all helps create some momentum in the south that is needed. Any chance to throw your opponant off balance a bit is good, and this has the benefit of trapping many divisions.

[cookie monster]

I reckon we should call it ''The Q-BALL GAMBIT''

An ode to the WITPAE ''MERSING GAMBIT''

[Q-Ball]

Mersing is a place, though, not a person. And someone else had the idea first. Maybe not the using-infantry-for-Kovel pocket part, but certainly the whole concept isn't mine.

The Kovel pocket is tricky, you need to be very careful on not using the Infantry close to the border, you have to be careful on sequence, because you really have to push the Mot Div south of Kovel correctly when it retreats. If that doesn't happen, if it retreats east, you can't close it without a Mobile unit. That's the trickiest part of that pocket, is that Mot Div.

The trickiest part of the Lvov pocket is the two Mech Corps north of Tarnopol. Move those aside, and you're home free.

[PeeDeeAitch]

You put it all into practice in a game first, so it is yours - like it or not. Now the PDH (no need to spell out my whole handle, it is just initials) Maneuver is to lose so badly on Turn 1 that I have to forfeit shortly thereafter.

[SuluSea]

I'll be using Q-Balls Korvel Korner ® .[:)][;)]

[Ketza]

It shall be forever known as "the Qball maneuver" but will not be related to "the dirty sanchez" or any type of well known "manuevers" that have been made popular though history.

[Klydon]

Qball maneuver sounds more like something Captain Kirk would use. [:D]

[randallw]

Q-ball in the Kovel pocket?

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The guys on that hill take 3 Divisions on Deliberate attack; no more, no less.

Not now they don't, only 2.
Beta 3/4 be praised

[PeeDeeAitch]

From my initial tests I still use 3 just to be sure. I hate coming up short on that attack with the IV corps.

[SuluSea]

Does anyone have the time to see if they can break this as it's almost as wide as I can get it. I'll put up a file if anyone can help.  I wasted a couple MPs (maybe 6-8) and has a few mobile forces not exactly where I want them. Thanks.
 
 

 
 

[PeeDeeAitch]

Good way to test these things is to play the soviet turn yourself and just be creative - sometimes you spot things you never would have imagined.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Good way to test these things is to play the soviet turn yourself and just be creative - sometimes you spot things you never would have imagined.

Thanks PeeDee, I should have mentioned already did that a number of times.[;)] Closest I came was one hex but that's putting Soviet tanks at risk next turn, be my guest. [:D] Atleast the way I see it now. [;)]

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Does anyone have the time to see if they can break this as it's almost as wide as I can get it. I'll put up a file if anyone can help.  I wasted a couple MPs (maybe 6-8) and has a few mobile forces not exactly where I want them. Thanks.

I hate quoting a picture but here goes...

Directly north of the SS Motorized Division

Move the Western tank one hex east. They are GUARENTEED one hex movement.

Move the eastern tank or cav division to convert the other hex.

Then you SHOULD be de-isolated.

Quickest way of checking this is to run a head to head against yourself.

[SuluSea]

Just broke it,



Next turn I'll position the armor better and not waste the mps during movement

[CharonJr]

I have come to like this opening, it removes all but 1 mobile corps from 2. Panzergruppe, 1 assigned to 1. Panzergruppe and the other one just helping AGS. It is possible to reach Kiev by turn 3 and cross the Dnepr by turn 4 with this setup, just be sure to have lots of transports/level bombers close to drop fuel at the spearheads.

If the Soviets try a forward defense it is fairly likely that you can bag a large portion of the units down there due to the large number of mobile forces which will still have lots of MPs during turn 2 and the units that get activaetd on turn 2 will still have good MPs during turn 3.

The screenshot is from my AAR, so dont worry about some of the comments

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: CharonJr

I have come to like this opening, it removes all but 1 mobile corps from 2. Panzergruppe, 1 assigned to 1. Panzergruppe and the other one just helping AGS. It is possible to reach Kiev by turn 3 and cross the Dnepr by turn 4 with this setup, just be sure to have lots of transports/level bombers close to drop fuel at the spearheads.

If the Soviets try a forward defense it is fairly likely that you can bag a large portion of the units down there due to the large number of mobile forces which will still have lots of MPs during turn 2 and the units that get activaetd on turn 2 will still have good MPs during turn 3.

The screenshot is from my AAR, so dont worry about some of the comments

One problem with this is at the very southern part. The isolation can be broken. That would mean on turn 2 you could not begin cleaning the Lvov pocket because the units would route out of the pocket rather than surrender. To ensure that isolation is maintained, you need two divisions down by the Prut. One needs to displace the NKVD regiment, the other needs to convert hexes after the NKVD regiment is displaced.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Call me a traditionalist, but I don't like denuding the center so much. I like the 2x2 opening move (2 panzer corps for 3rd Group, 2 corps for 2nd Group) to cut a wide swath in the center and ensure completely surrounding the Bialystok-Lida pocket.  The flexibility is still there, the 3rd corps from Guderian goes south to isolate Lvov, and the XIV corps (from the 1st Group) can join the 2nd on turn 2.
 
Now, Charon has shown what this strategy can do - he is carving up the south, but I am a curmudgeon. So there!

[CharonJr]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

One problem with this is at the very southern part. The isolation can be broken. That would mean on turn 2 you could not begin cleaning the Lvov pocket because the units would route out of the pocket rather than surrender. To ensure that isolation is maintained, you need two divisions down by the Prut. One needs to displace the NKVD regiment, the other needs to convert hexes after the NKVD regiment is displaced.

Hmm exactly where in the very south? With the ZOCs down there I can't see the Soviets opening that pocket, unless they have a higher chance to enter a ZOC when it is not their first move than what I have experienced so far.