Limit Theory

[danlongman]

Some people bring out the worst in themselves. I am embarrassed for dropping in on this unseemly mess.
I personally would like to believe this product will be delivered at some point resembling it's promise.
If not then I may have an opinion to express. Until then I can just remark on some people's bad manners
and offensive attitude of momentous self importance. But that is just my opinion and nothing more.

[zakblood]

well it's 6am ish here, and i'm still warming my hands up on the heated debate above, motohoming is fun and i do love to go away on holiday, watching others fall out can be more so, but for me lifes to short, so i agree with everyone. then do as i like anyway, unless GF tells me different, and who am i to argue [:D]

[Lucian]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
When he abandons the project, I wonder how many will sue him for fraud? Probably not many.

You seriously still think he's going to abandon it? Doesn't seem very likely, after all this time and work, if he was going to jump ship he would have done so by now. No he'll end up releasing something eventually. In fact I cant really fault him for missing his deadlines, he certainly wouldn't be the first game dev to go over time, almost all of them do.

My worry is that LT seems to have morphed into an arcadey version of elite with space-lanes that I'm no longer very interested in playing. Pity, the original concept sounded so promising....

Hopefully he's right about modding those bloody lanes out without completely killing the AI.

[Aurelian]

I kind of like the idea of lanes. It worked in Imperium. It works for the Humans/Hivers/Zuul in SOTS. It works in the Honorverse, (Wormhole junctions and grav waves there.)

[Lucian]

Well each to their own, but actually Hivers can teleport to any system with a gate so their "lanes" are not fixed roads that cant be changed. Or another way of looking at it is that every Hiver system has a starlane to every other Hiver system with a gate, not really a "road-in-space" issue. Same with the Zuul, they can bore their own lanes and are not restricted to set routes. But Humans? Yeah, pretty much explains why I never play as humans in SOTS.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Lucian

You seriously still think he's going to abandon it? Doesn't seem very likely, after all this time and work, if he was going to jump ship he would have done so by now. No he'll end up releasing something eventually.

I haven't ruled that out as a possibility. It changes nothing - he's on track to deliver, as you describe it, an arcadey version of Elite. The core issue remains - his backers won't get what they were promised.

ORIGINAL: Lucian

In fact I cant really fault him for missing his deadlines, he certainly wouldn't be the first game dev to go over time, almost all of them do.

Slipping isn't a major problem in itself. It's a sign that things are going dreadfully awry.

If he's happy to release a COMPLETELY UNTESTED game, then he MIGHT be a year late. Add in testing and feature complete, and he won't ship till at least 2018. Not without more resources, dropping features, or skimping on dev or testing.

It's the equivalent of a plumber working on your water heater and him saying he knows what the problem is and he'll be done by noon. And it's midnight and he's still banging away.

ORIGINAL: Lucian
My worry is that LT seems to have morphed into an arcadey version of elite with space-lanes that I'm no longer very interested in playing. Pity, the original concept sounded so promising....

To be fair, his original vision was ridiculously ambitious. But that still doesn't change the core issue - it seems less and less likely each day, that he'll deliver what he promised.

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Hopefully he's right about modding those bloody lanes out without completely killing the AI.

Did he actually write that? Did he actually write that the proposed mod wouldn't kill the AI? Or did he write that it could be done - with no reference to the knock-on effects?

If it's such a doddle to do and it was in his original vision, and he acknowledges that players want it - then ask yourself why he's not putting it into the release. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[Zap]

I'm not interested in this game. But I really don't see the big deal about the date of arrival. In comparison Matrix has a game in its stall waiting to be released(new game area). Must be at least 6 years r more. The key here is for the creator of the game to remain silent. that seems to work. Then everyone will forget. Then when he's ready offer his game.

[Lucian]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

The core issue remains - his backers won't get what they were promised.

I don’t think he really made such exacting promises in the beginning, its just the way the fine details of the game have evolved over time. I didn’t even know about the starlanes until about 6 months ago. So while I can say with 90% certainty that I don’t like the direction the game has taken, I really cant speak for his backers. For all I know 99% of them are completely ecstatic about arcadey gameplay and starlanes. In fact if they aren’t then Josh has a serious problem.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

If he's happy to release a COMPLETELY UNTESTED game, then he MIGHT be a year late. Add in testing and feature complete, and he won't ship till at least 2018. Not without more resources, dropping features, or skimping on dev or testing.

Agreed, that seems like a much more likely scenario although a late release is infinitely preferable to no release.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Did he actually write that? Did he actually write that the proposed mod wouldn't kill the AI? Or did he write that it could be done - with no reference to the knock-on effects?

No that’s poor wording on my part. He said that starlanes could be modded out of the game relatively easily by scripting. He didn’t mention the effect it would have on other game systems......like AI. I did a follow-up post asking him to clarify but he hasn’t yet responded.

My feeling is that such a radical change would almost certainly have catastrophic effects on the AI – at the very least - and probably many other game systems as well. I would be absolutely astounded if it didn’t. With that in mind I don’t see much point in modding out starlanes if all you’ll end up with is a lobotomised game.

While I’m personally disappointed at the direction the game has taken, Josh obviously has very strong and clear ideas about his design and (hopefully) its audience. They just don’t happen to coincide with gameplay that I find particularly immersive and enjoyable.

Luckily I didn’t back him, if I had then my language and attitude would probably have been slightly more emotional but I can certainly sympathize with any backers who share my concerns. I’ve really lost nothing more than a few hopes and little reading time. I can console myself with the fact that Elite Dangerous is looking very nice (no starlanes, seamless planet landings) and will most likely make me forget that LT ever existed.

Edit: (rather than double posting.....)

ORIGINAL: Zap
I'm not interested in this game. But I really don't see the big deal about the date of arrival. In comparison Matrix has a game in its stall waiting to be released(new game area). Must be at least 6 years r more. The key here is for the creator of the game to remain silent. that seems to work. Then everyone will forget. Then when he's ready offer his game.

I agree, games released on time are the exception rather than the rule. Its not a big deal. I like the fact that he's willing to talk to the public though, a very unusual and admirable attitude in a game dev. Even if I don't like his current game, I'm much more likely to pay attention to him in the future because of his willingness to interact and address my concerns - even if he doesn't agree with them.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Lucian

Well each to their own, but actually Hivers can teleport to any system with a gate so their "lanes" are not fixed roads that cant be changed. Or another way of looking at it is that every Hiver system has a starlane to every other Hiver system with a gate, not really a "road-in-space" issue. Same with the Zuul, they can bore their own lanes and are not restricted to set routes. But Humans? Yeah, pretty much explains why I never play as humans in SOTS.

Even if they bore or gate their own lanes, they still have to follow said lanes. And since the gates can be destroyed......

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Zap

I'm not interested in this game. But I really don't see the big deal about the date of arrival. In comparison Matrix has a game in its stall waiting to be released(new game area). Must be at least 6 years r more. The key here is for the creator of the game to remain silent. that seems to work. Then everyone will forget. Then when he's ready offer his game.

World in Flames took how long again?? (Note, I agree with you.)

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
and STFU

Addendum:

I think this bothered me the most. You think that people who disagree with you can be intimidated or abused into silence. By your argument, those who don't hold your position have no right to speak.

That's fundamentally against the most basic principles of a forum. Matrix has been consistent in allowing people to discuss pretty much anything, so long as they refrain from profanity or outright abuse. You however, disagree with this principle. You think that people who can't meet your arbitrary and absurd standards of reasonableness, should be silenced.

That's not going to happen.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
and STFU

Addendum:

I think this bothered me the most. You think that people who disagree with you can be intimidated or abused into silence. By your argument, those who don't hold your position have no right to speak.

That's fundamentally against the most basic principles of a forum. Matrix has been consistent in allowing people to discuss pretty much anything, so long as they refrain from profanity or outright abuse. You however, disagree with this principle. You think that people who can't meet your arbitrary and absurd standards of reasonableness, should be silenced.

That's not going to happen.

warspite1

20 year old kid with no experience, no track record, nothing more than an inflated ego and immense hubris.

Unless this guy was secretly cloned from brain tissue samples of Sid Meyer, Julain Gollop and Ian Bell - I'd say the likelihood of his coming anything close to expectation is pretty minimal.

Whilst I agree that STFU is somewhat industrial, unpleasant even, though sadly hardly uncommon nowadays, do you not think that this thread - which has essentially been a put down and slating of the efforts of one guy to produce a game - has been, in its own way - equally unpleasant?

Take your opening gambit (above). Hubris and inflated ego. Hardly kind was it? Followed by:

Limit Theory project is a sad and pathetic thing.

and then of course there was

That's the difference between a university drop-out hack and professionals.

Fair enough, you think that Limit Theory:

- is under resourced
- is being programmed by someone not up to the job
- has deadlines that have been and will continue to be missed
- isn't going to happen - or if it does it will be fall way short of initial expectations.

Yep, been there, heard that and you know what? You may be right on some or all accounts. But why not just give the guy a break and instead of coming on here and slaughtering him and his project ad infinitum, why not go and do something positive?

I was involved in the MWIF project for more years than I care to remember. We had people that loved to tell everyone how the project would never see the light of day and how clever they were for "knowing that" or if it didn't happen it would not be what was promised blah blah. Fair enough they were entitled to their opinion and expressed it. But for some - few I'm pleased to say - they couldn't let it go and coming onto the forum to spout their bile became a religion.

There were a lot of people - 99% of whom were unpaid - who were working in their own small way (and still are) to help that project along, and reading the constant sniping and carping just got wearing - it wasn't positive, it didn't help, it didn't make the economics of the situation any easier, it doesn't get the project finished faster - it was just unhelpful. And when those comments turned into attacks on the programmer and even the unpaid beta testers, then..... well its just not needed. The economics were not going to change, there was no magic wand, so if they were that certain it was going to be a disaster then why not just walk away and find another game to, you know, play?

So I must ask, what is your goal here? So you can tell everyone how right you were if the project fails or at least fails to deliver on all its promises? But if so, you've made your point - why continue to wee on someone else's fireworks? Why have you chosen this guy and this game to get really in a lather about? Maybe you have invested money in the project - in which case I can see why you are not happy, but otherwise?

Just curious, although this comment from you may give a clue as to your motivation:

My position is now one of glee. Much like the sense of excitement one gets in watching a slow-motion video of a traffic accident.

Nice..

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Matrix has been consistent in allowing people to discuss pretty much anything, so long as they refrain from profanity or outright abuse.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Your externalization of your own self-loathing and sexual confusion isn't helping your argument.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I'm sure you can find a public toilet frequented by people who will be happy to service your needs.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Really, it's getting rather tedious to go round and round with a crazy person...

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Your statements come across as distinctly sociopathic...

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
If that isn't a clear sign of insanity, I'm not sure what is.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I think the question of "crazy" has been suitably demonstrated.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
You just made a crazy statement.

You just asked yourself a question from a quote from yourself. That's not crazy?

"Replaying or rehearsing conversations out loud- i.e. talking to yourself (very common sign)" - from schizophrenia.com

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I call crazy where I see crazy. Your conversation with yourself is schizophrenic as far as I can see.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
From what I can gather from your statements, Icey, you come from North Korea or some such place. How's your beloved leader these days?

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
or are you trying to start a flame war by going full retard on me?

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
That would be yet another lie.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
If you were less of a twat, you'd have taken advantage of his comments to educate yourself.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Hi Kayoz,

Your recent reaction to my request to tone it down has resulted in an official warning. We issue one warning, after that a poster is banned for a period until they acknowledge they can abide by the forum rules. Current politics and religion are also discouraged on this forum, as they tend to create friction whereas the point of these forums is to share our common interest in gaming. There are other places to discuss the more touchy subjects that sometimes divide us.

What on earth is it going to take before Kayoz is permanently banned?

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

What on earth is it going to take before Kayoz is permanently banned?

Interesting how you didn't quote the people I was replying to. Such as the racist screwball who called for the murder of children.

Interesting indeed.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I was involved in the MWIF project for more years than I care to remember.
...

There were a lot of people - 99% of whom were unpaid - who were working in their own small way (and still are) to help that project along

One question to put this in context:

How much money did those running the project get from Kickstarter or other crowd-funding sources? How many people were put out of pocket? (it's a 2-parter question)

I think it's an absolutely critical question before any comparison can be made between MWIF (no idea what that is) and LT.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
So I must ask, what is your goal here?

To add a voice of reason to the debate. Too much uncritical promotion by Josh and his fan-boys. To anyone without a background in software development, it colours the debate unfairly.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Nice..

Schadenfreude. It's a word that encompasses the sentiment you pointed to quite nicely.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I was involved in the MWIF project for more years than I care to remember.
...

There were a lot of people - 99% of whom were unpaid - who were working in their own small way (and still are) to help that project along

One question to put this in context:

How much money did those running the project get from Kickstarter or other crowd-funding sources? How many people were put out of pocket? (it's a 2-parter question)

I think it's an absolutely critical question before any comparison can be made between MWIF (no idea what that is) and LT.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
So I must ask, what is your goal here?

To add a voice of reason to the debate. Too much uncritical promotion by Josh and his fan-boys. To anyone without a background in software development, it colours the debate unfairly.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Nice..

Schadenfreude. It's a word that encompasses the sentiment you pointed to quite nicely.

warspite1

One question to put this in context:

How much money did those running the project get from Kickstarter or other crowd-funding sources? How many people were put out of pocket? (it's a 2-parter question)

I think it's an absolutely critical question before any comparison can be made between MWIF (no idea what that is) and LT.

What MWIF is, is unimportant because the point was simply that I can relate what is happening with Limit Theory with a personal experience with MWIF, the way certain people acted on internet forums, and how it is a pretty unpleasant situation to be in.

The reason why these two are comparable, in my view, is that they are/were a) long on fanfare and anticipation (in the case of MWIF it was because it is based on one of, if not the greatest board games ever devised) b) they are both very challenging projects (I am taking that comment for LT from what has been written as I have no personal knowledge) c) both overdue in being launched, and d) considered, by some, to be under-resourced (for whatever reason – but essentially the programmer resource).

However, re your first question, the matter of finance for the project is not really the point. How the MWIF project was financed between ADG (board game makers), Matrix and the Programmer is something I know nothing about. Its immaterial what the funding position is because Kickstarter and other similar schemes are designed to back new ideas and get them off the drawing board. But like any such investment type they are not guaranteed. People have invested having made their decision on what is best for them and their money. If you have invested in this project then I guess it was just a bad investment wasn’t it (assuming you are right of course) and people should be more careful in what they invest in? If you haven’t invested then you are in no different a position to those who vented their bile on the MWIF forum.

You say, all-knowing, that those who have invested are “out of pocket”. But you do not KNOW that. Maybe they will be, maybe not – only the future can tell (or is there a time limit, beyond which the investment gets no return regardless how successful the game is?).
Guess what? You may be wrong, just as those who came on the MWIF forum and confidently stated – yes stated as fact - that MWIF would never be launched, were wrong.

To add a voice of reason to the debate. Too much uncritical promotion by Josh and his fan-boys. To anyone without a background in software development, it colours the debate unfairly.

Fair enough, and you have made your feelings clear, but I ask again, why is it of such concern to you that you feel you have to come on here and slaughter the guy and his project – continually - and in so doing have been not overly pleasant, as pointed out earlier (but get all upset if someone is unpleasant to you)?

Do not get me wrong, I know nothing of Josh Parnell or his project (apart from what I have gleaned from this thread and the website link). I make no comment about who is right or wrong (or likely to be, because no one knows). But you have made your point and now it just feels like some kind of vendetta against the guy, and I was just curious as to your motivation.

Schadenfreude.

Okay, that probably answers my only real question here – your motivation. Basically it’s just to kick the guy and his project and prove you are right – all for the feeling of Schadenfreude it gives you.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
re your first question, the matter of finance for the project is not really the point

No, I disagree. I believe it's critically important.

If it's a private company giving the developer money based on their agreed goals and budgeting, then that's a decision made by professionals who understand the factors involved. Most people contributing to Kickstarter don't have that sort of knowledge and expertise to make an informed decision.

I don't think it's my place to question how a publisher chooses to invest it's own money. They're professionals and their decisions will pay off - or not - and suffer the consequences or reap the rewards.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You say, all-knowing, that those who have invested are “out of pocket”. But you do not KNOW that.

Yes, I do know. They're out of pocket now. The money has gone to Josh. Whether or not they see a return on their expenditure is not salient to the phrase.

Ex: If I pay for parking "out of pocket" - and land a large sale reaping a juicy commission as a result, that commission doesn't make the parking any more or less "out of pocket".

"out of pocket" = "paid out or owed in cash; necessitating an expenditure of cash"

ORIGINAL: warspite1
stated as fact - that MWIF would never be launched, were wrong.

Irrelevant. I had nothing to do with that and have no means of judging the accuracy of your remarks, since I have no idea what it is you're talking about.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
why is it of such concern to you that you feel you have to come on here

I've been here longer than Josh. He came here (Matrix forums) and pandered his game - I was already here.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
get all upset if someone is unpleasant to you

So, you're asking why I am unpleasant to people who are unpleasant with me? Is that really your question?

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Basically it’s just to kick the guy and his project and prove you are right – all for the feeling of Schadenfreude it gives you.

I don't think you understand what schadenfreude means. You're conflating multiple statements.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: warspite1
re your first question, the matter of finance for the project is not really the point

No, I disagree. I believe it's critically important.

If it's a private company giving the developer money based on their agreed goals and budgeting, then that's a decision made by professionals who understand the factors involved. Most people contributing to Kickstarter don't have that sort of knowledge and expertise to make an informed decision.

I don't think it's my place to question how a publisher chooses to invest it's own money. They're professionals and their decisions will pay off - or not - and suffer the consequences or reap the rewards.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You say, all-knowing, that those who have invested are “out of pocket”. But you do not KNOW that.

Yes, I do know. They're out of pocket now. The money has gone to Josh. Whether or not they see a return on their expenditure is not salient to the phrase.

Ex: If I pay for parking "out of pocket" - and land a large sale reaping a juicy commission as a result, that commission doesn't make the parking any more or less "out of pocket".

"out of pocket" = "paid out or owed in cash; necessitating an expenditure of cash"

ORIGINAL: warspite1
stated as fact - that MWIF would never be launched, were wrong.

Irrelevant. I had nothing to do with that and have no means of judging the accuracy of your remarks, since I have no idea what it is you're talking about.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
why is it of such concern to you that you feel you have to come on here

I've been here longer than Josh. He came here (Matrix forums) and pandered his game - I was already here.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
get all upset if someone is unpleasant to you

So, you're asking why I am unpleasant to people who are unpleasant with me? Is that really your question?

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Basically it’s just to kick the guy and his project and prove you are right – all for the feeling of Schadenfreude it gives you.

I don't think you understand what schadenfreude means. You're conflating multiple statements.

warspite1

I suspected that debating with you was going to be a waste of time, although I didn't realise to what extent.

I now do. The answers you have given are quite ridiculous - ranging from absurd:

They're out of pocket now. The money has gone to Josh. Whether or not they see a return on their expenditure is not salient to the phrase.

You have no idea what an investment is do you? Absolutely ridiculous.

to the mind-bogglingly obnoxious (and disingenuous):

Irrelevant. I had nothing to do with that and have no means of judging the accuracy of your remarks, since I have no idea what it is you're talking about.

Well, as I say, I know nothing about Mr Parnell or his space game, but after 10 minutes of conversing with you, all I can say is I hope beyond hope that it proves to be a stunning success.

Good day.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

They're out of pocket now. The money has gone to Josh. Whether or not they see a return on their expenditure is not salient to the phrase.

You have no idea what an investment is do you? Absolutely ridiculous.

The phrase was "out of pocket", not "investment". If there's an error, it's yours in lacking an understanding of the difference between the two.

Please consult a dictionary.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
to the mind-bogglingly obnoxious (and disingenuous)

Nothing disingenuous about it. I honestly have no idea what this MWIF is, that you constantly refer to. I've stated so several times and you've never bothered to inform me. If someone is being disingenuous, it's you for continuing to refer to something I've repeatedly stated I have no information on.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
all I can say is I hope beyond hope that it proves to be a stunning success.

I hope so as well. It would be a pleasant surprise to be proven wrong. I'd also like to find out that Elvis is still alive and the Easter Bunny is real.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: warspite1

They're out of pocket now. The money has gone to Josh. Whether or not they see a return on their expenditure is not salient to the phrase.

You have no idea what an investment is do you? Absolutely ridiculous.

The phrase was "out of pocket", not "investment". If there's an error, it's yours in lacking an understanding of the difference between the two.

Please consult a dictionary.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
to the mind-bogglingly obnoxious (and disingenuous)

Nothing disingenuous about it. I honestly have no idea what this MWIF is, that you constantly refer to. I've stated so several times and you've never bothered to inform me. If someone is being disingenuous, it's you for continuing to refer to something I've repeatedly stated I have no information on.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
all I can say is I hope beyond hope that it proves to be a stunning success.

I hope so as well. It would be a pleasant surprise to be proven wrong. I'd also like to find out that Elvis is still alive and the Easter Bunny is real.

warspite1

I really shouldn't waste time like this but you are one special case aren't you?

No, why don't you spend less time looking up big words and more time understanding simple facts. People who invest in the likes of Kickstarter, are Investors. They invest in projects like this knowing that a return, if there is one, will be at some point in the future. They are not out of pocket in the sense that you are trying to marry it to.

The pathetic car park example was totally irrelevant.

What MWIF is, is irrelevant as it was brought up only because of the similarities with LT - and I have told you what they are. It's not difficult to understand. When MWIF was underdevelopment, people like you, were happy to come onto the forum telling everyone how rubbish the project was and that it was not going to ever see the light of day. This is the sort of behaviour that you choose to adopt re LT. There now. Do.You. Understand?

I've been here longer than Josh. He came here (Matrix forums) and pandered his game - I was already here.

Yep, that comment shows a mental age of about 10. Next.

So, you're asking why I am unpleasant to people who are unpleasant with me? Is that really your question?

Please see post 4. Who was that in response to then? [8|]

Schadenfreude

I know exactly what it means thank-you. You could always take your multiple conflating statements and shove them somewhere?