I hope Matrix doesnt make us use STEAM to buy games in the future

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

When you pay 50+$ for a wargame, you get a game that isn't burdened by the poor taste of the lowest common denominator that the AAA companies have to pander to to amass their huge budgets.

Careful, your (misplaced) sense of elitism is showing.

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Also, what larger industry? Show me the AAA company that offers a realistic complex wargame (something on level of Command Ops: Battle of the Bulge) with AAA graphics for 50$.

A games company is a games company is a games company. This is like me saying because Matrix doesn't produce FPS games it must be inferior to EA. What we're talking about here is customer perception, not genre.

If I sit down with an EA or a Ubisoft or a Firaxis product and it is priced for $60, I know it will deliver a $60 experience. And if it doesn't, the word will be out in days (if not hours) explaining why it is not worth the money. I'll even be able to get a demo and look at it for myself.

If an "indie" game developer releases a product, I'll know what to expect: a much lower price (usually, and even if it isn't it will be maximum $30-40), lower production values, and possibly inferior gameplay. But I'll again most likely have a demo I can pull to take a look at.

If Matrix releases a game, all I have to go on are press releases, an extremely small review community that is largely not neutral, and a group of Kool-Aid drinkers that would sing its praises even if the thing accidentally induced miscarriages in their womenfolk. But I can also count on a price much higher than an independent project, the release of a patch within weeks (if not days), and a presentation far from that of a AAA game, even though the prices are beginning to match the AAA industry.

I don't mind paying top dollar for wine...if it's good quality, if I can taste it to see for myself, and if I know it's been produced the same way a top quality wine is.

I will not accept a bottle Thunderbird with a flashy label slapped on it. Especially when you say I can't taste it and have to trust you...or I could always go ask the bunch of winos clustered around your sales stand.

[Tomn]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

We're talking game purchases. Say we have a game that focuses on quantum mechanics and not wargames, but draws the customer away. It is relevant because the customer looks at both in their purchase decision. I said the hobby and Matrix do not live in a bubble. The same applies to Matrix's customers...well, most of Matrix's customers.

I personally am not a fan of either AC or COD, but I recognize the amount of man hours, work, and quality programming that goes into such a product. I also recognize (as in I have seen mentioned in these forums) that a heckuva lot of Matrix's customer base do play such games.

And no quality programming and research goes into complex wargames, right? Also, pricing of AAA games isn't related to their quality. You get expensive graphics not because you paid 50+$ but because millions of other people paid 50+$ too.
It has its cost, though. The cost is that you're not getting complex game mechanics, realism, etc. because they decrease the accessibility of the game.
When you pay 50+$ for a wargame, you get a game that isn't burdened by the poor taste of the lowest common denominator that the AAA companies have to pander to to amass their huge budgets. A game that is catered to taste of much smaller audience.

You are aware of the difference between a subjective opinion and an objective fact, right?

It is an objective fact that Matrix games tend to be more realistic than more mainstream titles.

It is a subjective opinion as to whether that's a point in their favor or not.

It is an objective fact that mainstream AAA titles have far, far, far more money, man-hours, art, and programming spent on their production than Matrix titles.

It is a subjective opinion as to whether that makes them better than Matrix titles.

That said, I don't think Dutchman is on to a good thing when he talks about the nebulous "quality" of AAA titles. I think it'd be more accurate to say that their "production values" are top-notch, whereas Matrix production values are generally mediocre at best, focusing as they do instead on realism and gameplay instead of things like interface design.

One thing I'd like to point out, by the way - AAA games don't cost a lot because "Hurf durf idiots are willing to pay through the nose for worthless rubbish." The same might be said of Matrix Games, after all, if you're of the subjective opinion that realism and the sort of gameplay found in wargames isn't worth much, so it hardly seems productive to insist that a difference of opinion indicates a deficiency of intelligence. No, AAA games cost a lot because it requires a metric crapton of cash to employ all the programmers, artists, designers, voice actors, workflow managers, accountants etc. etc. that are required to produce an AAA title. If it cost a lot to make something, then you're going to need to charge a high price for your products - anything less and you're basically a very strange charity. That's easily understood, but the same justification cannot stand for Matrix games which, for all the love and care which goes into them, cannot possibly cost as much as an AAA game to produce, making it much harder for a consumer to approve of and accept the price, which I believe is what Dutchman is getting at.

[flibby]

Hmm, ill take steam over paying £40 for 6 year old games anyday.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Tomn

It is an objective fact that Matrix games tend to be more realistic than more mainstream titles.

This statement itself has a subjective in it. "Realistic." Perhaps you meant "more researched", but so far as I know it's not possible to research the province of Skyrim or the New Vegas Mojave in real life. If you meant graphically I'd say you're wrong; counters are as far from realistic as is possible to get in a game. If you mean OOB, fine. But a lot of AAA games don't have such things. They have characters.

The "gameplay versus graphics" thing is as old as PC games. Certainly goes back to the 80s for sure. It's usually the refuge argument when the graphics are bad. For most modern gamers, including us fossils, games are in large part visual and aural entertainment. A main reason I quickly put WITE on a shelf but play WITP-AE every day is the graphical and animation differences. I thought I could get past counters in the former, but I couldn't. Just by using icons and not counters, and by putting in even rudimentary combat animation sequences, AE manages to keep me.

OTOH, I can walk around Skyrim for hours just looking at stuff, talking to townspeople, fishing, chopping wood, ogling bar maids. I'll get to the quests someday. Is that "gameplay"? To me it is. I go back to 8-bit "Wizardry" on an Apple IIe and Skyrim is the very first RPG where I feel as if I'm in a real world with real flesh and blood denizens. It can only get better in that genre. A wargame has to hit on every single cylinder to get me away from that or a game like Civ 5.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: Tomn
ate to say that their "production values" are top-notch, whereas Matrix production values are generally mediocre at best, focusing as they do instead on realism and gameplay instead of things like interface design.

One thing I'd like to point out, by the way - AAA games don't cost a lot because "Hurf durf idiots are willing to pay through the nose for worthless rubbish." The same might be said of Matrix Games, after all, if you're of the subjective opinion that realism and the sort of gameplay found in wargames isn't worth much, so it hardly seems productive to insist that a difference of opinion indicates a deficiency of intelligence. No, AAA games cost a lot because it requires a metric crapton of cash to employ all the programmers, artists, designers, voice actors, workflow managers, accountants etc. etc. that are required to produce an AAA title. If it cost a lot to make something, then you're going to need to charge a high price for your products - anything less and you're basically a very strange charity. That's easily understood, but the same justification cannot stand for Matrix games which, for all the love and care which goes into them, cannot possibly cost as much as an AAA game to produce, making it much harder for a consumer to approve of and accept the price, which I believe is what Dutchman is getting at.

I'd agree with pretty much all of that, and thank you for putting it more clearly than I had, or would.

I see many Matrix games as quality products. I just don't see them as of a quality that justifies a $60-100 price tag, especially when the major justification I see for such prices is "Our customers wouldn't value our games if they were priced lower." That's BS in a business model unless it belongs to Cristal, Rolex, Rolls Royce, or the like. And Matrix is a good company but it is along the lines of Martini & Rossi sparkling wine, Timex, Chevrolet, etc. I'll pay sparkling wine, sturdy watch, car made for the masses prices when I'm offered same...but I won't pay a premium for same.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

LOL Assassin's Creed a AAA title lmfao. It's hardly a AAA title in the wargames dept. Might be for kiddyland or candyland games but not wargames.

We're talking game purchases. Say we have a game that focuses on quantum mechanics and not wargames, but draws the customer away. It is relevant because the customer looks at both in their purchase decision. I said the hobby and Matrix do not live in a bubble. The same applies to Matrix's customers...well, most of Matrix's customers.

I personally am not a fan of either AC or COD, but I recognize the amount of man hours, work, and quality programming that goes into such a product. I also recognize (as in I have seen mentioned in these forums) that a heckuva lot of Matrix's customer base do play such games.

As for "kiddyland or candyland games", shall we take a close look at what Matrix has released for the iOS?

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I'd rather pay 10 minimum hourly wages for a game like Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm, than spend 10 hours playing Call of Duty for free, because the gameplay of the latter is an insult to my intelligence.

And that's your prerogative.

But if you want to say that the larger game industry has no effect on Matrix and its products, that AAA titles can be ignored, then you're dead wrong.

It is the equivalent of every auto manufacturer offering manual transmission at no extra charge, except for Matrix Motors. And when questioned on it Matrix Motors just says that customers wouldn't value their products if the car was cheaper in price, and Matrix Motors customers leap up and said "How can you compare this car to other cars? This one is from Matrix Motors!", as if that was explanation enough.

Matrix Motors is the Mercedes Benz of all the types of wargames out there of any type. So yeah people will see the difference. They know when they goto Matrix Motors they are getting a "specific" brand of wargames therefore all the other junk on other lots does not matter in the least. Just like a Mercedes Benz sticks out like a sore thumb on the highway so to does Matrix Motors games in the gaming world.

[Tomn]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Matrix Motors is the Mercedes Benz of all the types of wargames out there of any type. So yeah people will see the difference. They know when they goto Matrix Motors they are getting a "specific" brand of wargames therefore all the other junk on other lots does not matter in the least. Just like a Mercedes Benz sticks out like a sore thumb on the highway so to does Matrix Motors games in the gaming world.

Well...no, not exactly.

The reason why Mercedes Benz cars (or other luxury car brands, for that matter) are so highly priced has much less to do with their quality (which is high, let's be clear - I'm not saying Benz makes crappy cars), and has much more to do with conspicuous consumption. It's about inspiring jealousy and envy in the hearts of those who cannot afford to spend their hard-earned money on such things as overpriced cars. It's about making people think "Damn, I wish I could be successful enough to drive a Mercedes Benz."

"Jealousy and envy" is not exactly how I would characterize the reaction of most gamers towards someone with a full stable of Matrix games. Incredulous indifference ("You paid HOW much for HOW many games?") or outright ignorance ("Matrix who?") is going to be far more likely. That's not really the kind of setup that, by itself, justifies luxury pricing strategies.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Matrix Motors is the Mercedes Benz of all the types of wargames out there of any type. So yeah people will see the difference. They know when they goto Matrix Motors they are getting a "specific" brand of wargames therefore all the other junk on other lots does not matter in the least. Just like a Mercedes Benz sticks out like a sore thumb on the highway so to does Matrix Motors games in the gaming world.

I'd echo what Tomn is saying and add that the analogy is more accurate if you take away the "manufacturer = Mercedes" and replace it with "customer will only buy a car made in Yugoslavia".

There are no AAA in quality computer wargames that I can think of. The only one that even comes close is XCOM, and it is fictional, tactical, and...I struggle for the qualifier, but "not niche enough for the PC wargamer" is the closest I can get. Oh...Combat Mission...but again, only tactical, and has certainly had its bugs in the past.

So a PC wargamer does not have a plethora of choices. And there's the dealer at Matrix Motors, glint in his eye, awaiting the chap who pretty much has nowhere else to go (he's been buying up all the other local Yugoslavian car dealerships to "smooth out the prices", although it hasn't gone unnoticed that some of those prices have smoothed upwards) saying "Welcome, friend. Don't worry, I wouldn't think of offending you by giving you a deal, a discerning car collector like yourself would only pay top dollar!" And then he leads the customer over to the refreshment table for some biscuits and Kool-Aid...

[bairdlander2]

My 2 cents here is if a title released more than 5 years ago,reduce the price,but with Matrix ,never,because their arguement is and always will be ``its a niche market`fuck off

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

My 2 cents here is if a title released more than 5 years ago,reduce the price,but with Matrix ,never ...

Bairdlander,

Are we not, at the moment, in the Holiday Sale period?

Best wishes,
Steve

[catwhoorg]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

My 2 cents here is if a title released more than 5 years ago,reduce the price,but with Matrix ,never ...

Bairdlander,

Are we not, at the moment, in the Holiday Sale period?

Best wishes,
Steve

At a quick count, 106 SKUs at 30-35%ish discount.

[bean5671]

fact

I own 15 matrix titles and will be getting 3 or 4 more for xmas if my wife listens to me (yea right)

I will not buy a single game that requires steam

you can release it on steam but do not require me to have a steam account to play it
I will not create a steam account until they allow family accounts ie I play one game under my account on my pc my son plays another game under the same account on his laptop, my youngest plays yet a different game under my account on a third PC
I got banned from the steam forums for just asking if this was possible before I created an account

I will buy the game once install it on all my machines (5) and everyone in my household can play it

that is why i will not buy anygame the requires a steam account

[bean5671]

dub deleted

[bean5671]

this is why i will not use steam I have kids steam needs to allow sub accounts

ORIGINAL: wodin

personally I have no issues with Steam. The only pain is because I didn't think ahead I bought games for my daughter under my account which ha snow been hijacked by her. So when she is on I can't play. Thats my only issue. I've got many games that cost buttons, ones I'd never have paid full price for but did when they where heavily reduced. So Steam really doesn't bother me at all. All publishers can be looked at in a negative way as their a middle man between the talent and the customer.

[Missouri_Rebel]

Hypothetically speaking, if Matrix games sold like hot-cakes on Steam and they were asked by Steam to make their products exclusive to them, I have no doubt they would do so. Who could blame them? After all they are running a business and not a charity. The bottom line dictates their priorities too.

Steam wouldn't bother me so bad if you were given a working copy of your game in the event of them failing. I have about 10 games from Gamerssgate, and to be honest, Im not sure how long they are going to last considering Steams hold on the market. What will become of those games I purchased? The same could very well happen to Steam in the future. Not likely anytime soon, but things change.

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Hypothetically speaking, if Matrix games sold like hot-cakes on Steam and they were asked by Steam to make their products exclusive to them, I have no doubt they would do so. Who could blame them? After all they are running a business and not a charity. The bottom line dictates their priorities too.

Steam wouldn't bother me so bad if you were given a working copy of your game in the event of them failing. I have about 10 games from Gamerssgate, and to be honest, Im not sure how long they are going to last considering Steams hold on the market. What will become of those games I purchased? The same could very well happen to Steam in the future. Not likely anytime soon, but things change.

I think at some point Steam the Store will need to be separated from Steam the Distribution channel/DRM/Multiplayer framework. That's a legitimate long-term concern for the future of the industry and it's going to be awkward for Valve as a company.

But the reason that problem exists is because Steam is just a hundred times more convenient than anything else around.

e: I don't think Valve have ever asked for exclusives. Paradox are moving over because it's a terrible business decision to spend 50% of their time working on patches for a version of their games that 5-10% of their users use. Other people (CA, Firaxis) are making the jump because the bundle of goodness that Steamworks offers (plug-in multiplayer frameworks, non-intrusive DRM, Steam Workshop) is just too much to pass up on.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: bean5671
this is why i will not use steam I have kids steam needs to allow sub accounts

"Family sharing" is a thing that's currently in testing for just this reason.

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel
Hypothetically speaking, if Matrix games sold like hot-cakes on Steam and they were asked by Steam to make their products exclusive to them, I have no doubt they would do so. Who could blame them? After all they are running a business and not a charity. The bottom line dictates their priorities too.

Steam wouldn't bother me so bad if you were given a working copy of your game in the event of them failing. I have about 10 games from Gamerssgate, and to be honest, Im not sure how long they are going to last considering Steams hold on the market. What will become of those games I purchased? The same could very well happen to Steam in the future. Not likely anytime soon, but things change.

For what it's worth, there are more than a few games that run on absolute-zero DRM even if they're bought/run through Steam - as in you can copy the folder off, put it on a thumbdrive and play it elsewhere without going through the client (which is incidentally more than I can say for Matrix's system).

This is obviously not a foolproof solution, especially since more and more games are pure Steamworks, and doesn't help you retain an installer for the game, but the tech to strip away the dependency on Steam altogether does exist.

[histgamer]

Gamersgate and Gog for that matter are likely safe for awhile. While steam has a huge hold of the market the digital distribution market as a whole has been growing steadily for several years. gamers and gog could be in trouble but my bet is it will be a few years until that happens. Once the market stops growing and begins consolidating that's when those firms will likely be in trouble.

GamersGate does a couple of things that I really like, they either give you the exec and that lets you keep a backup of the game, or they give you a code which is activated on Steam thus negating the risk of Steam taking out GamersGate.

However right now digital distribution is much like the cellphone market was in the 90s and early 2000s, the market is growing rapidly and everyone big and small seems to be benefiting from that, once saturation hits then Steam will be the Verizon/AT&T to the market while the other guys will be like a US Cellular or other regional carriers which either have been or are being squeezed out of the market. Still a few years away from that probably though.

The platforms in more immediate danger likely are Stormpowered and other very small digital platforms.

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Hypothetically speaking, if Matrix games sold like hot-cakes on Steam and they were asked by Steam to make their products exclusive to them, I have no doubt they would do so. Who could blame them? After all they are running a business and not a charity. The bottom line dictates their priorities too.

Steam wouldn't bother me so bad if you were given a working copy of your game in the event of them failing. I have about 10 games from Gamerssgate, and to be honest, Im not sure how long they are going to last considering Steams hold on the market. What will become of those games I purchased? The same could very well happen to Steam in the future. Not likely anytime soon, but things change.

[Missouri_Rebel]

(which is incidentally more than I can say for Matrix's system)

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. There are no such restrictions on any Matrix games.

[Missouri_Rebel]

As I stated previously, I was late to the party with Steam, but I have bought several in the past year, 2 this past week. I bought 2 huge games with tons of content for $40.

Again, if they gave me the executable I'd be much happier to spend my money there.