H2H - Wishlist

Irinami · Post by **Irinami** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:34 pm

Wouldn't moving it to slot 2 make it only one of the 'Misc Small Arms' category? That is...

Weapon Slot 1 on infantry is actually one of that weapon for every single man in the squad, right? So one of those ungodly 10-man artillery crews dismounted has a whopping 10 'Misc Small Arms.' Now that's pretty badass. It is comparable to the Mp28, Mp 38/40, the MAS 38, possibly even the M-1 carbine or Mp44! Now sure, that's fine when you're considering it an MG-34 off a Nazi halftrack... but the weapon also has to count as the pistols some members of, say, the 15-man-crew of a Land Mattress might be carrying (or the 8-man crew of a flak unit, or whatever). What this would mean is the crew of the Land Mattress, if Misc Small Arms are in slot 1, is more deadly with their pistols and maybe an SMG or two, than the 4 men of an SdKfz 251/9 halftrack with their 2 MG-34's, whatever crew weapons they had, AND likely more experience and certainly more training for dismounted combat.

Now, put that Misc Small Arms in slot #2, and it evens things out a bit. IM(ns)HO.

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:05 pm

Originally posted by tracer
...as it stands now folks too often use crews as disposable shock troops.

Guilty!:o

tracer · Post by **tracer** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:08 am

Originally posted by rbrunsman
Guilty!:o

Who isn't?

chief · Post by **chief** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 9:58 am

I should send them back for R & R after they lose a vehicle, I'll bet they'll even want me to supply them with a ride also. Never happen.

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 9:14 pm

well...noone interested in play testing the changed H2H OOB files from previous page (9)?

As said..it just has the crew unit edited (weapon slot2 + Inf-AT class) and otherwise is 100% compatible with the "H2H ce" version OOBs.

So I think you guys want to stick with the gamey crews??

VikingNo2 · Post by **VikingNo2** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:51 pm

I'll play test where do I get them again?

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:46 am

Will Soviet 57mm ATG and SU-57 carry APRC Ammo in the newest version?

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:52 am

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo
Will Soviet 57mm ATG and SU-57 carry APRC Ammo in the newest version?

Sure hope not... :rolleyes: The SU-57 is l e t h a l considering it's points worth already....

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:03 am

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo
Will Soviet 57mm ATG and SU-57 carry APRC Ammo in the newest version?

4 rounds for the towed gun, none for the ZIS-30...I don't know of APCR rounds produced by Russians for the British/US 57mm gun of the SU-57...if someone has a reference, I can think it over

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:56 pm

Originally posted by rbrunsman
V2, you really don't like crews do you?;)

Me Niether! KIll em all!!!
LOL

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 11:35 pm

Originally posted by VikingNo2
I'll play test where do I get them again?

please check page 9 of this thread!

thanks

Trey · Post by **Trey** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:33 am

Any news as to the ETA???

Thanks

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:30 pm

Originally posted by Trey
Any news as to the ETA???

Thanks

Tough to say...as it looks now, Harry and Tracer are driving themselves into a super-creative-graphics-development-amok-run, I don't want to end prematurely

I'm just thrilled like all others by what these guys come up with and every piece of their work is it worth to wait a bit...

The most important changes to the OOBs should be finished now, leaving only cosmetic and final touches...the changes include, e.g. :

- the whole crew issue (downgraded effectiveness and no use of smoke)

- small arms for guns

- move & fire for MMGs

- some reworked OOBs, like the Finnish and parts of the Russian

- heavy Flak no move & fire any more

to name a few...

I also got inspired by the discussion on improving the original OOBs and tested now the "*" - enemy presence issue...

It showed very clearly, that there is a pretty easy way of misusing this feature beyond it's intention and it does influence PBEM games a lot...as H2H is focused on human vs human play, I decided to disable this feature in general - that means there won't be any "*" shown at all. The "#", meaning this unit has been fired upon recently remains.

Also I'm thinking of "swapping" the unit classes of the "heavy flak" and "infantry guns", the way that infantry guns actually can move & fire...they were used that way (like rushing 50m forward in a street fighting and open fire without need to dug in the legs of the mount) and I think the misuse like it happened with the heavy flak (load them into a transport, move them forward, dismount, fire load and disappear again) is rather unlikely, as risking a transport, that does cost equal or more then a gun with only short range accuracy and very limited AT-capability does not make that much sense in my eyes...but I'm still not fully decided...

...err, to answer your question, I think around 3-4 weeks, but I will delay if anything promising is still to come from our graphis division

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:12 pm

my shape graphics update part is more or less done and I´m just adding one or two more things that came up by user feedback.

I think tracer is almost finished too.

Joerg...were your smokeless crew tests successfull so far?

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:45 pm

Originally posted by RockinHarry

Joerg...were your smokeless crew tests successfull so far?

Yep, tests were quite successfull...but I was quite unhappy with the icon of Inf-AT units displaying for the crews now, so I switched to ski-troops. They don't have smoke either and display every crew member like normal infantry, exactly what I want. The only setback is, that they move as fast in snow as they do in summer, but their speed is only 6, so it is not really a big thing...they just can flee a bit more effective from the enemy in snow conditions. The small arms have been downgraded in effectiveness, but remain in slot 1, as this is the only way to have differing fire power delivered from a 1 man or a 20 men crew...
In my last test I blew up 20 tanks and crew was running all over the field and not a single smoke round popped...was great

No strange behaviour has been encountered sofar, including AI and campaign battles.

Irinami · Post by **Irinami** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:50 pm

I still contend that your bigger crews tend to have less effective weapons (personal sidearms) compared to your smaller crews (who may well have an AAMG), so in the end putting it in slot 2 is about the same. Remember, everyone would also have quite limited ammo.

Better minds than mine have weighed in on this, but that's my $0.02. More important to me is that the icon got changed to something more fitting.

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:51 pm

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
Yep, tests were quite successfull...but I was quite unhappy with the icon of Inf-AT units displaying for the crews now, so I switched to ski-troops. They don't have smoke either and display every crew member like normal infantry, exactly what I want. The only setback is, that they move as fast in snow as they do in summer, but their speed is only 6, so it is not really a big thing...they just can flee a bit more effective from the enemy in snow conditions. The small arms have been downgraded in effectiveness, but remain in slot 1, as this is the only way to have differing fire power delivered from a 1 man or a 20 men crew...
In my last test I blew up 20 tanks and crew was running all over the field and not a single smoke round popped...was great
No strange behaviour has been encountered sofar, including AI and campaign battles.

sounds good to me! My experiences were actually the same, with scenarios, generated battles and campaigns. Voluntarily crewing and re-crewing works as well.

I assume you also radio coded the crews to someting like x3 so they won´t be purchased by AIP routine when it looks for ski units?

Lars · Post by **Lars** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:14 pm

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
I also got inspired by the discussion on improving the original OOBs and tested now the "*" - enemy presence issue...

It showed very clearly, that there is a pretty easy way of misusing this feature beyond it's intention and it does influence PBEM games a lot...as H2H is focused on human vs human play, I decided to disable this feature in general - that means there won't be any "*" shown at all. The "#", meaning this unit has been fired upon recently remains.

Wow, I can't tell you how gretful I am for this. I've had a talk with Paul Vebber regarding this matter, but he didn't give me any hope.
I feel like going down on my knees and kiss your feet...

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
Also I'm thinking of "swapping" the unit classes of the "heavy flak" and "infantry guns", the way that infantry guns actually can move & fire...they were used that way (like rushing 50m forward in a street fighting and open fire without need to dug in the legs of the mount) and I think the misuse like it happened with the heavy flak (load them into a transport, move them forward, dismount, fire load and disappear again) is rather unlikely, as risking a transport, that does cost equal or more then a gun with only short range accuracy and very limited AT-capability does not make that much sense in my eyes...but I'm still not fully decided...

If you decide to make this swap, I hope you intend this for the smaller cal's only?
If used with big guns it may be as "gamey" as with the FlaK issue.

Thanks

/Lars

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:52 am

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
I also got inspired by the discussion on improving the original OOBs and tested now the "*" - enemy presence issue...

It showed very clearly, that there is a pretty easy way of misusing this feature beyond it's intention and it does influence PBEM games a lot...as H2H is focused on human vs human play, I decided to disable this feature in general - that means there won't be any "*" shown at all. The "#", meaning this unit has been fired upon recently remains.

I think there is value in knowing if a unit you have already spotted has, in turn, spotted you. It is quite obvious in real battles whether you have been seen or not by a unit you are watching. The enemy's change in body language would be obvious as soon as he spots you. Sort of an "OH, ****!!":eek: look would happen.

I can, for argument's sake, agree that if I don't see anyone, I shouldn't know if I have been seen by the appearance of the *. However, it is very important and realistic for me to know if a unit I see has seen me. It will effect whether I take the 150 yard shot at him or wait for him to get a little closer.

Can't we have a middle ground rather than have the * always on or always off? I think always off is swinging the pendullum too far the other way.

Lars · Post by **Lars** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:25 am

Originally posted by rbrunsman
I think there is value in knowing if a unit you have already spotted has, in turn, spotted you. It is quite obvious in real battles whether you have been seen or not by a unit you are watching. The enemy's change in body language would be obvious as soon as he spots you. Sort of an "OH, ****!!":eek: look would happen.

I can, for argument's sake, agree that if I don't see anyone, I shouldn't know if I have been seen by the appearance of the *. However, it is very important and realistic for me to know if a unit I see has seen me. It will effect whether I take the 150 yard shot at him or wait for him to get a little closer.

Can't we have a middle ground rather than have the * always on or always off? I think always off is swinging the pendullum too far the other way.

It is of course a matter of opinion, but I don't agree with you rbrunsman.
The use of the "willy meter" is way too gamey to be anywhere near real battle. In the game, if you come 150 yards from the enemy without being shot at and with cautious movement and descent experienced troop, there is a good chance you didn't get seen. But you can't be certain and that's the point. With the * you get to know things you shouldn't know.

The middle ground is not an option, since it requires a change to the mech.exe.

H2H - Wishlist

what

Soviet 57mmATG and APCR

Re: Soviet 57mmATG and APCR

Re: Soviet 57mmATG and APCR