Panzer Division = SUPER MAN

[GamesaurusRex]

And for Morvael's ease of reference I would offer a useful source about the attrition effects of combat on German forces...

Read Chapter 12, entitled 'Victored to Death', of the book War Without Garlands by Robert J. Kershaw.

Read that and you will know what is wrong with the current state of the game balance. The mechanics of the game are not imposing anywhere near realistic levels of attrition on units for the simple act of movement... much less combat.
In reality, the German's won so much and frequently that it killed them.

[elloboloco]

Is the HG buildup scenario posted by Djouk above true?

[Djouk]

It seems true as you can see in this Thread
tm.asp?m=4479611

I understand what Hardluck tried to explain, but he just needed my proofs. Hard to inflict damages on panzers on hqbuild always full and ready or some others obscurs explanations.

[thedoctorking]

I think the current patch is pretty balanced. I'm getting chewed up pretty bad as the Germans in 1942, and I'm not an entirely inexperienced player.

[chaos45]

no offense doctorking, but your german opening was alot weaker than normal. This allowed the Soviet player in your game to save a massive amount of additional forces that in a more competitive game they wouldn't have access to.

[thedoctorking]

Yeah, still learning. There's a lot I'd do differently now.

I just got a new game against a very aggressive German player. We'll see how it works out for him. I'm still unconvinced that the only thing the Russians can do in 1941-42 is run for the Urals.

[Nix77]

I don't have too much experience on the 1.11.01 patch, but seems to me TheDoctorKing is advancing quite slowly with the panzer spearheads in the AAR against Isaac, so that's probably not a good example on current gameplay balance.

In a game of WitE's magnitude and scope, getting a large enough sample of evenly matched gameplay to make calls on balance is unfortunately quite impossible.

I don't know if we have even seen a single example of an "evenly matched" game here in the forums. It's a rare case for an AAR to come even close. In almost all games the experience and skill level of the players vary, and on top of that both of the players make mistakes and unorthodox tactical and strategic choices that just cause any effort to judge gameplay balance go haywire

On the subject of "Run to the Urals" (up the Irons!), I comply with TheDoctorKing: I think the Soviets can do well with a carefully planned forward defense that slows the German advance just enough. If I'm wrong, then I think there's something to be corrected in the game

[Crackaces]

1) Do not forget the logistics phase when you count battle casualties. Push an armored unit back across a river or through 2 ZOC's and the logistics phase will show a much worse result.

2) Certain Soviets have perfected the "Soaking attack". Taking weak units and attacking a unit for the sole purpose of depleting ammo. Thus, a change in operational moves to keep panzers from getting smacked by these attacks. But should a Panzer get too far out it is quite possible to set up an attack that pushes a division through ZOC's. The battle report might show 10 AFV's, lost but again the Logistics phase will show a different story.

3) For the superman panzer divisions .. German's are still resigning turns 5-12 ... [:'(] There seems to be some complexities to this game to fully take advantage of this exploit. [8D]

[thedoctorking]

I'm advancing about as fast as I can, given the supply problems. When a panzer division has like 15 MP's, my philosophy is that you are better off sitting quietly with it and trying to build up fuel, or doing an HQBU if you have the AP's to spare.

I am playing a game against a very aggressive German opponent who has allowed me to isolate whole panzer armies twice now. That's got to be bad for his supply situation.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I'm advancing about as fast as I can, given the supply problems. When a panzer division has like 15 MP's, my philosophy is that you are better off sitting quietly with it and trying to build up fuel, or doing an HQBU if you have the AP's to spare.

I am playing a game against a very aggressive German opponent who has allowed me to isolate whole panzer armies twice now. That's got to be bad for his supply situation.

Yeah, I was worried about the German supply after the patch, but haven't really had the time to test it out. I was using HQBU really aggressively before 1.11.00, so I guess I would be advancing way more slowly too

I'm acting as a "second-in-command" or kind of a sideline advisor in a game that my friend is playing, and the German player is really having trouble advancing with the panzers, but I don't think he's concentrating forces enough. The front will be west of Nikolaev-Kiev-Vitebsk-Velikie Luki line after the blizzard, and the panzers don't seem that super at all

[thedoctorking]

Yes, I am the Germans in a game against Sparkleytits, so a very experienced German playing as the Russians this time. My 1941 offensive got to the outskirts of Rostov and Voronezh in the south, Vitebsk in the center, but not even past Pskov in the north (my priority was to be prepared to take the Caucasus in 1942; shows you what I know).

His blizzard counteroffensive took me back to about the bend of the Dnepr, Kharkov, and Smolensk, then basically along the Lithuania-Estonia border. My 1942 summer offensives went basically nowhere. I was able to puncture his front but on a narrow line. I was concentrating two panzer armies for dual thrusts in the south and center at first. Then, I decided I'd better do one big push, so I took advantage of weakness along the land bridge and got back about to Smolensk before he could rally troops to stop me. Both times, I killed significant numbers of Russians - over 100,000 a turn - but he had plenty of reserves. By the end of summer, I went over to the defensive, counter-punching when he would attack. His offensives didn't go anywhere either. I had the fun of cutting off a whole Guards Tank Army in one big battle up in southern Estonia.

But basically, I wasn't able to go anywhere against an experienced opponent. Panzer divisions are anything but supermen.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Nada

[beender]

Now that i'm playing as soviet, i get to understand this issue: no matter what i do with German panzers, regiment or division, routed or long-forced retreat, they just don't lose many. And I lose a lot. I agree something need to done so that more losses, men and tanks, should be incurred at least when the German panzer units are defeated in a battle.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: beender

Now that i'm playing as soviet, i get to understand this issue: no matter what i do with German panzers, regiment or division, routed or long-forced retreat, they just don't lose many. And I lose a lot. I agree something need to done so that more losses, men and tanks, should be incurred at least when the German panzer units are defeated in a battle.

Look after the logistics phase. The battle reports do not show all the tanks lost.

I just posted what I think is an interesting combat report in the 8MP.
Soviets do a bunch of soaking attacks drawing in panzers set in reserve. 27 damged .. the logitics phase (it is blizzard) was not kind.
Now we convince Morvel to make a change to nerf panzers .. Germans quit in the blizzard game goes into obsolence ..

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: beender

Now that i'm playing as soviet, i get to understand this issue: no matter what i do with German panzers, regiment or division, routed or long-forced retreat, they just don't lose many. And I lose a lot. I agree something need to done so that more losses, men and tanks, should be incurred at least when the German panzer units are defeated in a battle.

Attack the german Infantry and if you can work it out any unit with support units attached.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: beender

Now that i'm playing as soviet, i get to understand this issue: no matter what i do with German panzers, regiment or division, routed or long-forced retreat, they just don't lose many. And I lose a lot. I agree something need to done so that more losses, men and tanks, should be incurred at least when the German panzer units are defeated in a battle.

Look after the logistics phase. The battle reports do not show all the tanks lost.

I just posted what I think is an interesting combat report in the 8MP.
Soviets do a bunch of soaking attacks drawing in panzers set in reserve. 27 damged .. the logitics phase (it is blizzard) was not kind.
Now we convince Morvel to make a change to nerf panzers .. Germans quit in the blizzard game goes into obsolence ..

My question here is Are we playing a game or a Barbarossa simulation? If the latter then yes check out what happens in the logistics phase and let the computer do it all, play in the editor to change some items and come back in a couple of weeks...

If it is a game then increase the excitement value by giving the player some reward for attacking a Panzer division.

[thedoctorking]

My reward for attacking a panzer division is that if I win (even at great cost) I get the hex. If it is a hex that opens a pocket or pockets some German armored spearheads, it pays off in a big way. Opening a pocket means that those units will live another turn and continue to screw up German movement with ZOC's (since they will not be in "isolated" status during the subsequent German turn and so can only be routed or shattered by German attacks, not surrendered). Pocketing German spearheads means that they won't draw supplies in the subsequent logistics phase, further slowing the German advance. It's all about limiting how far the Germans can go with those panzers before the rains start.

[GamesaurusRex]

If the German Player has not isolated Leningrad by turn six or seven, he doesn't understand how to use the Panzer Ball.

And if the Russian attempts to defend the Pskov line to prevent the seven turn miracle... he doesn't understand what the Pazer Ball will do to his troops when they get to Pskov.

Once the Russian understands, there will be no defense of Pskov...

This is definitely a "game" and not a simulation...

[beender]

I don't think isolating leningrade by turn 7 is a must for axis, even if feasible. I believe this game is too complex to warrant a fixed pattern or formula, which is good and historical.

Personally i only successfully isolated the north once, and that was T11. But that didn't prevent an early axis victory, so perhaps it is not a necessary condition to isolate leningrade before a certain date.

[Icier]

ORIGINAL: beender

I don't think isolating leningrade by turn 7 is a must for axis, even if feasible. I believe this game is too complex to warrant a fixed pattern or formula, which is good and historical.

Personally i only successfully isolated the north once, and that was T11. But that didn't prevent an early axis victory, so perhaps it is not a necessary condition to isolate leningrade before a certain date.

Unfortunately, you are talking from ignorance....have a look @ the games by CHOAS45 & Pelton ( although PeLton games may have been scrubbed for being naughty).

These 2 players would regularly Take Leningrad by turn 7.