Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues

[Dreamslayer]

Status of units in start setup.

When I open normal GC scenario in the editor I can see that some units has:
reserve mode - very many units has it, even units in deep rear areas, even fort regions(!) has this status (really?)
refit mode
high % of damaged ground elements - some around half
high % of dispupted ground elements - some units has higher than 75%

So, why is it?

[Denniss]

PVO AA Bns are for initial setup only, the same setup is buildable as AA Bn (just without PVO in name). There's still the 2-bn PVO AA Rgt to build if one wants some flavor.

[Dreamslayer]

Frozen units of Transcaucasus M.D.(part 1)


(British column and Soviet armored car BA-10M in Iran. September 1941)

Units that unfreezes on T200:

76th Mountain division -
on 22 June was located in Nakhitchevan area(out of the game map); from 25 August was used (47th A) during the intervention to Iran; 25 September was returned to Nakhitchevan; 28 September was moved to the front and takes defense in sector of 38th A(between Kharkov-Poltava); 9 December was reformed to Rifle division.

63th Mountain division -
on 22 June was located in Kirovakan area(out of the game map); from 25 August was used (47th A) during the intervention to Iran; in December was moved to Tuapse; on 28 December was loaded on transports and 29 December was landed(44th A) in Feodosiya during Feodosiya-Kerch amphibious operation.

24th Cavalry division -
on 22 June was located in Kirovabad area(out of the game map); 25-30 July was reformed(during reforming to new Shtat on basis of the division was deployed 23th Cavalry division and 24th Tank regiment); from 25 August these units was used during the intervention to Iran; 24th CavD was first unit that entered Tehran; 29 October 24th CavD returns back; from 13 November 24th CavD on Western Front.

31th Rifle division -
on 22 June was located in Erevan and border area(out of the game map); from 7 October was moved to the front; on 10 October unloading in Mius river area.

9th Mountain division -
as division was involved to battle for Caucasian Mountains(Ridge?) from August 1942; before it some regiments was used in various operations(e.g. Feodosiya-Kerch amphibious operation).

[Dreamslayer]

Tanks in Cavalry divisions on T1.

Looks like Cavalry divisions missed all their tanks and armored cars in the start setup.
Pre-war Cavalry division had in their Shtat(TOE) 64 tanks(BT, no any T-37-40) and 18 armored cars. But in the start setup in the game there are zero of them in actual TOE.

On 27 October 1940:
CavD #(tank rgt #) - number of tanks and armored cars
3(44) – 4 BT-2 and 35 BT-5; 13 AC
14(29)– 34 BT-2; 17 AC
5(32) – 14 BT-2 and 32 BT-5; 10 AC
32(18) – 34 BT-2; 17 AC

On 1 November 1940:
6(35) – 48 BT; 9 AC
36(8) – 52 BT; 17 AC
24(24)– 62 T-26; 18 AC

9th CavD – I have found only this atm (from book of ex-commander 2nd Cav Corps Belov) – both cavalry divisions of corps had around 50 tanks and 10 AC each on June 1941.

[Dreamslayer]

26th DBAD

In the game subordinated to Transcaucasus Air Command. Actually was directly subordinated to Long Range Command.
Airbases of the division - Kutaisi, Vaziani(Baziani), Evlakh, Kirovabad.
At start of the war had 4 air regiments(DBAP) – 6th, 12th, 42th and 83th. Probably 12th rgt had name TBAP because at first used TB-3.
At the beginning of August at basis of 26th DBAD air regiments was deployed 4 2-regiments air divisions(DBAD) - 132th, 133th and 134th.
Each air regiment deployed one additional:
6th - 453th (132th DBAD)
12th - 454th (134th DBAD)
42th - 455th (133th DBAD)
83th - 452th (26th DBAD)

On 11 November 1941 air regiments of 26th DBAD started to relocating to Rybinsk area.
Reformed to 1st TAD(Transportnaya Avia Diviziya).
On 28 July 1942 was reformed to 1st AD DD(Avia Diviziya Dal'nevo Deystviya).
Was part of 7th AK DD(Avia Korpus DD).
On 26 December 1944 was renamed to 1st BAD.
Was part of 3rd GBAK(Gvardeyskiy Bombardirovochnyy Avia Korpus).

In the Active Army as:
13.10.41 - 06.03.42 (26th DBAD)
01.05.42 - 28.07.42 (1st TAD)
28.07.42 - 26.12.44 (1st AD DD)
26.12.44 - 09.05.45 (1st BAD)
I think better to place this division to Tbilisi or 1 hex to east(as presence of Vaziani(Baziani)airbase).

[Dreamslayer]

IADs of BAKs.

By pre-war plans each BAK was supposed to consist of 2 DBAD and 1 IAD. But at start of the war these IADs and their IAPs was only at stage of forming.

To 1st BAK was subordinated 56th IAD.
198th IAP and 199th IAP (both located in Velikie Luki also as IAD's HQ).On 1 September both rgt was disbanded.
On August 1941 IAD was relocated to Yaroslavl.
On 18 August 1941 IAD was reformed to 2nd Reserve Airgroup(Rezervnaya aviagruppa/RAG).
On 8 August 1942 2nd RAG was reformed to 278th IAD.

To 2nd BAK was subordinated 67th IAD.
HQ in Graivoron(near Borisovka).
256th-258th IAPs.
On July IAD was disbanded, looks like IAPs too.
So in the game this unit can be ignored(as we see already).

To 3rd BAK was subordinated 61th IAD (HQ – Krichev).
179th-181th IAPs.
On July IAD was reformed to 61th SAD.
On 8 February 1942 was turned to forming of VVS of 13th Army.

To 4th BAK was subordinated 66th IAD (HQ – Nikopol).
246th,295th-297th IAPs.
On 9 July IAD was reformed to 66th SAD.
On 28 April 1942 66th SAD was disbanded.

With rare exception IAPs of these IADs on 22 June had no(or minimum)planes.

[Dreamslayer]

38th IAD.

I think not only me was confused by this unit in the start setup. Subordinated to Western Front but located so far away and frozen.

At start of the war 38th IAD was in VVS of Transbaikal M.D./Zabaykalskiy VO.
From 13 July to 29 July was subordinated to VVS of Reserve Armies Front/ Front Rezervnyh Armiy.
29 July – 12 October was subordinated to VVS of Reserve Front.
On 24 August was reformed to 38th SAD.
12 October – 24 December was subordinated to VVS of Western Front.
24 December – 28 February was subordinated to VVS of Kalinin Front.
On 28 February 1942 38th SAD was used for forming VVS of 39th Army.

In the game has :
6 IAP – at start of the war was in Far East Front, 19-20 July arrived to Borisoglebsk, had 64 a/c, was divided to two IAPs with same name. (never was in 38th IAD)
13 IAP - (in the unit from 22 June to 1 Sep)
515 IAP

Actually (also) had:
12 IAP(3) – was deployed by 13 IAP (13 July – 30 Oct), probably this rgt was renamed to 515 IAP on 20 September.
8 IAP – (18 June-24 Aug)
423 IAP – (8 Aug-14 Sep)

I suggest to remove this IAD and IAPs from the game map and add as reinforcement (subordinated to Stavka).

Also while digging info about this IAD I have found missed in the game 31th SAD.

31th SAD at start of the war was in Far East Front(VVS of 2nd Army).
13 July – 29 July was subordinated to VVS of Reserve Armies Front/ Front Rezervnyh Armiy.
29 July – August was subordinated to VVS of Reserve Front.
August – 24 December was subordinated to VVS of Western Front.
24 December – 10 January 1942 was subordinated to VVS of Kalinin Front.
10 January 1942 – 28 February 1942 was subordinated to VVS of 39th Army(Kalinin Front).
28 February 1942 31th SAD was used for forming VVS of 39th Army.

Had units after arriving on West:
29 IAP – (Aug 1940-14 Nov 1941) had I-153/I-16
37 SBAP - (Aug 1940 – 25 Sep 1941) had SB

Also can be added as reinforcement (subordinated to Stavka).

[Dreamslayer]

NKVD operative forces (part 1).

NKVD had no less intricate structure than RKKA. In the game NKVD presented by border guards units and accidentally by 22nd NKVD Rifle Division(but has same TOE as normal RKKA's) in Riga.

NKVD operative forces/ operativnye voyska NKVD/ OV NKVD.

26 February 1941 was formed HQ OV/ Upravlenie OV .

OV structure on 28 February 1941:
(2nd column: actual men total in unit/ Shtat(TOE))



OMSDON – Dzerzhinskiy's Separate Moto-rifle Division OSNAZ/ otdelnaya motostrelkovaya diviziya osobovo naznacheniya imeni Dzerzhinskovo.

[Dreamslayer]

NKVD operative forces (part 2).

As well as RKKA NKVD also had their own pre-war mobilization plan. As well as RKKA's plan NKVD's plan was also broken and was performed with many changes.

OV structure after mobilization in first days:



In this table skipped (for simplify) OV units that located out of game map and units that less than regiment-size. For some units from the table will be additional remarks.

I guess in the game we can add OMSDON and 18 separate regiments because in the formations of deployed 21th,22th,23th MRDs and 76th MRBr they also was used mainly separately.
(Again for simplify) can be created 2 new TOE. 1 for OMSDON and 1 for 18 regiments. Because 15 of 18 regiments are MR let others 3 to be MR as well.
Main difference in these MRs was number of battalions(2 or 3).Average number total men in these regiments TOE's is 1556.

For basis of composition MR TOE can be used last(19 June) pre-war official peace-time Shtat(TOE)#10.
Men total - 1115.
76mm guns – 4
45mm AT guns – 4
82mm mortars – 4
50mm mortars – 12
HMG – 24
LMG DP – 52(or 72?)
BT-7 – 11
T-38 - 3
various cars(trucks,tractors etc) – 78

Structure :
HQ
Rifle btn (x2) – 260 men each
MG coy (x2) – 57 each
mortar platoon (x2) – 13 each
tank coy – 62
auto-battery 76mm guns – 71
AT battery 45mm guns – 41
sapper platoon - 27
various rear support units – about 234 (sorry my own maths)
(by the additional Directive men total has been increased by 130 to 1245)

If I understood correctly 82mm mortar platoons and AT batteries was added by this new Shtat. So it's unlikely that regiments that was involved to battles in first days could have these guns.

Ok, I'm not ready to say for 100% but looks like most of these 18 regiments was disbanded or was used for forming new units(new NKVD divisons) on start of January 1942.
How they was used in 1941. Some of them was used for garrison role in various cities like (Moscow,Baku,Leningrad etc.), so some units can be frozen. Some units was used in Front/Army level sometimes in frontline as normal RKKA's units.

On 22 June(looks like it before mobilization) in OV was 312 tanks(mainly BT), 69 of them in OMSDON.

[56ajax]

Hi Dreamslayer,

What was the operational purpose of these units? Internal security or military operations against a foreign power?

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hi Dreamslayer,

What was the operational purpose of these units? Internal security or military operations against a foreign power?

Hey John.

Looks like for both. Before the war they was for internal security,security of Fronts/M.D.s rears and for strengthening of NKVD border guards units in various border districts. But with start of the war various units of various military(and not only) departaments was used on front.

[Dreamslayer]

OMSDON

Elite(or even most elite)NKVD unit. Was used for garrison(e.g.goverment's buildings security) in Moscow and Moscow region, some units of division was used during Moscow defence battle. During mobilization in division was deployed OMSBON(Sep.Moto-rifle Brigade Osnaz),in some sources this brigade indicated as recon-sabotage or training.

OMSDON's "phase"structure (1st part - status on 28 Feb 1941, 2nd - pre-war mobilization plan, 3rd - actual status after deployment):

[Dreamslayer]

NKVD operative forces (part 3).

On 22 August 1941 was formed 1st Rifle Division.
Forming near Vaskelovo(north from Leningrad), was used Shtat of RKKA's RD (10881 men), actually had before relocating 10483(half from various NKVD units and others from marching battalions). On 29 August started relocating via RR to front to Mga area, there was involved to combat same evening. On 9 August 1942 was transferred to RKKA and renamed to 46th RD(3rd forming).

On 9 September 23th Moto-rifle Division(HQ?) disbanded.

On 13 September on basis of 20th “Security”Division was formed 20th Rifle Division (Leningrad).
3 rifle regiments(7th-9th), 6908 men total, at start of October was added new formed 10th rifle rgt.
On 17 November lost 5123 men(KIA/WIA/MIA).
On 28 July 1942 was transferred to RKKA, on 2 August 1942 was renamed to 92th RD(2nd forming).

On 7 October was formed 2nd MSDON ,to this unit was attached OMSBON.
Formed on basis of OMSDON that was divided and reorganized. After these changes OMSDON had new Shtat(13232 men), 2nd MSDON – (10857 men) and OMSBON(3114 men). Exluding brigade both divisions had composition – 3 moto-rifle rgt, art.rgt, tank btn, sapper btn and others small units. The 2nd also based in Moscow.

4 January 1942 – OV NKVD was renamed to VV NKVD (NKVD Internal Forces/ Vnutrennie voyska NKVD).

5 January – by NKVD's order was formed :
5th RD (Tikhvin)
6th RD (Kalinin)
7th MRD (Tula)
8th MRD (Voronezh)
9th MRD (Rostov)
10th RD (Stalingrad)
11th RD (Pyatigorsk)
12th RD (Saratov)
Each division had Shtat about 10k men total. For forming was used most of OV/VV NKVD regiments and lesser NKVD units.
by same order 21th MRD was renamed to 3rd RD (but in some documents this unit still had old name) and 22th MRD to 4th RD.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hi Dreamslayer,

What was the operational purpose of these units? Internal security or military operations against a foreign power?

Hey John.

Looks like for both. Before the war they was for internal security,security of Fronts/M.D.s rears and for strengthening of NKVD border guards units in various border districts. But with start of the war various units of various military(and not only) departaments was used on front.

Hey Dreamslayer,

Excellent work. If a unit is internal security then it is not included in the game and if military units are formed out of the cadre then you have to determine if it is already in the game and with what TOE %. Good luck with that. The game underestimates available soviet resources.

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Hey Dreamslayer,

Excellent work. If a unit is internal security then it is not included in the game and if military units are formed out of the cadre then you have to determine if it is already in the game and with what TOE %. Good luck with that. The game underestimates available soviet resources.

If we talking about Soviet side, then need to keep in mind that all these soviet units that was used during the war not only typical units of NKO("Ministry of Defense"). There are units of various "departments"(Commisariats)- NKO(typical ground forces ,PVO,VVS),NKVMF (Navy, naval aviation and various coastal forts),NKVD(border guard units, OV,"security" forces, convoy units),NKPS (railroads units), some construction's departments. All of them had their own structures and "pools". Of course with start of the war mobilization of reservists was performed by NKO, but each "department" had their own quota. Also between some influental Commisariats was some kind of rivalry. If necessary units or part of Commissariats's pools was transferred to others(mainly to NKO), e.g. we can see in the game many Naval brigades that was used on front.

I guess for simulation of these separate "pools" can be created separate producible NKVD squad ground element.Atm in the game is unproducible NKVD squad(type - HQ troops) that contains 11 men with 11 PPSh and 1 Hand Grenade - it's too confused. So with new reworked NKVD squad that can be produced under some limits game can be improved in this aspect. Something similar can be used for Naval infantry squads too.

Yes, some players can say why we need to discuss about unknown Naval or NKVD squads, or (what?) NKPS.
But in reality of real total war on Eastern Front everything was used.
As example from the game. In the Riga we can see 22nd NKVD Rifle division that has TOE as normal RKKA's RD. But actually it was formed on basis(by pre-war mobilization plan it should have been 1st,3rd and 5th NKVD rgts) of 5th NKVD Moto-rifle rgt, 83th NKVD RR "security" rgt, 155th NKVD convoy btn and consolidated local rgt(workers,cadets) - total about 4k men total.So was used everything that was around. 30 June 22nd "Division" due to the threat of encirclement and heavy losses retreated from city. Yes, during this battle various remains of retreated units of NW Front was there too.

Using of not-typical units in role of light infantry was standart practice(especially during critical situations), various battalions of workers, militia,etc.
I've also some ideas(as always) about "an adaptation" of some NKVD formations for the game.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

NKVD operative forces (part 1).

NKVD had no less intricate structure than RKKA. In the game NKVD presented by border guards units and accidentally by 22nd NKVD Rifle Division(but has same TOE as normal RKKA's) in Riga.

NKVD operative forces/ operativnye voyska NKVD/ OV NKVD.

26 February 1941 was formed HQ OV/ Upravlenie OV .

OV structure on 28 February 1941:
(2nd column: actual men total in unit/ Shtat(TOE))



OMSDON – Dzerzhinskiy's Separate Moto-rifle Division OSNAZ/ otdelnaya motostrelkovaya diviziya osobovo naznacheniya imeni Dzerzhinskovo.

fyi

I am quoting Askey - OMSDON was used for internal security and military parades in Moscow. Whilst elements did man the front line in December 1941, there is no evidence that it performed special operations and it's achievements are listed as rounding up 485 enemy agents, 69,753 deserters and 320,000 civilians. I think it should be in the game as a frozen unit, not released until the Axis closes in on Moscow (and ideally not to be moved west of the capital).

[Dreamslayer]

I agree that some of these NKVD units in the rear should be frozen. Also I can say that some data in Askey's book has incorrections, I guess it's ok for so huge and intricated OOB.

[56ajax]

And Askey is not a fan of the NKVD Divisions, discounts them by 10/15% in terms of performance, and states that the 114,000 NKVD personnel supplied to the Army to form 15 Army divisions in 1941 performed much better.

[Dreamslayer]

During my digging about NKVD I discovered missed Army HQ.

Army of NKVD forces (Armiya voysk NKVD) - 70th Army.

Started forming by GKO's order on 14 October 1942. HQ in Sverdlovsk, 6 divisions in 6 large cities in the rear (about divisions maybe will be later).
From 1 February 1943 was transferred to RKKA and moved to Central Front. On 5 February 1943 was renamed to 70th Army.

[Dreamslayer]

NKVD operative(internal) forces (part 4).

(from 1942 only about division/brigade size units)

On 13 April 1942 was formed rifle brigades(each had Shtat about 5k men total):
16th - Yaroslavl
17th - Ivanovo
18th - Kazan
19th - Kuybyshev
20th - Penza
21th - Tambov
22th - Balashov
23th – Zagorsk

On 9 May was formed 13th MRD.
28 July was transferred to RKKA, 2 August was reformed to 95th RD(2nd forming).

On 16 June on basis of 3rd "Security"brigade was formed 3rd rifle brigade.
On 19 June 22th rifle brigade was disbanded.

On 10 August in Caucasus was formed :
Ordzhonikidze RD
Makhachkala RD
Tbilisi RD
3rd rifle brigade was reformed to Grozny RD

3rd RD(21th MRD) and 9th MRD in August was transferred to RKKA.

On 20 August 4th MRD was disbanded.

On September 12th RD was reformed to 22th rifle brigade.

On 24 September Sukhumi RD was included to VV NKVD.

On 11 October was formed Kutaisi rifle brigade.

On 22 October was formed 24th rifle brigade(Kuybyshev) and 25th rifle brigade(Penza).

On 16 November 22th rifle brigade was disbanded.

On 11 December 11th RD was disbanded.

On 24 December was disbanded 18th rifle brigade.

On 6 January 1943 Makhachkala RD was disbanded.

On 26 January Kutaisi rifle brigade was renamed to 18th rifle brigade.

On 18 March was formed Special(Osobaya) RD in Krasnodar.

On 14 June Special(Osobaya) RD was disbanded.

On 29 March 1944 Grozny RD was renamed to 8th RD, Ordzhonikidze RD to 9th RD. Tbilisi RD was disbanded.

On 14 October was formed Consolidated(Svodnaya) RD.

During December 1944 – February 1945 was formed 57th-63th and 65th-66th RDs, Special(Osobaya) RD was renamed to 64th RD.